Mass Acceptance Of Electric Cars Would Have Little Impact On US Emissions

[brenthutch 383]

Quote

There is no direct connection from the diesel engine to the wheels.

The wheels are driven by electric motors, which provide the torque. The source of the electrons is immaterial to my statement.

And your statement is immaterial to the topic of the original post. Your "logic" (LOL), would suggest that because electric power is clean, it does not matter how it is produced.

[kallend 1,623]

brenthutch

Quote

There is no direct connection from the diesel engine to the wheels.

The wheels are driven by electric motors, which provide the torque. The source of the electrons is immaterial to my statement.

And your statement is immaterial to the topic of the original post. Your "logic" (LOL), would suggest that because electric power is clean, it does not matter how it is produced.

So you didn't read the flow of the thread and consequently make an idiotic comment. My post had nothing whatever to do with how clean the electrons are. It was 100% about the torque produced by electric motors.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sfzombie13 307]

and speaking of this torque, have you seen the size of these electric motors that pull trains? i have, and unless they are magicians, they won't fit in a truck that goes down the highway. at least if they want to haul any freight. due simply to weight restrictions. 80,000 lbs gvw is the limit, around 35,000 lbs of this is already the truck. so, unless they get very small, you'll have trucks hauling nothing but themselves.

and the slogans about 450 miles for a ton of freight by train only works when you put several hundred thousand tons (or some such huge number) on a single train. but, like most things that sound good, it has been translated to mean it's very efficient. it's better than a lot of things, but have you seen the train tracks that lead to the doors of every retail shop or store in america? trucks get the freight to them.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[champu 1]

sfzombie13

and speaking of this torque, have you seen the size of these electric motors that pull trains? i have, and unless they are magicians, they won't fit in a truck that goes down the highway. at least if they want to haul any freight. due simply to weight restrictions. 80,000 lbs gvw is the limit, around 35,000 lbs of this is already the truck. so, unless they get very small, you'll have trucks hauling nothing but themselves.

Have you seen the size of these electric motors that pull slot cars?

Now think: "...and anywhere in between."

[billvon 2,400]

>have you seen the size of these electric motors that pull trains? i have, and
>they are magicians, they won't fit in a truck that goes down the highway.

Now take a look at the motor on a Tesla. A motor the size of a big coffee can that can generate 400 horsepower. Two of them and you've got most big rigs on the road today beat.

> 80,000 lbs gvw is the limit, around 35,000 lbs of this is already the truck. so, unless
>they get very small, you'll have trucks hauling nothing but themselves.

400hp Tesla motors weigh 70 pounds. Two of them gets you up to 140 pounds. What does a typical truck engine weigh?

[PiLFy 0]

Why the resistance? Technologies get smaller w/time & development. Comparing locomotive applications w/OTR trucks is definitely Apples N Oranges. Even if we could only start w/a 20% reduction in greenhouse gases? It's a 20% reduction, & only a start. Been to China, lately???

Have you ever seen one of these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2JkMCzjTVE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqlyG-HIB5k

My last Suzuki was a 1200, & went 0-60 in 2.8 (when stock ).

[PiLFy 0]

billvon

>have you seen the size of these electric motors that pull trains? i have, and
>they are magicians, they won't fit in a truck that goes down the highway.

Now take a look at the motor on a Tesla. A motor the size of a big coffee can that can generate 400 horsepower. Two of them and you've got most big rigs on the road today beat.

> 80,000 lbs gvw is the limit, around 35,000 lbs of this is already the truck. so, unless
>they get very small, you'll have trucks hauling nothing but themselves.

400hp Tesla motors weigh 70 pounds. Two of them gets you up to 140 pounds. What does a typical truck engine weigh?

Oh no . Here come the Fire Extinguisher jokes...

[airdvr 197]

Quote

Now take a look at the motor on a Tesla. A motor the size of a big coffee can that can generate 400 horsepower. Two of them and you've got most big rigs on the road today beat.

I'm sure all of the manufacturers will be moving their operations within 300 miles of where they ship.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 2,400]

>I'm sure all of the manufacturers will be moving their operations within 300 miles of where they ship.

Or will just electrify the highways they ship on most often. Saving even 10% of their 24 BILLION dollar annual fuel bill might be attractive to even the most brown of big box companies.

http://www.google.com/...vm=bv.59930103,d.cGU

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

Now take a lookat the motor on a Tesla. A motor the size of a big coffee can that can generate 400 horsepower. Two of them and you've got most big rigs on the road today beat.

but not close on torque which is the relevant figure here.

It helps that electric motors get full torque at 0.

[billvon 2,400]

>but not close on torque which is the relevant figure here.

?? Electric motors have far superior torque curves to diesels. Diesel tractors get torque through gearing, not their engines; a one-speed tractor would be useless (whereas most Teslas are one speed and they do quite well.) I'd expect an electric or hybrid tractor to use a pretty simple gearbox (3 or 4 speed) to get the torque they need.

[kawisixer01 0]

RobertMBlevins

Electric cars are nothing new, but it's only been recently that they have begun to be even remotely practical. And there are so many implications regarding them. More than people think. And like any new technology that is being aggressively pursued, two things are bound to happen.

First, the technology will improve and become more diverse. Second, the technology will become cheaper and easier to use. Television is a good example. Back in 1969, you could buy a 25" Curtis Mathes color TV with a record player and a stereo, but it would cost you $850. That is the equivelent of $5,400 today. (source: Inflation Calculator dot com) These days, you can buy a hi-def flatscreen of moderate size, (but bigger than 25") with a modest home theater system for LESS than $850. And that would be the equivelent of less than $200 easily back in 1969. This proves as technology gets better, it often gets cheaper. The same will happen with electric cars, because like TV's, they are a universally marketable item for most people.

The price of fuel, and the ongoing decline in worldwide production, (eight of ten of the largest oilfields on Earth reached peak oil more than twenty years ago) will drive the effort to make electric cars both practical and affordable.

Here are some things you might not have considered regarding electric cars:

1) The two main problems with them are range and cost. But as the tech improves, those problems will undoubtably be solved. It's market-driven. As the tech gets better and the cost gets cheaper, the prices will drop. Just like the prices on energy-efficient bulbs will drop as the US goes mainstream on getting rid of incandescent.

2) It's going to get a lot quieter when electric takes over. Imagine a freeway of nearly silent electric cars. Instead of car noises on the freeway, all you will hear is futuristic humming and probably other peoples' stereo systems.

3) The methods on how you provide power for your electric car are going to become a LOT more varied. They will provide you (or you can purchase) matching cord connections that will charge your vehicle from almost any electric source. This will include things as varied as solar panels at your house, any electric outlet, maybe even a charger outlet built into your exercise bike. While you do your workout, your car is charged. If you don't drive much, they could just put solar into the roof of the car and maybe it's charged up in a week. No doubt people will come up all kinds of ways to charge their vehicles without having to pay the power company, or at least avoid it whenever possible.

4) Battery life? The Toyota Prius, a hybrid not strictly electric, has a battery pack. It came out in 1997. Toyota claims that not a single battery pack in a Prius has ever needed replacement because the batteries just 'wore out' and wouldn't take a charge. (Replacements due to accident damage are not counted) Some cab companies have put more than 400,000 miles on a Prius. The most famous is a cab company in Toronto. And battery tech is getting better all the time. Duracell, a smaller example, recently released a version of their household batteries that claim to hold their charge new for ten years. This type of tech, increased capacity and longer life, is bound to improve for the batteries used in electric cars.

5) Our two biggest trade deficits are imports from China and the importation of foreign oil. Getting off the foreign oil and converting the USA to mainstream electric and renewal energy to produce that electric power will boost the US economy to record levels, and decrease CO-2 emissions.

It's the future. We didn't get the flying cars we were promised back in the 1960's, but we might be able to get off the oil junkie habit. Burning crude oil to move us around was always a temporary solution anyway. We knew it would end when the oil ran out. As a bonus answer to those who say, 'but how will we PRODUCE all the electric needed to run ALL those cars,' there is a partial answer. Once the US completes the conversion to energy-efficient bulbs and ditches incandescent 100% nationwide, the energy savings will be enormous.

EDIT: I thought this post was good enough to make into an article for my Newsvine column. I made some minor changes and even added pictures.

Not to nickpick....but at least around here... car noise on the road is mostly the noise of the tires on the road complimented by the surface condition of the road and the noise of the vehicle forcing itself through the air. That is hardly going to be eliminated. In the north there is no way around needing tires with some bite to get through snow, slush, and ice and that results in the majority of the buzz or whine as a car flies down the highway. And I'm sure as the drag coefficients get better, wind noise will reduce. But these days very little noise comes from the exhaust or intake of a vehicle. Most of the new vehicles I'm standing next to I can't even hear them running. I was amazed even how quiet the Dodge HD Diesel I was next to the other day was. The thing was nearly silent, and apparently the exhaust additive was doing pretty good because I couldn;t smell a thing coming from that truck.

[kallend 1,623]

kelpdiver

***

Now take a lookat the motor on a Tesla. A motor the size of a big coffee can that can generate 400 horsepower. Two of them and you've got most big rigs on the road today beat.

but not close on torque which is the relevant figure here.

It helps that electric motors get full torque at 0.

Common North American big rigs include 9, 10, 13, 15, and 18 speed transmissions. THAT is not an indication of a wonderful torque curve.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[PiLFy 0]

kallend

******

Now take a lookat the motor on a Tesla. A motor the size of a big coffee can that can generate 400 horsepower. Two of them and you've got most big rigs on the road today beat.

but not close on torque which is the relevant figure here.

It helps that electric motors get full torque at 0.

Common North American big rigs include 9, 10, 13, 15, and 18 speed transmissions. THAT is not an indication of a wonderful torque curve.

Most OTR trucks run eight or nine speed trannies. The lower gears are often skipped. 16+ speed Trannies are for extreme weight, starting on a hill.

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

>but not close on torque which is the relevant figure here.

?? Electric motors have far superior torque curves to diesels. Diesel tractors get torque through gearing, not their engines;

A typical semi with the 250hp engine you said two Teslas would blow away may be generating 1000 hp of torque, which is substantially higher than the tesla, which like most car engines, is more about top speed (HP) than pushing ability (torque).

As I clearly noted, the electric has the advantage of having all of its torque available at a standstill, but it still needs to be enough to push the load, or it will need gearing (or more torque) too.

The primary point was that comparing HP figures was fairly stupid.

[airdvr 197]

kelpdiver

***>but not close on torque which is the relevant figure here.

?? Electric motors have far superior torque curves to diesels. Diesel tractors get torque through gearing, not their engines;

A typical semi with the 250hp engine you said two Teslas would blow away may be generating 1000 hp of torque, which is substantially higher than the tesla, which like most car engines, is more about top speed (HP) than pushing ability (torque).

As I clearly noted, the electric has the advantage of having all of its torque available at a standstill, but it still needs to be enough to push the load, or it will need gearing (or more torque) too.

The primary point was that comparing HP figures was fairly stupid.

I'll bet the more torque required the more quickly the batteries will drain. Perhaps in the future when there is battery technology that would support big rigs. I don't see us stringing electrical lines on the interstates all across the county anytime soon.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 2,400]

>I'll bet the more torque required the more quickly the batteries will drain.

It's purely power. More power drain the batteries faster, less power drains the batteries slowly.

Batteries will not be a long distance truck shipping solution for a long time. However, as in hybrids, there is probably a lot to be gained by using them to boost conventional engines, and to power the truck when power is available.

> I don't see us stringing electrical lines on the interstates all across the county anytime soon.

There are plenty of rail lines that have done just that - and electrifying highways is a lot easier, since you don't need to electrify the whole corridor to have an effect.

Let's take Wal-Mart again. Let's say they do an analysis and realize that their Riverside distribution center sees a lot of truck traffic, and they realize that over 30% of it is within a 20 mile radius of road along the 215 and the 60. They might do the math and think "hmm, we could save $100 million a year in fuel costs by spending $1 billion electrifying just 80 miles of highway." They do so, and now their truck fleet uses the catenaries for those first and last 20 miles of every delivery. After 10 years they break even, and after that they have a competitive advantage.

Now Schneider wants to get involved. They put up their own catenaries near their hubs. Then they call up Wal-Mart and say "hey Wal-Mart, we're willing to pay you $1 per kilowatt-hour that we use from your catenaries." This helps Wal-Mart pay off their system sooner, and it helps Schneider reduce their fuel costs slightly.

After a few years of this, a third company realizes that places like Wal-Mart are making a little money doing this. So they do their own analysis and realize when you add ten shipping companies together, there is a stretch of I-80 that sees a lot of traffic. So they put up the catenaries there and charge $1 per kilowatt-hour.

And thus it goes.

[DJL 232]

Yup, the first thing I thought was that it doesn't do any good since we burn so much coal. Gotta go nuke.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

They might do the math and think "hmm, we could save $100 million a year in fuel costs by spending $1 billion electrifying just 80 miles of highway."

Is this cost estimate based on any real values, or just a WAG?

Freeway construction (which is many more lanes, but just concrete) is closer to a billion/mile these days. Earthquake safe power lines that won't fall and attack cars sounds expensive.

[grue 1]

airdvr

And we all know why we don't have more nuke power in the US. (hint: it wasn't conservatives that killed it in the 70's)

…go on…

cavete terrae.

[billvon 2,400]

>Freeway construction (which is many more lanes, but just concrete) is closer to a
>billion/mile these days.

Agreed - but that's for a new freeway, not for stringing a catenary over an existing highway,

> Earthquake safe power lines that won't fall and attack cars sounds expensive.

Hmm, they are currently up all over San Diego for the trolleys, and they don't seem to attack cars. The biggest issue with them is apparently fire access. When a fire starts on a building near a street with a trolley line, firefighters can't just put up a ladder anywhere on the street. That would seem to be less of an issue on a highway.

Catenary electrification cost $2.3 million/mile for the Boston to New Haven Acela line assuming "flat track" (i.e. no bridges, complex curves etc.) Let's double that for the two catenary lines required and double it again for the presumably more challenging environment of a highway (longer arms required, higher powers for multiple trucks, harder to maintain etc.) That brings us to $9.2 million per mile, pretty close to my $12.5 million per mile above.

[sfzombie13 307]

so that would make it a swag, not a wag. still, not too bad.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[airdvr 197]

45,000 miles of interstate...where will we get the electricity? We can't supply enough power to keep up with today's demands. Better start building those coal fired plants you love to hate.

Quote

It’s the Electric Grid, Stupid

If it happens [updating the power grid] on a large scale, it’s likely to be mostly a private industry effort. “We have not been able to keep up with construction over the past decade,” admits Chris Hickman, CEO of energy research firm Innovari. “Because of the absolute lack of direction from fed government, it’s created a dramatic level of uncertainty.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/09/09/major-power-outage-shows-weakness-of-aging-electric-infrastructure.html

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[base698 1]

Electric cars are cheaper to maintain with fewer moving parts. The high end ones are fun to drive--emissions impact is somewhere around 10th on the list for me and most of the others that bought a Tesla. I like the idea of using less oil from the mideast and instead use nuke or even coal locally.

If early adopters of the Model S and X end up funding a $30K - $40K car that's got twice as much inside room, effectively free to maintain and drive on their supercharger infrastructure that's going to be a huge problem for the current car companies. They have a lot to do to make that happen, but they are attacking the problem on all fronts and have been fairly successful.

[airdvr 197]

base698

Electric cars are cheaper to maintain with fewer moving parts. The high end ones are fun to drive--emissions impact is somewhere around 10th on the list for me and most of the others that bought a Tesla. I like the idea of using less oil from the mideast and instead use nuke or even coal locally.

If early adopters of the Model S and X end up funding a $30K - $40K car that's got twice as much inside room, effectively free to maintain and drive on their supercharger infrastructure that's going to be a huge problem for the current car companies. They have a lot to do to make that happen, but they are attacking the problem on all fronts and have been fairly successful.

I chuckle a bit when I hear you Teslaterians say you get the electricity for free. Nobody's getting anything for free. We'll see just how affordable Tesla makes things when the feds stop throwing money at them.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne