Pack of motorcyclists chase man in SUV, attack him on upper Manhattan street after fender bender

[turtlespeed 212]

normiss

GM?

Gravity Master

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Gravitymaster 0]

SkyDekker

Quote

Right, better to run down, perhaps, innocent people with your SUV and then race thru the streets at high speeds, running red lights and endangering more innocent people. Good thinking.

And starting a gun fight would somehow not endanger innocent people?

Is your assertion that brandishing a gun would have made the mob of bikers go away and solved the problem?

In your mind, how would the inclusion of a gun in this scenario played out? I have provided what I think the likely outcome would have been. Your turn.

And I have provided what a likely outcome of racing through the streets would be

[SkyDekker 1,150]

We have the outcome of racing through the streets in this case. That is exactly what happened.

You then implied that having a gun would have solved this in a better fashion.

I responded that I doubted that, with an explanation of how I thought that would play out. I have asked you to provide your scenario as to how the gun would have helped out. So, I'll ask again, how would this have played out with a gun in your opinion?

[turtlespeed 212]

SkyDekker

We have the outcome of racing through the streets in this case. That is exactly what happened.

You then implied that having a gun would have solved this in a better fashion.

I responded that I doubted that, with an explanation of how I thought that would play out. I have asked you to provide your scenario as to how the gun would have helped out. So, I'll ask again, how would this have played out with a gun in your opinion?

Wouldn't that somewhat depend on the firearm?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[SkyDekker 1,150]

turtlespeed

***We have the outcome of racing through the streets in this case. That is exactly what happened.

You then implied that having a gun would have solved this in a better fashion.

I responded that I doubted that, with an explanation of how I thought that would play out. I have asked you to provide your scenario as to how the gun would have helped out. So, I'll ask again, how would this have played out with a gun in your opinion?

Wouldn't that somewhat depend on the firearm?

I don't know. You guys are the firearm experts. What firearm would have been best and how would it have played out?

[rushmc 18]

SkyDekker

******We have the outcome of racing through the streets in this case. That is exactly what happened.

You then implied that having a gun would have solved this in a better fashion.

I responded that I doubted that, with an explanation of how I thought that would play out. I have asked you to provide your scenario as to how the gun would have helped out. So, I'll ask again, how would this have played out with a gun in your opinion?

Wouldn't that somewhat depend on the firearm?

I don't know. You guys are the firearm experts. What firearm would have been best and how would it have played out?

Jokin Joe says a shot gun

I dont agree in this case

IF, some ass hat had been breaking out my window, he would have seen my 1911, for a second maybe

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[normiss 635]

A to the mother fucking K home boy.





At the best one could do in this situation...pop one or two that opened the door and tried to drag you out, then hit the gas.


Any reaction with a weapon would have been very wrong in this case.
Keep in mind this was in NYC as well...so you could really get hammered for having much less brandishing or using a weapon.

IMHO anywho.

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

And starting a gun fight would somehow not endanger innocent people?

First above all... We have to recognize that this was NY. So the chances of a law abiding citizen having a gun is next to nothing.

But lets assume it was somewhere else.

First, you are assuming that there would be a gun fight. You have to make several assumptions for that to happen. First you have to assume that the bikers had guns... But if they had guns then why didn't they just shoot the tires out of the SUV? <--- See me making an assumption.

Second, you are assuming that even if they had a weapon - That they would return fire instead of running away. Most situations where a gun is pulled it is not fired because the person looking down the barrel suddenly either gets his way, or decides whatever it was he wanted is not as important.

Quote

Is your assertion that brandishing a gun would have made the mob of bikers go away and solved the problem?

It might have worked exactly that way. We do know that running from them didn't work.

Quote

In your mind, how would the inclusion of a gun in this scenario played out?

That they stopped the SUV like they did before. That the driver called 911 (like he did). Then he would run over the blocking riders (like he did). A chase would have happened and eventually the SUV would have gotten stuck in traffic (I would not have left the highway... my choice). But once the SUV was stuck and the bikers tried to break the glass and extract the driver.... Just showing the gun might have been enough to make the biker less interested in pulling the driver out. He most likely would back away saying he has a gun.

The insertion of a gun into a situation against a crowd has a way of taking the crowd mentality out of the group. They now have to contemplate they they as individuals will get shot.

[SkyDekker 1,150]

Quote

IF, some ass hat had been breaking out my window, he would have seen my 1911, for a second maybe

I get that part. But what happens after that?

Let's assume the guns are legal in NYC. You are sitting boxed in, in traffic, on rims, since the tires have been slashed and shredded from previous driving on them.

You pop the first one or two, there are roughly 30 remaining. You have wife and kid in the car with you.

What happens after you pop the first one or two?

(speeding away would be a great option, but since you came to a stop due to traffic gridlock, it is unlikely to be a viable option)

[rushmc 18]

SkyDekker

Quote

IF, some ass hat had been breaking out my window, he would have seen my 1911, for a second maybe

I get that part. But what happens after that?

Let's assume the guns are legal in NYC. You are sitting boxed in, in traffic, on rims, since the tires have been slashed and shredded from previous driving on them.

You pop the first one or two, there are roughly 30 remaining. You have wife and kid in the car with you.

What happens after you pop the first one or two?

(speeding away would be a great option, but since you came to a stop due to traffic gridlock, it is unlikely to be a viable option)

In your world I would have to sit and die waiting for police

Heck man, in another thread you talk about action (getting a job) here , well, what do YOU think should happen?

As for me, I could get almost half of them
If they took me out at least I was trying

BTW, I am thinking where I live
Not NYC
That place is messed up

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,150]

DaVinci

Quote

And starting a gun fight would somehow not endanger innocent people?

First above all... We have to recognize that this was NY. So the chances of a law abiding citizen having a gun is next to nothing.

But lets assume it was somewhere else.

First, you are assuming that there would be a gun fight. You have to make several assumptions for that to happen. First you have to assume that the bikers had guns... But if they had guns then why didn't they just shoot the tires out of the SUV? <--- See me making an assumption.

Second, you are assuming that even if they had a weapon - That they would return fire instead of running away. Most situations where a gun is pulled it is not fired because the person looking down the barrel suddenly either gets his way, or decides whatever it was he wanted is not as important.

***Is your assertion that brandishing a gun would have made the mob of bikers go away and solved the problem?

It might have worked exactly that way. We do know that running from them didn't work.

Quote

In your mind, how would the inclusion of a gun in this scenario played out?

That they stopped the SUV like they did before. That the driver called 911 (like he did). Then he would run over the blocking riders (like he did). A chase would have happened and eventually the SUV would have gotten stuck in traffic (I would not have left the highway... my choice). But once the SUV was stuck and the bikers tried to break the glass and extract the driver.... Just showing the gun might have been enough to make the biker less interested in pulling the driver out. He most likely would back away saying he has a gun.

The insertion of a gun into a situation against a crowd has a way of taking the crowd mentality out of the group. They now have to contemplate they they as individuals will get shot.

I was working under the assertion of legal guns.

The above would indeed be a more ideal situation, if it would play out that way. However, in a legal gun scenario, the bikers would likely have some legal guns among them as well. Which might result in a quite different outcome. My guess is, it may just get uglier, with an increased risk for wife and kid.

[turtlespeed 212]

SkyDekker

***

Quote

And starting a gun fight would somehow not endanger innocent people?

First above all... We have to recognize that this was NY. So the chances of a law abiding citizen having a gun is next to nothing.

But lets assume it was somewhere else.

First, you are assuming that there would be a gun fight. You have to make several assumptions for that to happen. First you have to assume that the bikers had guns... But if they had guns then why didn't they just shoot the tires out of the SUV? <--- See me making an assumption.

Second, you are assuming that even if they had a weapon - That they would return fire instead of running away. Most situations where a gun is pulled it is not fired because the person looking down the barrel suddenly either gets his way, or decides whatever it was he wanted is not as important.

***Is your assertion that brandishing a gun would have made the mob of bikers go away and solved the problem?

It might have worked exactly that way. We do know that running from them didn't work.

Quote

In your mind, how would the inclusion of a gun in this scenario played out?

That they stopped the SUV like they did before. That the driver called 911 (like he did). Then he would run over the blocking riders (like he did). A chase would have happened and eventually the SUV would have gotten stuck in traffic (I would not have left the highway... my choice). But once the SUV was stuck and the bikers tried to break the glass and extract the driver.... Just showing the gun might have been enough to make the biker less interested in pulling the driver out. He most likely would back away saying he has a gun.

The insertion of a gun into a situation against a crowd has a way of taking the crowd mentality out of the group. They now have to contemplate they they as individuals will get shot.

I was working under the assertion of legal guns.

The above would indeed be a more ideal situation, if it would play out that way. However, in a legal gun scenario, the bikers would likely have some legal guns among them as well. Which might result in a quite different outcome. My guess is, it may just get uglier, with an increased risk for wife and kid.

The answer is very simple.
Just don't be a wealthy minority. If you are, DO NOT buy a Range Rover. But, even if you do THAT, do NOT allow your wife and kids to get in the car. If you can't avoid all of the aforementioned, do not get on the highway.

Hell. If we just ban Minorities and this wouldn't have happened.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rushmc 18]

Quote

The above would indeed be a more ideal situation, if it would play out that way. However, in a legal gun scenario, the bikers would likely have some legal guns among them as well. Which might result in a quite different outcome. My guess is, it may just get uglier, with an increased risk for wife and kid.

This is absolutely your decision to make
I only ask that I can make my own decision
We are all playing arm chair quarterback here in any event
But, in one of the arcticles during a police interview, they (the police) stated that identifying the bikers will be very hard because many of the license plates were stolen and on the wrong bikes

Still think they would have legal guns?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

However, in a legal gun scenario, the bikers would likely have some legal guns among them as well.

You are still making two large assumptions:
1. That these people would be armed.
2. That they would be willing to kill or die to beat a guy up.

Fact is that most people step down when faced with superior force. Most people do not want to get shot. In fact military studies have shown that most soldiers do not shoot to kill till they feel personally threatened.

Quote

My guess is, it may just get uglier, with an increased risk for wife and kid.

How could it of gotten uglier? They beat the guy to a pulp and the only thing stopping them from beating and raping the woman and killing the kid was either a lack of time or their "goodwill".

If it was lack of time, most people when they see a gun duck or run. So you would have just added time to your side. If it was "goodwill" that prevented the killing of the wife or child.... That is a pretty damn scary bet to take: "They will only kill me, they are good people and will leave my wife and child alone".

I'd bet that crowd of 30 would look like an old keystone cops movie with all of the bikers scrambling for cover and trying to escape if the guy shot the first person to try and drag him out of the SUV.

[ryoder 1,406]

DaVinci

You are still making two large assumptions:
1. That these people would be armed.

I didn't see the thugs adhering to any other laws, so why would they not be illegally carrying?
I'd bet money there were a *lot* of guns in that mob, but they had no need to pull them,
since they outnumbered the sane people.
This incident is an argument for the need for high-capacity magazines for self-defense use.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Bignugget 0]

turtlespeed

******If you were in this situation, with your wife and child in the SUV, would you have wished you had a gun?

No....I would have just ran you over.

Little hostile, considering GM wasn't there. The NYC bikers were.

How far did you have to go to hunt him down and run him over?

I see your point, in that situation I would probably run out of gas before I found him.

That being said, thank GOD none of his gun loving friends pulled a gun and shot the poor family to death in "self-defense" After all he did hit one of them with his car, attempting to murder that poor innocent soul.

Though it would sure have made for some entertaining SC threads.

[SkyDekker 1,150]

rushmc

Quote

The above would indeed be a more ideal situation, if it would play out that way. However, in a legal gun scenario, the bikers would likely have some legal guns among them as well. Which might result in a quite different outcome. My guess is, it may just get uglier, with an increased risk for wife and kid.

This is absolutely your decision to make
I only ask that I can make my own decision
We are all playing arm chair quarterback here in any event
But, in one of the arcticles during a police interview, they (the police) stated that identifying the bikers will be very hard because many of the license plates were stolen and on the wrong bikes

Still think they would have legal guns?

Sigh.....

This wasn't a debate on my end on legal or illegal guns, or wether they should be allowed.

There was an insinuation that a gun would have improved the situation. I am trying to figure out how that would have been. DaVinci laid out a possibility how it could have been....Personally I think it likely would have played out differently.

No that doesn't mean I think all Americans have to hand in their firearms. I just don't happen to think a gun is always the right answer. Sorry.

[rushmc 18]

SkyDekker

.

I just don't happen to think a gun is always the right answer. Sorry.

I know what you meant
And you are right, it is not always the right answer
But who decides?
You are saying you think it may have made the situation in this threads example, worse. Some think it may have helped and ended the situation better or quicker
Who is to say?

Even if two different people experienced the exact same situation that answer could be very different for them.

So this being where we are at, what point are you trying to make?
either of you could be correct

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rickjump1 0]

Bignugget

***If you were in this situation, with your wife and child in the SUV, would you have wished you had a gun?

No....I would have just ran you over. Good answer, and, "honey, open your door and keep it open with your foot, but don't lock your knee. Nobody stops a Range Rover.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[SkyDekker 1,150]

rushmc

***.

I just don't happen to think a gun is always the right answer. Sorry.

I know what you meant
And you are right, it is not always the right answer
But who decides?
You are saying you think it may have made the situation in this threads example, worse. Some think it may have helped and ended the situation better or quicker
Who is to say?

Even if two different people experienced the exact same situation that answer could be very different for them.

So this being where we are at, what point are you trying to make?
either of you could be correct

The only point is the conversation and seeing things from multiple angles. Sometimes one might even think...gee, hadn't thought of that.

[winsor 187]

SkyDekker

We have the outcome of racing through the streets in this case. That is exactly what happened.

You then implied that having a gun would have solved this in a better fashion.

I responded that I doubted that, with an explanation of how I thought that would play out. I have asked you to provide your scenario as to how the gun would have helped out. So, I'll ask again, how would this have played out with a gun in your opinion?

Like this?

Okay, what I taught in my classes for years is that the best form of self-defense is real estate. Put as much of it as you can between you and trouble.

If someone wants to call you a coward, make them dial a '1' first so that it's long-distance.

The likelihood that a firearm might have helped the guy in New York is small.

If, however, he was on his way home to clean his oven and happened to have a big can of Easy Off with him, the outcome might have been different. He would not have needed earplugs, either.


BSBD,

Winsor

[wmw999 2,166]

Quote

Okay, what I taught in my classes for years is that the best form of self-defense is real estate. Put as much of it as you can between you and trouble.

If someone wants to call you a coward, make them dial a '1' first so that it's long-distance.

I am so going to quote that

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[regulator 0]

Roof mounted .50 cal would have made all of this go away.

[ryoder 1,406]

regulator

Roof mounted .50 cal would have made all of this go away.

Like this?

https://www.facebook.com/Dragonmans

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[nigel99 151]

Superior force?

Man with gun, woman and kid > group of thugs with guns?

I think you're being idealistic in the outcome. I also think in a hyped situation people in a crowd think 'it won't be me' so they are braver, behave worse.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.