Another good court ruling

[wmw999 2,145]

One way to reduce the number significantly would be to simply offer $1000 to anyone who left the country voluntarily at their own expense. Of course, then there's still the issue of the porous border, because many of those people can still come back.

Is there a realistic plan to secure the border completely? BTW, we have to include people who came legally and overstay their visas.

We have an attractive country. It's why the vast majority of our ancestors came. How unattractive do we want to make it to ensure that no one comes in? At what cost to the rest of us?

I'm not saying that we don't have an illegal immigrant problem. I am saying that it's not simple to resolve; it'll be expensive, and it'll be unpleasant for a number of people. If you're only willing for it to be unpleasant for others, then it's not a realistic plan. E.g. being able to question people who look brown just because they look brown; house-to-house searches; a giant Berlin-wall type of structure with machine gun turrets along the border.

And, BTW, the cost of removing all illegals is that the price of many goods goes up, because all of a sudden many employers who do cash-only business with little in the way of safety will have to ramp up their safety (and costs) because they won't be able to count on a workforce that's scared to sue.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 1,643]

Another good ruling.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[PiLFy 0]

"I'm not saying that we don't have an illegal immigrant problem. I am saying that it's not simple to resolve; it'll be expensive, and it'll be unpleasant for a number of people. If you're only willing for it to be unpleasant for others, then it's not a realistic plan. E.g. being able to question people who look brown just because they look brown; house-to-house searches; a giant Berlin-wall type of structure with machine gun turrets along the border."

I wouldn't have a problem w/any of that. In fact, I'd say it's long overdue...

I'm of the opinion that we can't afford not to. If the Nazis could pull it off in '40s Europe. We can certainly do a better job, today. Here's to hoping we can abolish H1Bs along w/this.

[wmw999 2,145]

OK, I'm going to forgo the obvious Nazi cheap shot.

But one thing to consider is that the Germany of the 1930's was a country that people were trying to get out of, not into.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[PiLFy 0]

wmw999

OK, I'm going to forgo the obvious Nazi cheap shot.

But one thing to consider is that the Germany of the 1930's was a country that people were trying to get out of, not into.

Wendy P.

It wasn't a cheap shot (?). They had far less technology than we do, now. The Jews weren't trying to get out. They were hiding. They were found & deported. If that was done w/paper ledgers & steam powered trains. I'd say we can do markedly better, nowadays.

[turtlespeed 212]

wmw999

OK, I'm going to forgo the obvious Nazi cheap shot.

But one thing to consider is that the Germany of the 1930's was a country that people were trying to get out of, not into.

Wendy P.

And it was socialist.

That is where we are headed.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[wmw999 2,145]

The cheap shot would be mine, saying that aspiring to do as well as the Nazis isn't a very admirable goal.

As far as the Jews trying to escape, well, they weren't allowed to leave without another country being willing to take them, and as Jews in a prejudiced time, that was hard. Do we want to emulate that? Papers were required to travel. Do we want to emulate that? Or only for people who look like they might be Hispanic?

Cost of deportation is low when you load people into cattle cars without food or water and ship them a few hundred miles to whichever camp. It's a little higher when the distances are greater, and when you actually want them to survive.

And Turtle, the only thing socialist (by current definitions) about the Nazis was the name.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[PiLFy 0]

Who said anything about replicating the Final Solution ?? I'm comparing technologies, nothing more.

This Country has many problems. A number of those problems could be improved by ridding ourselves of the estimated 20 million people who don't belong here.

[kallend 1,643]

turtlespeed

***OK, I'm going to forgo the obvious Nazi cheap shot.

But one thing to consider is that the Germany of the 1930's was a country that people were trying to get out of, not into.

Wendy P.

And it was socialist.



Your grasp of history is seriously deficient.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Bolas 5]

PiLFy

Who said anything about replicating the Final Solution ?? I'm comparing technologies, nothing more.

This Country has many problems. A number of those problems could be improved by ridding ourselves of the estimated 20 million people who don't belong here. are here illegally.

FIFY. Do see your point but when using the Nazis as your template...

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[wmw999 2,145]

I'm interested in where you got the number of 20 million. Estimates I see show in the low teens (if there), based on Pew Research Hispanic Studies Center. I see in the Washington Times that an association of former Border Patrol agents estimates closer to 20 million, but there doesn't seem to be any basis for that number, other than they think so.

I know that we were shipping more people back to country of origin under Bush, but they were voluntary (i.e. they just went back -- there was no processing, taking of names, or potential for future sanctions). We're forcibly deporting a lot more people now, running them through deportation centers.

Unless we get complete control of our border, the only way to make the US less of a target for illegal aliens is to either

make the US less attractive (which would probably make it less attractive for citizens, too)

make the countries of origin more attractive, which would mean more aid to those countries, most probably in the form of infrastructure improvements. Much of Latin America has a serious corruption problem, with far more serious financial stratification than there is in the US; that makes it a very unattractive place in which to be poor.

Sealed borders are difficult to maintain, and are generally associated with police states. Personally, I don't want to live in a police state, or even one where it's OK for me because I'm blond, but wouldn't be if I were hispanic.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[PiLFy 0]

"FIFY. Do see your point but when using the Nazis as your template..."

Once again, I wasn't abvocating that we all run out & buy armbands. It was merely a reference to technological improvements.

[PiLFy 0]

"I'm interested in where you got the number of 20 million."

Multiple Net & Media sources often cite 12-20 million as the approximate amount. Given the Govt.'s pentient for lying about figures, I wouldn't be surprised if it's much higher. Anchor Babies would be an example of that. They're also illegal, & shouldn't be here. Illegal immigrants utilizing American health care, paid for by American Welfare, don't have American citizens pop out...

"We're forcibly deporting a lot more people now, running them through deportation centers."

A lot more ?? There were some high profile raids done during the run up to an election year. Then, Crickets... Obamanos had the audacity to order a complete halt of them. The forced deportations were never more than a drop in the bucket. That's why Arizona finally started doing the Fed's job, for them.

"make the US less attractive (which would probably make it less attractive for citizens, too)
make the countries of origin more attractive, which would mean more aid to those countries, most probably in the form of infrastructure improvements."

Why the Hell would the US do either?? We're certainly not going to turn the country into another Third World rat hole . It isn't our responsibility to rebuild/reform other Nations (equally ), either.

"Personally, I don't want to live in a police state, or even one where it's OK for me because I'm blond, but wouldn't be if I were hispanic."

I'd say we already live in more of a police state than you realize. The Govt. just wants one w/cheap labor that comes w/porous borders.

You're always free to renounce your citizenship, Wendy. The time when PC BS would deflect focus on this problem is long past. Hispanics comprise the largest illegal immigration population. Checking identities on little old white women won't help us find illegal Hispanics...

[Amazon 7]

PiLFy

Who said anything about replicating the Final Solution ?? I'm comparing technologies, nothing more.

This Country has many problems. A number of those problems could be improved by ridding ourselves of the estimated 20 million people who don't belong here.

Would that be all the people who do claim to be Americans.. yet can not tolerate the constitution??

[PiLFy 0]

Amazon

***Who said anything about replicating the Final Solution ?? I'm comparing technologies, nothing more.

This Country has many problems. A number of those problems could be improved by ridding ourselves of the estimated 20 million people who don't belong here.

Would that be all the people who do claim to be Americans.. yet can not tolerate the constitution??

The Constitution doesn't support wholesale illegal immigration. In times of war, parts of The Constitution have been suspended. This is a war.

[Amazon 7]

PiLFy

******Who said anything about replicating the Final Solution ?? I'm comparing technologies, nothing more.

This Country has many problems. A number of those problems could be improved by ridding ourselves of the estimated 20 million people who don't belong here.

Would that be all the people who do claim to be Americans.. yet can not tolerate the constitution??

The Constitution doesn't support wholesale illegal immigration. In times of war, parts of The Constitution have been suspended. This is a war.

Well now ain't that "convenient"

[PiLFy 0]

"Well now ain't that "convenient" "

Necessary. The madness wrought in this area might require the pendullum to swing the other way for a time. So it's always been so in history.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Quote

In times of war, parts of The Constitution have been suspended. This is a war.

Like the war on drugs?

"This is a war" has always been a convenient excuse for those who seek power without the messy complications of dealing with constitutional rights. It is a tool of bullies.

Quote

The Constitution doesn't support wholesale illegal immigration.

The Constitution doesn't say anything about "wholesale illegal immigration". The concept of illegal immigration would have been strange to the founders, as at that time you could just show up on some boat and be welcomed. Our convoluted and expensive immigration system is a relatively recent invention, basically designed to keep "undesirables" out. "Give us your poor, your huddled masses..." is ancient history.

The Constitution says not a whit about skydiving. By your logic, we could say the Constitution doesn't support skydiving. Do we really want to go down that road?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[PiLFy 0]

Quote

"Like the war on drugs?"

""This is a war" has always been a convenient excuse for those who seek power without the messy complications of dealing with constitutional rights. It is a tool of bullies."

That's lame, Don. As lame as the War on Drugs ever was. There comes a time when survival of the Nation outweighs the offending of some people's sensitivities. Those Times are usually brought about when bad people hide behind the rules of law (which they hijacked).

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"Our convoluted and expensive immigration system is a relatively recent invention, basically designed to keep "undesirables" out. "Give us your poor, your huddled masses..." is ancient history."

Unfettered Migration ended w/WW1. The need for control seen then didn't include a number of contemporary threats we now have. I'm aware of the history.

The longer this threat is allowed to grow, unchecked? The more extreme the inevitable response will be. That's how some really bad shit has happened in history, Don. Not taking care of business now will bring us there, as well.

Quote

"The Constitution says not a whit about skydiving. By your logic, we could say the Constitution doesn't support skydiving. Do we really want to go down that road?"

What kind of Logic are you working with, Don? Are You suggesting we hold everything in this country static to a 1700's template ? It wouldn't be possible to build walls that tall & strong. That's even more laughable than Wendy's idea of turning the USA into another Third World sewer .

Put down the debate book, Don...

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Quote

There comes a time when survival of the Nation outweighs the offending of some people's sensitivities.

Tearing up the bill of rights is hardly just "offending some people's sensitivities". If you are so scared of brown people that you are willing to do that, the USA is already dead to you.

Quote

The need for control seen then didn't include a number of contemporary threats we now have.

Indeed. Cheap labor to pluck chickens, pick fruit, and shingle roofs is obviously a treat that merits warrant-less searches, detaining people without probable cause (unless looking "foreign" is construed to be probable cause), and hurricane wire and armed guard posts on every inch of border (including the entire coast line I presume, so they can't get in by boat).

Quote

What kind of Logic are you working with, Don?

Exactly the same "logic" you employ to conclude that the constitution supports suspending basic rights to fight illegal immigration.

Quote

Are You suggesting we hold everything in this country static to a 1700's template ?

Once again we see your contempt for the Constitution on display.

If you want to change the Constitution to allow the measures you suggested to Wendy to combat illegal immigration, there is an established procedure for repealing the Bill of Rights. You should probably start with the 2nd amendment, because once you get to the police kicking in doors to search for jews undocumented immigrants you'll have fewer problems if you've disarmed the population first. Good luck with that.

Quote

That's even more laughable than Wendy's idea of turning the USA into another Third World sewer .

Wendy suggested no such thing. That idea resides entirely in your own mind. It is a creation of your own fears and prejudices.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[PiLFy 0]

Quote

"Tearing up the bill of rights is hardly just "offending some people's sensitivities". If you are so scared of brown people that you are willing to do that, the USA is already dead to you."

That's amusing, Don. You sincerely believe the bad people in Washington haven't been shitting al over that glorious document for decades??? They've made the mess. It's gonna be a bit messy cleaning it up. You can cast the blame where it belongs, up on The Hill.

Quote

"Indeed. Cheap labor to pluck chickens, pick fruit, and shingle roofs is obviously a treat that merits warrant-less searches, detaining people without probable cause (unless looking "foreign" is construed to be probable cause), and hurricane wire and armed guard posts on every inch of border (including the entire coast line I presume, so they can't get in by boat)."

Throwing up a few menial jobs as the extent of the damages done only shows your insincerity, or limited understanding of the bigger picture.

I'll save you from making another Nazi reference. Aktionen wouldn't be necessary, either. It could be done much better.

Secure Borders wouldn't require a new Great Wall, only a Federal Govt. that actually enforces the laws they circumvent & ignore. But, love the imagery, Don...

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"Exactly the same "logic" you employ to conclude that the constitution supports suspending basic rights to fight illegal immigration."

Using debating Rhetoric isn't being logical. Not unless your aim is merely to TROLL.

Quote

"Once again we see your contempt for the Constitution on display."

Dead wrong, Don. You'll have to look very far to find someone w/more respect for that document. More of your debating BS won't change what I've already said on this.

Quote

"there is an established procedure for repealing the Bill of Rights."

Yeah, throw money at the Lobbyists on The Hill, to throw money at the Assholes on The Hill... There's already been far too much of that. The Document isn't the problem, the usurpers are.

Quote

"You should probably start with the 2nd amendment,"

More debating BS ... Try crawling in my window, or kicking in my door, Don. You'll see where I stand on the Second.

Quote

"Wendy suggested no such thing. That idea resides entirely in your own mind. It is a creation of your own fears and prejudices."

Yes, Wendy did say that as one possibility for solving the problem. She said one option is our making this country so unattractive that illegals won't want to come here. An entirely unrealistic position.

Do you have any valid points to make here, Don? Or, are you content to spew meaningless BS??

[wmw999 2,145]

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting that we do away with our infrastructure, just that turning it into a police state, maybe with papers required of everyone, would make it far less attractive to people without papers.

Do you have specific ideas about how to easily control the border? Remember we have one with Canada, as well as one with Mexico.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[PiLFy 0]

wmw999

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting that we do away with our infrastructure, just that turning it into a police state, maybe with papers required of everyone, would make it far less attractive to people without papers.

Do you have specific ideas about how to easily control the border? Remember we have one with Canada, as well as one with Mexico.

Wendy P.

OK, I just re-read your posts. I misunderstood your point. The mere enforcing of labor laws was enough to deter the overwhelming majority of Illegals from staying in I forgot which state (happened a few years ago). It was in the Southwest or Southeast. It wouldn't take Gestapo demanding identity papers in every town.

Suggestions for the porous Borders? We have four: Mexican, Canadian, Atlantic, & Pacific (oh, + Californica ). We've got all kinds of high tech gizmos in this country. It's time to use some of them for more than spying on our own citizens. It's time the Feds utilize our resources to do their damn jobs. Electronic sensors & satellite imagery can cover the land borders very effectively. Shoreline borders will be harder to police. If They can't find work once they get here, or pop out anchor babies (), though. They'll quickly see the futility of coming here. Right now, border control in this country is a joke. It's maintained that way because the Feds want it that way. We could do a far better job @the current spending levels.

You probably don't know this, but I'm bilingual Spanish, & not biased against Hispanics. Most Spanish people I chat with would love it if their own countries fixed their problems. Denying them the pressure valve of coming here would hasten long overdue reforms in Central & South America.

[SkyDekker 1,139]

PiLFy

"Well now ain't that "convenient" "

Necessary. The madness wrought in this area might require the pendullum to swing the other way for a time. So it's always been so in history.

Your Nazi quote was a propos. This sentiment is exactly what Hitler was creating. Find an identifyable group to blame all the negatives on.

[DanG 1]

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Your Nazi quote was a propos. This sentiment is exactly what Hitler was creating. Find an identifyable group to blame all the negatives on.

BLAME CANADA!!!

- Dan G