vision 0 #26 April 30, 2014 Quoteactually, it's the fact that every other option is worse. I beg to differ. QuoteWhy are you making this the US versus BRIC? The topic at hand is Russher versus the world (minus China who couldn't give a fuck). I am not, I am pointing out the implications of the US isolationist sanctions. The bigger picture. BRIC is probably less prudent than SCO at this stage, but in the longer term the populations and economies of all these countries will become very important indeed.. As I already pointed out, the US and coalition equipment was transported through both BRIC and SCO states to Afghanistan. This would not be happening again at the current rate. BRIC becomes more important when one considers the economic sanctions and who has financial ties to whom. People are lead to beleive the Russia will be left on its own due to these sanctions, it is actually quite the opposite. China will likely be the worlds largest economy by the end of the year and India will be coming in years to come with a faster growing population than China. The EU countries are clearly apprehensive about such sanctions as they will freeze next winter if Russia turns the gas off. EU economies will also suffer without the all important energy. I believe it will be the USA that will end up isolated from the rest of the world if Washington do not buck up their ideas, these sanctions are like shooting your foot with a shotcun at point blank as far as I can see. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #27 April 30, 2014 The other issue is that Russia supplies Western Europe with the bulk of its natural gas. ergo NATO is reluctant to push back too hard, for fear that they will freeze in the dark. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #28 April 30, 2014 It is amazing how many different versions of the story you hear from different people. For example, when I asked a Belarus-born co-worker, he said that Russia was perfectly to its rights to pressure the Ukraine. Russia historically fears invasion from the West. Russia has been invaded by: Vikings, Poland, Sweden, Estonia, France (circa 1800), Turkey, Germany (1914 and 1941) and more times by the Mongol Hordes (starting in 1223) than we can count! Currently, Russia fears that a Western-biased Ukraine will invite NATO to base troops on Ukrainian soil, far too close to Russia for comfort. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #29 April 30, 2014 The third version of the story comes from a Ukrainian-born skydiver. Back during the 1980s, he joined the Russian merchant-marine, but jumped ship ... er ...swam ashore in Vancouver. He still fears Russian communists because he cannot see a difference between the historical excesses of Tsarist Russia and Communist Russia and Putin-ruled Russia. Then his rant turned racist, when he said that Putin is not even white, rather Putin looks more like a Mongol. "And you look at Stalin ... he is not white either. Sure Stalin may have gotten his start in Georgia, but if you look closely, his family is not from Georgia. Stalin killed or deported how many million Ukrainians in the purges leading up to World War 2? What happened to all the Crimean Tartars deported during WW2? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #30 April 30, 2014 Let's compare the current confusion in the Ukraine with historical confusion in Estonia. Estonians have historically resisted "Christianisation" whether Teutonic Knights were trying to impose Roman Catholicism from the West or Russians were trying to impose Eastern orthodox Christianity from the South East. Eventually, Russia Tsar Peter the Great pushed Russian influence far enough North that they were able to dredge a Port at St. Petersburg ... right next door to Estonia. Estonians stubbornly clung to their Finno-Urgic language and traditions. Estonia was forcibly absorbed into Communist Russia. During World War 2, thousands of Estonians joined the German SS ... not because they were fascists ... rather, they were trying to push Bolsheviks farther east, away from the Estonian border. Estonia suffered about 250,000 casualties during WW2 and in the immediate post-war years as Stalin punished them for backing Germany. When Russia occupied Estonia, they moved in thousands upon thousands of Russian-speaking soldiers and sailors and administrators. Fast-forward to the collapse of the Berlin Wall, thousands of Russian-speaking immigrants had lived in Estonia for a generation or three, controlling the country from their upper-middle-class positions. When Estonians regained control, they wrote a new constitution that required voters to read and write Estonian. The Estonian Parliament even imported an Estonian-speaking Prime Minister who had spent the intervening few decades in Canada. What an outrage! Russian-speaking Estonians were not sure which was worse: losing their communist pensions or losing their power. The same thing has recently happened in the Crimean provinces of the Ukraine. Ever since the Crimean War (mid-1980s), Russia has expanded its military presance on the Black Sea by importing thousands upon thousands of ethnic Russian sailors and soldiers to the Crimean. Eventually, ethnic Russians out-numbered Ukrainian-speakers in the Eastern Provinces of the Ukraine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vision 0 #31 May 2, 2014 QuoteWashington may soon find it problematic to continue launching its military satellites, as a long-time supply connection between Russian and US defense companies has been halted and is being reviewed – all because of sanctions against Moscow in connection with the Ukrainian crisis. Earlier ordered by US Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, the review of US Air Force dependence on the Russian-made RD-180 engine, used in American Atlas V rockets, has not yielded any solutions. “We don’t have a great solution. We haven’t made any decisions yet,” Frank Kendall, the US undersecretary of defense for acquisition, was quoted as saying by Bloomberg in a Thursday article. The defense official spoke to the outlet after testifying before a Senate committee on the matter on Wednesday. http://rt.com/news/156248-russian-rocket-engines-pentagon/ Rammifications of knee jerks come back to bite... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #32 May 2, 2014 Whae exactly would you have the US / Eu do? You've rambled on about petrochemical economies, but haven't provided any idea of your own. skyrad's right. Nobody's going to war over the Ukraine. That might come back to bite us in the ass eventually if Russia see it as a license to expand more, but for now, it's simply not going to happen. Nobody in the world wants to risk a conflict that could potentially expand into something larger at the moment. That's a fact. So given that fact, what would you do, other than sitting around ringing your hands? Would you say and do nothing? Are you advocating more aggressive military options? Personally, I think either are stupid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vision 0 #33 May 2, 2014 QuoteWhae exactly would you have the US / Eu do? Mayby excercise a little diplomacy? Encourage discussion? Condemn violence rather than incite it? At the moment they are just poking the stick into the hornets nest and making up and defending lies. QuoteYou've rambled on about petrochemical economies, but haven't provided any idea of your own. Read the first three lines I have written above... There was an agreement made in Geneva recently, do you know about that? Why does the US send over officials and immeitely after Kiev goes at it? Where do they get their encouragement from? Quoteskyrad's right. Nobody's going to war over the Ukraine. That might come back to bite us in the ass eventually if Russia see it as a license to expand more, but for now, it's simply not going to happen. Right this minute Ukraine is going to war over Ukraine. The future will tell you that you are quite wrong there and it will bite everyone in the ass. Not just the US and co. QuoteNobody in the world wants to risk a conflict that could potentially expand into something larger at the moment. That's a fact. I would ask the CEO's of lockheed martin and the many other military contractors that same question over a couple of quiet drinks... QuoteSo given that fact, what would you do, other than sitting around ringing your hands? I would encourage diplomacy and discussion and an election with the potential for referendums. It is clear that the majority of Ukraine were unhappy with the previous corrupt government. This bares no reflection on the level of satisfaction that the population has in the Rebels that movd in an ceazed power illegally. A open fair vote is the way of democracy, not a coup. QuoteWould you say and do nothing? Are you advocating more aggressive military options? Personally, I think either are stupid. I am sure this question has been answered. The agreements made in Geneva on the 17th of April have not been met by Kiev, Neither have they been supported by the US or the EU. It is quite clear that conflict is wanted by these parties. I think they all know damned well that an election now will oust the rougues in Kiev. Once again this is about energy and influence. There is much more to it than the rhetoric we are being told on the news by all sides of the story. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vision 0 #34 May 4, 2014 QuoteNothing (global) will come of anything going on over there. Everything that is happening right now is slight-of-hand. It's an illusion to something else that is happening that has nothing to do with nothing. Looks like I am nt the only one connecting the dots. http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/column-us-could-bring-about-its-own-decline-1983870 pretty much the same as what I was saying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,384 #35 May 7, 2014 About that Crimean referendum: http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/putins-human-rights-council-accidentally-posts-real-crimean-election-results-only-15-voted-for-annexation/ "There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vision 0 #36 May 11, 2014 QuoteResidents of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions in east Ukraine are casting their ballots today in a referendum on whether the regions should declare sovereignty and break away from Kiev. http://rt.com/on-air/ukraine-referendum-sovereignty/ So I guess this will be portrayed as a scam of the Kremlin and that all these 'residents' are actually Russian insurgents, but the western media. There is no way that Kiev would be on the offensive if they did not have assurance from the US and NATO to do so... The 'people of Ukraine would be running Ukraine in a heartbeat. The soldiers would defect in a heartbeat. It will be interesting to see what the results are and how they are reported. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vision 0 #37 May 11, 2014 QuoteAbout that Crimean referendum: http://www.forbes.com/...oted-for-annexation/ Lol one of the worst examples of journalism I have seen, no sources just click bait. What else would you expect from a puppet government propped up by a pupped government backed by a puppet government. The world is a joke these days, it is not the assholes ruining the place that are to fault either... ... it is the retards that simply allow it all to happen and even go so far as supporting it when they all know deep down inside that it is all a huge scam. Tell me one person that 'really' thinks that politicians tell the truth? Then show me evidence that politicians have a real incentive to tell the truth. Right now I am more inclined to believe 'the people'. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TriGirl 268 #38 May 11, 2014 visionQuoteResidents of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions in east Ukraine are casting their ballots today in a referendum on whether the regions should declare sovereignty and break away from Kiev. http://rt.com/on-air/ukraine-referendum-sovereignty/ So I guess this will be portrayed as a scam of the Kremlin and that all these 'residents' are actually Russian insurgents, but the western media. There is no way that Kiev would be on the offensive if they did not have assurance from the US and NATO to do so... The 'people of Ukraine would be running Ukraine in a heartbeat. The soldiers would defect in a heartbeat. It will be interesting to see what the results are and how they are reported. When your source is "Russia Today"? BTW, who are you? Please fill in your profile data. You seem to have registered an account just to talk about this issue, yet you won't let us understand your background/interest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vision 0 #39 May 11, 2014 Well the link showed you live footage of the ballot. it showed lots of people showing up to vote and leaving, all day. There was no article, so no reason to judge the footage by who was posting it. Do you really expect the western media to show footage of ordinary citizens showing up in droves to vote? https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t1.0-9/1511403_10152398670484411_7490534521998373527_n.jpg Why does it matter what my background is, or that of anyone reporting actual happenings with citations and evidence? I am very interested in this subject and it is apparent that the people on this website that are 'all about politics', seem to not want to talk about it. This is astonishing in itself. It is now confirmed that 400 Academi (former Blackwater) mercenaries are on the ground assisting Kiev. Ukraine is broke, is damming off the water supply to Crimea and is still receiving Gas from Russia. This will escalate and the billions being 'loaned' to Ukraine from the west will go to military actions, not paying off debt. The Ukrainians will suffer and this is sponsored by the west. Very sad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,255 #40 May 11, 2014 visionQuoteNothing (global) will come of anything going on over there. Everything that is happening right now is slight-of-hand. It's an illusion to something else that is happening that has nothing to do with nothing. Looks like I am nt the only one connecting the dots. http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/column-us-could-bring-about-its-own-decline-1983870 pretty much the same as what I was saying. Yeah, sure. Let's come back in 2 years and see where the dollar stands, m'kay?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vision 0 #41 May 11, 2014 A man was shot and killed at one of the polling stations. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VyeZSh2hqE https://twitter.com/A3AP/status/465534777865809920/photo/1 I guess this cannot be blamed on the 'separatists'. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vision 0 #42 May 11, 2014 QuoteWhen your source is "Russia Today"? Meanwhile on US media they cannot even get the continent right let alone the country. While they have the audacity to judge the neighboring countries (Russia) on their abilities to protect their 'homeland security'. http://rt.com/news/158252-ukraine-pakistan-cnn-mistake/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome Seriously, US media is a joke. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vision 0 #43 May 11, 2014 Here you go, so you Americans are still happy with supplying these murderers arms and money? Of course you are. You love supporting war criminals. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKHFgYCbgvI&feature=youtu.be yeah it is an RT link but once again, you will not see this on US media and there is a very good reason for that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #44 May 11, 2014 visionHere you go, so you Americans are still happy with supplying these murderers arms and money? Of course you are. You love supporting war criminals. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKHFgYCbgvI&feature=youtu.be yeah it is an RT link but once again, you will not see this on US media and there is a very good reason for that. Is it true you guys had Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf on your payroll?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 186 #45 May 11, 2014 visionQuoteWhen your source is "Russia Today"? Meanwhile on US media they cannot even get the continent right let alone the country. While they have the audacity to judge the neighboring countries (Russia) on their abilities to protect their 'homeland security'. http://rt.com/news/158252-ukraine-pakistan-cnn-mistake/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome Seriously, US media is a joke. In Izvestia there is no Pravda, in Pravda there is no Izvestia. Joke, no? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vision 0 #46 May 12, 2014 You guys...lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpPABLW6F_A I am born and raised in the western world. I am just sick and tired of seeing innocent people die for no reason other than lining the pockets of the wealthy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #47 May 12, 2014 visionYou guys...lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpPABLW6F_A I am born and raised in the western world. I am just sick and tired of seeing innocent people die for no reason other than lining the pockets of the wealthy. So... then I guess you are not with the people of the Ukraine... how is your supply of nanothermite??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vision 0 #48 May 12, 2014 QuoteSo... then I guess you are not with the people of the Ukraine... how is your supply of nanothermite??? Would you care to enlighten us/me about how these people engaging on their own citizens represent the Ukrainian people? They bust in with molotov cocktails, remove a democratically elected government (though very corrupt, who's isn't?) and are immediately supported by the west and given cookies from US officials... This whole thing is a farce and once again it is Joe citizen who pays the price and the elite reap the rewards in the form of energy and profit. How does the western involvement have anything to do with the 'people' of Ukraine? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #49 May 12, 2014 Interesting..... so Comrade PutIn inciting his ethnic stooges for the last.... how many years now???? had no effect on who had come to power?? How many billions did Comrade PutIn siphon off from the Olympics??? I would tend to think if you were such a crusader against corruption you would at least castigate your fearless leader. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vision 0 #50 May 12, 2014 QuoteInteresting..... so Comrade PutIn inciting his ethnic stooges for the last.... how many years now???? had no effect on who had come to power?? Whether or not that is true, do you honesty see that as a legitimate excuse for backing a coup appointed, far right, nazi sympathizers that shoot their own countrymen while unarmed? Really? QuoteHow many billions did Comrade PutIn siphon off from the Olympics??? Not really worth discussing. QuoteI would tend to think if you were such a crusader against corruption you would at least castigate your fearless leader. Not my leader. And Russia is far from being free of corruption but when you compare to the United Stasi of America and it's crusades over the past decade... Well we will not mention the hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians killed for the profit of some elite assholes. Drone strike on a wedding anyone? This thread is about Ukraine, please keep to the subject and stop the straw man techniques. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
