US "Default" is Inevitable

[kelpdiver 2]

davjohns

When you live within your means, you don't need great credit or much credit at all. Moreover, if you live within your means and pay your bills on time, your credit tends to take care of itself. I am told I have a great credit rating. I don't check it. I have no need for it.

While in principle that should be how it is, it's not. Identity fraud has become a serious problem, in large part because the creditors seem content to leave the problem to the victims, and just write off the losses (along with those people's FICO scores).

'If I'm not going to buy a home, does it matter?' Quite. It can affect your ability to get hired - some fields more than others. And it definitely can impact your insurance rates.

You can get a free credit report annually from each of the 3 bureaus. I'd suggest you get at least one every year or two and ensure nothing unseemly shows up.

Also, in our current state, even if you can buy a car with cash, if they're willing to finance it at 0 or 1%, why wouldn't you? Liquidity is great, or you can use that money for better returns than 1%.

Quote

I'm starting to see why we have a problem in the US. People think living in a budget deficit year after year is good.

Given a choice of a balanced budget, or lots of tax cuts, people have shown a strong preference for the latter.

[davjohns 1]

I agree with everything you say at an individual level. I'm not sure anyone could commit identity theft with the US Government. If they could...should we interfere? Certainly they can't do worse. lol

I agree with your assessment on tax cuts. I think we need to raise taxes and cut expenditures to close the gap and balance the budget. I think we need to start re-paying our debt.

I am completely un-electable by either party's standards.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[kelpdiver 2]

davjohns

I agree with everything you say at an individual level. I'm not sure anyone could commit identity theft with the US Government.

Didn't mean for it to be an analogy. I just strongly urge you to keep an eye on your credit reports at that ~yearly cadence. You may find yourself with a need to engage credit (and there are some good forms - like a home mortgage), or you just want to make sure someone take advantage of your name, and cost you.

[davjohns 1]

Agreed and thank you. Nice to see a little courtesy in SC. Pretty sure you'll be reprimanded for it shortly.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[weekender 0]

davjohns

When you live within your means, you don't need great credit or much credit at all. Moreover, if you live within your means and pay your bills on time, your credit tends to take care of itself. I am told I have a great credit rating. I don't check it. I have no need for it.

What I said was, "You don't need a great credit rating if you stop using credit. If you balance the budget and start paying back your debts, I'm pretty sure that will go well for your credit rating."

So...quit using credit and your credit rating is not as important. Get your house in order and pay your creditors; your credit rating will do better. And you take issue with this?

I'm starting to see why we have a problem in the US. People think living in a budget deficit year after year is good.

I don't think even John Maynard Keynes would have agreed his theories were perpetually applicable.

the gov't is not like a person, more like a large corporation. they cannot operate without credit. do you think there is a vault at Ford with cash to pay employees? or their suppliers? there is not. they use a combination of short and long term fixed income(bonds and notes) instruments to function. so does the the US gov't. it is not realistic to believe you can run a company or a nation on cash.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

Also, in our current state, even if you can buy a car with cash, if they're willing to finance it at 0 or 1%, why wouldn't you? Liquidity is great, or you can use that money for better returns than 1%.

You normally buy more than you need when you use credit... Human nature.

Quote

Given a choice of a balanced budget, or lots of tax cuts, people have shown a strong preference for the latter.

I'd be fine with some raises in taxes.... Provided it was not just going to be pissed away like it currently is. We pretty much HAVE to raise taxes to get out of the mess we are in. But raising taxes before we get ahead of spending stupidly will just mean we continue losing money.

[kelpdiver 2]

DaVinci

I'd be fine with some raises in taxes.... Provided it was not just going to be pissed away like it currently is. We pretty much HAVE to raise taxes to get out of the mess we are in. But raising taxes before we get ahead of spending stupidly will just mean we continue losing money.

What you want is a guarantee of sorts that the added revenue won't be used to fund pet projects of legislators. I think a considerable percentage of people (of those paying these taxes in the first place) would agree to pay more, but for their sense that Congress will always spend every dollar plus another dime or two.

[wmw999 2,122]

Yep, me too. And I have zero feeling that it will.

Just as someone who gets a bonus almost never puts it towards the bills -- they reward themselves first.

If ACA starts saving local hospital districts some money because there will be fewer uninsured patients, don't look for services to get cheaper; instead they'll now have money to do other stuff that they've been putting off. Not all of it's necessary stuff.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Skyrad 0]

wmw999

Where do you get that it was founded as a socialist republic? I haven't heard it described that way before.

Wendy P.

My bad I meant America (as in after the revolutionary war) rather than the United States.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[DaVinci 0]

kelpdiver

***
I'd be fine with some raises in taxes.... Provided it was not just going to be pissed away like it currently is. We pretty much HAVE to raise taxes to get out of the mess we are in. But raising taxes before we get ahead of spending stupidly will just mean we continue losing money.

What you want is a guarantee of sorts that the added revenue won't be used to fund pet projects of legislators. I think a considerable percentage of people (of those paying these taxes in the first place) would agree to pay more, but for their sense that Congress will always spend every dollar plus another dime or two.

Kind of... What I really want is the Federal Govt to be limited to the powers that the Constitution granted it. I want reckless spending cut and ridiculous programs dropped. Then after spending cuts are made, raise taxes to pay for the smaller govt and pay off the debt.

Your point is valid that I am not for higher taxes as long as I know the Govt will just increase spending.

I might even be OK with an increase in taxes that is ONLY allowed to be spent on the debt. But, I know that it will not work. Govt will send that money to the debt and then just spend more and take out more loans.

[kelpdiver 2]

DaVinci

Kind of... What I really want is the Federal Govt to be limited to the powers that the Constitution granted it. I want reckless spending cut and ridiculous programs dropped. Then after spending cuts are made, raise taxes to pay for the smaller govt and pay off the debt.

that day has sailed past. Too many people want every form of spending we have. For example, the Constitution granted the Feds the authority and duty to defend the country, but not to be the world Supercop. That's half a trillion dollars per year right there.

Social Security and Medicare promote the general welfare of the people, but cost a fortune - or rather, will when the demographics of retired to working stray too far.

After that, there's not a lot of spending to talk about.

[billvon 2,400]

>Kind of... What I really want is the Federal Govt to be limited to the powers that the
>Constitution granted it.

Agreed, and I would add that that's primarily reducing the power of the executive. That has been where most of the over-reach of authority has taken place (IMO.)

However that's fairly separate from:

>I want reckless spending cut and ridiculous programs dropped.

That's happened because people want stuff and they elect representatives that will get it for them. Most of the big programs (social security, medicare) have come in via constitutional means.

That raises the problem that the only way to make those big cuts is to somehow buck the democratic process and make them unilaterally. And perhaps that will be what it takes, but that means that the government has to take on powers that are NOT in the Constitution.

[kallend 1,623]

DaVinci

******
I'd be fine with some raises in taxes.... Provided it was not just going to be pissed away like it currently is. We pretty much HAVE to raise taxes to get out of the mess we are in. But raising taxes before we get ahead of spending stupidly will just mean we continue losing money.

What you want is a guarantee of sorts that the added revenue won't be used to fund pet projects of legislators. I think a considerable percentage of people (of those paying these taxes in the first place) would agree to pay more, but for their sense that Congress will always spend every dollar plus another dime or two.

Kind of... What I really want is the Federal Govt to be limited to the powers that the Constitution granted it. I want reckless spending cut and ridiculous programs dropped.

Like the F35 program, and the Ford class carriers?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jgoose71 0]

kallend

*********
I'd be fine with some raises in taxes.... Provided it was not just going to be pissed away like it currently is. We pretty much HAVE to raise taxes to get out of the mess we are in. But raising taxes before we get ahead of spending stupidly will just mean we continue losing money.

What you want is a guarantee of sorts that the added revenue won't be used to fund pet projects of legislators. I think a considerable percentage of people (of those paying these taxes in the first place) would agree to pay more, but for their sense that Congress will always spend every dollar plus another dime or two.

Kind of... What I really want is the Federal Govt to be limited to the powers that the Constitution granted it. I want reckless spending cut and ridiculous programs dropped.

Like the F35 program, and the Ford class carriers?

Why? Are you suggesting that the U.S. Military goes back to Horses and Bayonets? How Mitt Romney of you...

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[kallend 1,623]

jgoose71

************
I'd be fine with some raises in taxes.... Provided it was not just going to be pissed away like it currently is. We pretty much HAVE to raise taxes to get out of the mess we are in. But raising taxes before we get ahead of spending stupidly will just mean we continue losing money.

What you want is a guarantee of sorts that the added revenue won't be used to fund pet projects of legislators. I think a considerable percentage of people (of those paying these taxes in the first place) would agree to pay more, but for their sense that Congress will always spend every dollar plus another dime or two.

Kind of... What I really want is the Federal Govt to be limited to the powers that the Constitution granted it. I want reckless spending cut and ridiculous programs dropped.

Like the F35 program, and the Ford class carriers?

Why? Are you suggesting that the U.S. Military goes back to Horses and Bayonets? How Mitt Romney of you...

False dichotomy fallacy.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,400]

> Are you suggesting that the U.S. Military goes back to Horses and Bayonets? How
>Mitt Romney of you...

And here we see why this problem will never, ever get solved.

"I want reckless spending cut and ridiculous programs dropped."
"OK let's cut these two programs."
"What, you want to destroy our military? Hell no! Cut other people's programs, keep my favorites."

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

Agreed, and I would add that that's primarily reducing the power of the executive. That has been where most of the over-reach of authority has taken place (IMO.)

I was thinking more along States rights... For example when Romney wanted to basically make the ACA in MA. I think that was a bad idea, but legal.

I think the US Congress making the ACA nation wide was stepping all over the States rights issue.

Quote

That's happened because people want stuff and they elect representatives that will get it for them. Most of the big programs (social security, medicare) have come in via constitutional means.

Yep. But the EPA for example was more executive fiat (Nixon I think). We have more Czars than Russia it seems now. The ATF and IRS are bloated agencies. The NSA domestic spying programs.

There are plenty of places to cut the fat.... Some military expenditures. Handouts to other Countries. Two wars. Welfare programs that seem to never end.

We all most likely know at least one person who is "Disabled" but has zero impact from them not being able to work.

These are issues.

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

Like the F35 program, and the Ford class carriers?

In addition to Social Security and the soon to be ACA expenses... Sure.

You seem to think I think the military is the right size. Having been in the Military I saw plenty of waste and would have no issue getting rid of that, and other waste.

Now, would you say the same of YOUR favorite programs?

[kallend 1,623]

DaVinci

Quote

Agreed, and I would add that that's primarily reducing the power of the executive. That has been where most of the over-reach of authority has taken place (IMO.)

I was thinking more along States rights... For example when Romney wanted to basically make the ACA in MA. I think that was a bad idea, but legal.

I think the US Congress making the ACA nation wide was stepping all over the States rights issue.

***That's happened because people want stuff and they elect representatives that will get it for them. Most of the big programs (social security, medicare) have come in via constitutional means.

Yep. But the EPA for example was more executive fiat (Nixon I think). We have more Czars than Russia it seems now. The ATF and IRS are bloated agencies. The NSA domestic spying programs.
...



I disagree about the IRS. The tax code is bloated. The IRS is in fact insufficiently staffed to be able to deal with it effectively which is why the estimate is some $300Billion lost to tax cheats.

The tax code needs to be simplified before the IRS is downsized.

And other similar examples are Medicare and Social Security. The regulations are so arcane that almost no-one understands them and cottage industries have grown up to help people navigate the rules. Simplify the rules, then the bureaucracies can be downsized too.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[turtlespeed 212]

kallend

***************
I'd be fine with some raises in taxes.... Provided it was not just going to be pissed away like it currently is. We pretty much HAVE to raise taxes to get out of the mess we are in. But raising taxes before we get ahead of spending stupidly will just mean we continue losing money.

What you want is a guarantee of sorts that the added revenue won't be used to fund pet projects of legislators. I think a considerable percentage of people (of those paying these taxes in the first place) would agree to pay more, but for their sense that Congress will always spend every dollar plus another dime or two.

Kind of... What I really want is the Federal Govt to be limited to the powers that the Constitution granted it. I want reckless spending cut and ridiculous programs dropped.

Like the F35 program, and the Ford class carriers?

Why? Are you suggesting that the U.S. Military goes back to Horses and Bayonets? How Mitt Romney of you...

False dichotomy fallacy.

I think he learned that from you.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,400]

>There are plenty of places to cut the fat.... Some military expenditures. Handouts to
>other Countries. Two wars. Welfare programs that seem to never end.

No, we really don't. We have to cut meat. We have to cut programs that give disabled veterans new legs, and programs that feed people who will otherwise starve, and military programs that will leave us weaker. The idea that there is useless fat to cut is a pleasant one to consider, but we've been doing that for 200 years now, and there's no more fat to cut. You have to cut working programs that do good things for people and the US.

[turtlespeed 212]

billvon

>There are plenty of places to cut the fat.... Some military expenditures. Handouts to
>other Countries. Two wars. Welfare programs that seem to never end.

No, we really don't. We have to cut meat. We have to cut programs that give disabled veterans new legs, and programs that feed people who will otherwise starve, and military programs that will leave us weaker. The idea that there is useless fat to cut is a pleasant one to consider, but we've been doing that for 200 years now, and there's no more fat to cut. You have to cut working programs that do good things for people and the US.

Here is a thought.

Lets cut fraud and unessential paychecks.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[quade 3]

turtlespeed

Lets cut fraud and unessential paychecks.

"Fraud" is objective. Good answer.
"Unessential" is subjective. Horrible answer.

What is "unessential" to me, might be "life critical" to you.

Again, it's a horrible answer.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[turtlespeed 212]

quade

***Lets cut fraud and unessential paychecks.

"Fraud" is objective. Good answer.
"Unessential" is subjective. Horrible answer.

What is "unessential" to me, might be "life critical" to you.

Again, it's a horrible answer.

That depends on what the definition of is, is.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[jgoose71 0]

turtlespeed

******************
I'd be fine with some raises in taxes.... Provided it was not just going to be pissed away like it currently is. We pretty much HAVE to raise taxes to get out of the mess we are in. But raising taxes before we get ahead of spending stupidly will just mean we continue losing money.

What you want is a guarantee of sorts that the added revenue won't be used to fund pet projects of legislators. I think a considerable percentage of people (of those paying these taxes in the first place) would agree to pay more, but for their sense that Congress will always spend every dollar plus another dime or two.

Kind of... What I really want is the Federal Govt to be limited to the powers that the Constitution granted it. I want reckless spending cut and ridiculous programs dropped.

Like the F35 program, and the Ford class carriers?

Why? Are you suggesting that the U.S. Military goes back to Horses and Bayonets? How Mitt Romney of you...

False dichotomy fallacy.

I think he learned that from you.

+1!!!

What? Obama can use that line on Romney and it's OK? But I use it on you and this is the reaction I get?

As the right adopts the tactics of the left, there will be no more adults in the room. But at least as the U.S. comes tumbling down around us, I will know that I got my fair share of zingers in, and that is all that's important...

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything