Self Defense: Right or Privilege?

[DanG 1]

In SkyDekkers defense, it's disingenuous to claim that only one person per year is accidentally shot. For your math to make sense, that would have to be the case. It's certainly not.

Necessary gun thread disclaimer: I agree with your position, but disagree with your math.

- Dan G

[SkyDekker 1,123]

DanG

In SkyDekkers defense, it's disingenuous to claim that only one person per year is accidentally shot. For your math to make sense, that would have to be the case. It's certainly not.

Necessary gun thread disclaimer: I agree with your position, but disagree with your math.

Stop taking the fun out of this, they kept making my point for me.

[kelpdiver 2]

DanG

In SkyDekkers defense, it's disingenuous to claim that only one person per year is accidentally shot. For your math to make sense, that would have to be the case. It's certainly not.

He spoke of the danger of one of my (hypothetical) childen killing another, because every year or two we see that happen, nearly always in a terribly neglectful household. Therefore, the risk of this happening to me is on par with the chances I'll actually use my gun to protect the household.

But sure, lets count every single accidental shooting in the home (excluding hunting accidents, for example). So now we're up to a few hundred per year, nearly always committed by people ignoring basic safety protocols (and probably drinking). It's still vastly outnumbered by the hundreds of millions of guns in the home, and by the hundreds of thousands of DGUs annually. 1000:1 or even 500:1 is still not equivalent risk. Particularly when securing the weapons in a home with children, or teaching them basic knowledge is so easy to achieve.

[rehmwa 2]

turtlespeed

I think a more appropriate one is having an income of 1 dollar per year is similar to having an income of 250000 per year. They are similar only in that they are incomes.

be patient, the Dems are still in control - soon, either income should result in the same lifestyle

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[turtlespeed 212]

rehmwa

***I think a more appropriate one is having an income of 1 dollar per year is similar to having an income of 250000 per year. They are similar only in that they are incomes.

be patient, the Dems are still in control - soon, either income should result in the same lifestyle

Since this is partially a gun thread - perhaps we should ban incomes . . . it doesn't matter if they are only a dollar or 250000 dollars, ban them all!

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[normiss 622]

Interesting.

You have no clue what reality is and you clearly do not understand words.
Much less laws.

and fuck me for being stoopid enough to continue to play this fucked up game.

[Bignugget 0]

linebckr83

***
Normiss pulled a gun on some poor kids walking to the gas station to get some food.

I would turn and run as well if i was walking to get some food and some crazy person pulls a gun out and screams at me.

You must live an extremely sheltered life. I urge you to go to the shitty part of whatever city you live in and hang out for a bit. Considering you have some outrageous belief that any "young" person is an absolute angel and thugs and gang bangers don't exist, it might be an eye opening experience. When they approach you, I wouldn't suggest giving hugs and offering candy.


Umm, every kid walking down the street isn't a gangbanger.

I live on the corner of Ferguson, Berkeley, and Kinloch in North County Saint Louis. Plenty of violent crime around me. They found a murdered decomposing body in an explorer parked in the church parking lot behind my house last month.

Saint Louis in general is one of the most violent cities in the nation.

Just because I see a group of people walking towards me while I am at the gas station doesn't mean I am about to be raped and pillaged and need to PULL A GUN OUT.

Lol.

Those were likely some peaceful dudes hanging out in the same place they hang out every day of their life.

Normiss came into their neighborhood and pulled a gun on them. Hes the thug.

Thankfully they weren't crazy gun lovers as well who felt justified in pulling their guns and shooting Normiss since he had pulled his first threateningly.

[turtlespeed 212]

Bignugget

******
Normiss pulled a gun on some poor kids walking to the gas station to get some food.

I would turn and run as well if i was walking to get some food and some crazy person pulls a gun out and screams at me.

You must live an extremely sheltered life. I urge you to go to the shitty part of whatever city you live in and hang out for a bit. Considering you have some outrageous belief that any "young" person is an absolute angel and thugs and gang bangers don't exist, it might be an eye opening experience. When they approach you, I wouldn't suggest giving hugs and offering candy.


Umm, every kid walking down the street isn't a gangbanger.

I live on the corner of Ferguson, Berkeley, and Kinloch in North County Saint Louis. Plenty of violent crime around me. They found a murdered decomposing body in an explorer parked in the church behind my houses parking lot last month.

Saint Louis in general is one of the most violent cities in the nation.

Just because I see a group of people walking towards me while I am at the gas station doesn't mean I am about to be raped and pillaged and need to PULL A GUN OUT.

Lol.


LOL -

Try going to that part of town and asking them to turn over their weapons, make sure you tell them how anti-gun you are.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Bignugget 0]

I live here, no need to go anywhere. My neighbors know how I feel about guns.

What would my stance on guns have to do with someones reaction to me asking them for their gun?

Are you more likely to turn your gun over to someone who is pro-gun?

[linebckr83 3]

Did I say every kid is a gangster? No, I said they exist. And apparently you are aware of that. You know there are murdering fuckers running around your neck of the town right? So what if you are approached by several of them at once? What's your plan? P.S., there's no backdoor to run to, and crying does no good.

I wish you luck, but judging by your lack of common sense I doubt you'll always avoid trouble like you apparently have so far. Hopefully you aren't the next person found in an explorer.

Normiss, I'm willing to bet you dodged a pretty scary situation there by being prepared. Kudos.

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[wmw999 2,122]

This is not to say that Normiss was wrong in his situation assessment -- I wasn't there.

Sometimes I wonder if a carry permit is kind of like a hammer.

When you have a new hammer, they say that every problem starts to look like a nail. Maybe, just maybe, when you have a carry permit, situations that you get into look like they might benefit from guns, when other options might also have resolved them. No, you can't know in retrospect, but there seem to be a much larger percentage of carry-permit holders who have needed their guns, than non-carry-permit holders who have regretted not having one (personal perception, based on nothing more than what I've heard).

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[normiss 622]

In the case I mentioned at that gas station, they were clearly coming to me/after me, from multiple angles.
If I hadn't only just started fueling, I would have had time to simply get in my truck and leave.
FYI - I no longer carry on a regular basis - it's a weight on your conscience to be honest. I also realized there's no need to always carry - at least on your person. Works well in the glove box though. ;-)

This is not a safe world at times.
Prepare accordingly.

[SkyDekker 1,123]

Quote

This is not a safe world at times.
Prepare accordingly.

Like don't run out of gas in the worst part of town?

In Canada we learn that lesson a different way: don't run out of gas when stuck in a snow storm.

[linebckr83 3]

SkyDekker

Quote

This is not a safe world at times.
Prepare accordingly.

Like don't run out of gas in the worst part of town?

In Canada we learn that lesson a different way: don't run out of gas when stuck in a snow storm.

Have you ever left your home town? Say, maybe to travel? How the fuck do you know what "the worst part of town" is when you've never been there. Stay home on your couch, it's safe there.

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[SkyDekker 1,123]

linebckr83

***

Quote

This is not a safe world at times.
Prepare accordingly.

Like don't run out of gas in the worst part of town?

In Canada we learn that lesson a different way: don't run out of gas when stuck in a snow storm.

Have you ever left your home town? Say, maybe to travel? How the fuck do you know what "the worst part of town" is when you've never been there. Stay home on your couch, it's safe there.

Well, if you leave your couch and travel, you would know that you can generally get a pretty decent sense of what part of town you are in just by observation.

Even when travelling through Nicaragua, which I visited this past winter, you can use some of these observational skills to try and help those determinations.

[linebckr83 3]

I must not be observant enough.

I'm from Kansas where everything is easy to see. Flew to Orlando last year and drove to Tampa. Got lost a few times sight seeing, then onto the interstate. I'm not used to 6-8 lane interstates so it was a lot to pay attention to. Before I knew it, the fuel light comes on and I have no idea where I am or what part of Orlando is bad. I had to get off and get gas and boy was it a GHETTO part of town. Not a comfortable situation. Unfortunately I had no other alternative as I didn't know how much farther I could go and did not want to end up stopped on that interstate.

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[wmw999 2,122]

I'm a woman, making me supposedly even more vulnerable. I've been driving for over 40 years, including plenty of cross-country driving as well as inner-city (though that mostly in the past -- I live in a suburg now). I regularly go until the fuel light goes on.

I've never felt a problem in any gasoline station in my life. Maybe my standards are different, but who's to say whose standards are "right" or "wrong."

It does seem that mine make me less scared.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[SkyDekker 1,123]

linebckr83

I must not be observant enough.

I'm from Kansas where everything is easy to see. Flew to Orlando last year and drove to Tampa. Got lost a few times sight seeing, then onto the interstate. I'm not used to 6-8 lane interstates so it was a lot to pay attention to. Before I knew it, the fuel light comes on and I have no idea where I am or what part of Orlando is bad. I had to get off and get gas and boy was it a GHETTO part of town. Not a comfortable situation. Unfortunately I had no other alternative as I didn't know how much farther I could go and did not want to end up stopped on that interstate.

Like normis said:

Quote

This is not a safe world at times.
Prepare accordingly.

In his case that appears to mean bring a gun. In my case it means not putting yourself in a situation where you have to get out of your car in an area that makes you uncomfortable.

(I do like the irony of your post after telling me I must not travel a lot)

[rehmwa 2]

SkyDekker

In his case that appears to mean bring a gun. In my case it means not putting yourself in a situation where you have to get out of your car in an area that makes you uncomfortable.

I like being legally allowed the option to either. It would silly to pass a law that requires you to get out of your car. Just as silly to pass laws that would disarm you. Especially when you've done nothing to deserve either positions forced on you.

My personal choice would be to do both if I have both options - most gun owners would agree despite the stereotypes that so many anti-gun people love to wallow in.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[linebckr83 3]

SkyDekker

(I do like the irony of your post after telling me I must not travel a lot)

When did I say you dont travel? I asked, I didn't say you do not travel. That's not irony.

What would you do then, in an unfamiliar very large city, running on low fuel and an extremely busy interstate? Yea yea I get it, you wouldn't get low on fuel in an unknown city, etc etc. Typical skydiver mentality, it'll never happen to me because I wouldn't be there in the first place. Shit does happen sometimes. No one can be 100% prepared all the time, including you.

Wendy I'm glad you've never been somewhere that makes you uncomfortable. I can't say the same, and having a gun pulled on you while you hand over your wallet is a pretty uncomfortable position.

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[rushmc 18]

SkyDekker

Quote

This is not a safe world at times.
Prepare accordingly.

Like don't run out of gas in the worst part of town?

In Canada we learn that lesson a different way: don't run out of gas when stuck in a snow storm.

I did
And I did not know I was in a bad part of town
I was filling (I am thankful it was a pay at the pump) in Des Moines
First mistake
I didnt know this was a bad part of town

I noticed after a bit that there were many people standing around and were working toward me
Second mistake
Situational awareness

I did not have my weapon with me (the ONLY time I wish I had it)
Third mistake
Unprepared

Fortunatley, I noticed the movement early enough to pull the nozzel and leave
but they were running after me
One even jumped in front of my truck
Fortunately he decided early enough that I was not going to stop at that point

Oh
And I always have a full tank of gas when a storm is coming
This was summer time

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,123]

rehmwa

***In his case that appears to mean bring a gun. In my case it means not putting yourself in a situation where you have to get out of your car in an area that makes you uncomfortable.

I like being legally allowed the option to either. It would silly to pass a law that requires you to get out of your car. Just as silly to pass laws that would disarm you. Especially when you've done nothing to deserve either positions forced on you.

My personal choice would be to do both if I have both options - most gun owners would agree despite the stereotypes that so many anti-gun people love to wallow in.

I don't disagree for the US.

On a grander scale, it would appear that the easy access to firearms has some significant negative effects. Now, I don't think that banning guns in the US is going to accomplish anything positive. I just don't think you guys have created the ideal situation for yourself, not by a long shot.

I do believe, and I know I will be derided for this, that the easy acces to guns plays a role in the frequency of violence, and maybe more even the severity of the violence that is happening in the US.

I am happy that the country I live in went a different route a long time ago, at least on this issue.

Personally, I don't think there is a "solution". This is just the society the US has created for itself. You have to take the bad with the good. Yes you have the freedom to walk around with guns. Yes, I believe that comes with the a price.

[rushmc 18]

SkyDekker

******In his case that appears to mean bring a gun. In my case it means not putting yourself in a situation where you have to get out of your car in an area that makes you uncomfortable.

I like being legally allowed the option to either. It would silly to pass a law that requires you to get out of your car. Just as silly to pass laws that would disarm you. Especially when you've done nothing to deserve either positions forced on you.

My personal choice would be to do both if I have both options - most gun owners would agree despite the stereotypes that so many anti-gun people love to wallow in.

I don't disagree for the US.

On a grander scale, it would appear that the easy access to firearms has some significant negative effects. Now, I don't think that banning guns in the US is going to accomplish anything positive. I just don't think you guys have created the ideal situation for yourself, not by a long shot.

I do believe, and I know I will be derided for this, that the easy acces to guns plays a role in the frequency of violence, and maybe more even the severity of the violence that is happening in the US.

I am happy that the country I live in went a different route a long time ago, at least on this issue.

Personally, I don't think there is a "solution". This is just the society the US has created for itself. You have to take the bad with the good. Yes you have the freedom to walk around with guns. Yes, I believe that comes with the a price.

Good post
Most of it I can agree with or generally acept
but know this
This right was put into our Constitution not to protect us from each other, but to protect us from and out of control government

Culture is a big part of the problem
And since we keep getting push in a direction that gives more power to government and reduces the consequences of ones own actions, it may get worse

But also know this
If you remove states like CA and DC from the stats, the US is nearly in line with the rest of the countries the anti gunners would compare us to
And those states have the toughest gun control laws with most liberal state laws
Something to consider

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Bignugget 0]

linebckr83

***(I do like the irony of your post after telling me I must not travel a lot)

When did I say you dont travel? I asked, I didn't say you do not travel. That's not irony.

What would you do then, in an unfamiliar very large city, running on low fuel and an extremely busy interstate? Yea yea I get it, you wouldn't get low on fuel in an unknown city, etc etc. Typical skydiver mentality, it'll never happen to me because I wouldn't be there in the first place. Shit does happen sometimes. No one can be 100% prepared all the time, including you.

Wendy I'm glad you've never been somewhere that makes you uncomfortable. I can't say the same, and having a gun pulled on you while you hand over your wallet is a pretty uncomfortable position.


And a better solution to that is a gun battle?

Instead of just handing over the wallet?


Now of course my solution is remove all the guns so the robber has a less likely chance of having one....

Yours is to gun battle it out with the robber in close quarters?

[skypuppy 1]

SkyDekker

***I wonder how many 'anti-gun', 'anti-defend yourself effectively' posters on here would change their mind if they were to be attacked and had fear for their or their loved ones' lives?

eta: It's all fun and games hypotheticals until it happens to YOU!

I wonder how many "pro-gun" posters would still own guns after their 10 year old shoots their 8 year old by accident.

It's all fun and games hypotheticals until it happens to YOU!

that's a ridiculous comparison. There are far more defensive gun uses then accidental gun deaths in the us. Some estimate well over a million defensive gun uses/year.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone