PD Forcing Residents From Home During Boston Manhunt

[mistercwood 287]

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But, seriously, how else do you do it?

Firebomb the place and hope you get rid of him?

Or, perhaps, if you have a reasonable suspicion that the guy is there get some warrants. Or consent. Yes, the 4th Amendment makes the job of law enforcement a lot harder - as it was supposed to do.

I'm torn on this one, under the circumstances. The video linked is pretty insane, but hey, at least they didn't just shoot the place up like when Dorner was at large, right? Last I saw the ACLU were ok with the use of the whole extenuating circumstance thing, but were keen to hear from anyone who felt their rights were violated... Maybe someone can correct me if needs be, but I've always used them as something of a weathervane from my somewhat distant perspective.

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Not one incident, but as your fellow countrymen found out nearly 250 years ago, there is a tipping point.

Edited to add: I don't mean tipping like you do in a bar. Didn't want you to get confused.

[jcd11235 0]

Will the courts view the searches as unreasonable, assuming there was no evidence collected of any crimes residents may have been committing behind closed doors?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[mistercwood 287]

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Not one incident, but as your fellow countrymen found out nearly 250 years ago, there is a tipping point.

Edited to add: I don't mean tipping like you do in a bar. Didn't want you to get confused.

Most other western countries pay their "service" staff a decent wage, tipping as standard as opposed to reward is kinda unique to the states... Just fyi...

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[SkyDekker 1,130]

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This is why the founding fathers wrote the 2nd Amendment.

Then it doesn't work, cause it still happened.

I further highly doubt that using a firearm would have worked in the favour of the home owner.

So, if this is why the founding father's wrote the 2nd Amendment, they failed.

[regulator 0]

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Not one incident, but as your fellow countrymen found out nearly 250 years ago, there is a tipping point.

Edited to add: I don't mean tipping like you do in a bar. Didn't want you to get confused.

Did you mean cow tipping?

[DanG 1]

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You keep shaking your fist if you think that's going to make a difference. See how effective that has been.

What does that even mean?

- Dan G

[DougH 270]

I actually brought this up on facebook, and I had a few friends who are in the Boston area tell me that they would be glad if the police illegally wrenched them from their homes to conduct a forced search.

The argument was that the bomber could be inside keeping them hostage.

I was also labeled a nutter, and told to be more supportive of the police!

Personally I think people have trained themselves to roll over. The mindset is that you have to give in to everything to support the cause!

I think it is unacceptable. Having the suspicion of a terrorist in the AREA, should not justify searching every residence, especially without giving residents the option to say yes or no.

That is a huge difference from receiving a tip that the suspect is in a specific house, or a neighbor calling in concern that the residents in another house was in danger.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[DanG 1]

I completely agree with you. I just don't for one minute think that the 2nd Amendment is the only thing keeping this country together. I can't stand the faux-intellectual one liners people use in the place of rational arguments like yours.

- Dan G

[ianmdrennan 2]

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You keep shaking your fist if you think that's going to make a difference. See how effective that has been.

Go ahead and point a firearm at the PD (in the middle of a man hunt no less) and tell me how effective that is in comparison to shaking your fist

Performance Designs Factory Team

[regulator 0]

The only way one would be able to effectively resist against a situation like this would to be in a rural environment and to already be set up and in place before they arrived. Seeing as this is a suburban environment with heli's flying overhead there is little place to take cover. But then the bostonites already gave up many of their civil rights already. So what they did is what they should have done...just let them in cause there isnt shit else they could do effectively.

[ManagingPrime 0]

Something reasonable would be setting up a zone. Asking permission to enter homes and getting warrants for homes where there was no answer or a refusal to enter if there was reasonable suspicion to believe that the homeowners were being held against their will.

In any place they enter without consent the homeowners have complete immunity. The homeowner could have a pile of dead hookers in their basement and they can't be charged.

[SkyDekker 1,130]

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Something reasonable would be setting up a zone. Asking permission to enter homes and getting warrants for homes where there was no answer or a refusal to enter if there was reasonable suspicion to believe that the homeowners were being held against their will.

This +1

[DanG 1]

Or you could refuse entry, and sue the shit out of them if they came in anyway. If you had money instead of guns, you could take it all the way to the Supremes if you wanted (or lower courts didn't provide relief) and could end up alive and rich instead of dead and dead.

We are still a nation of laws, despite what talk radio hosts and the NRA would have you believe.

- Dan G

[aphid 0]

Waiting for somebody to weigh-in with:

"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear", or my personal favourite, "As long as they keep us safe".

[regulator 0]

I saw the video. I'm pretty sure those large men with the mentality capturing someone that spilt blood on their turf wouldnt take no for an answer.

And a lawsuit? Against a goverment agency? Yeah its possible to win...in 60 years. I'm just glad that no more incidents popped up that forced the pres to enact marshall law. That wouldnt have ended well...for anyone.

[DougH 270]

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In any place they enter without consent the homeowners have complete immunity. The homeowner could have a pile of dead hookers in their basement and they can't be charged.

They shouldn't be charged, but they would, and the citizen would bear the burden of paying for legal defense to get it thrown out.

Same thing if the citizen has "illegal" items in the house. Arrested, confiscated, and items destroyed. Call the lawyer, post bail.

The system is stacked against the accused. The state is already paying their prosecutors and DAs. They incur no extra cost or interruption to their lives!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[billvon 2,406]

>There are other parts to the Constitution than the one sentance about guns, you know.

Not to a lot of people here.

[DanG 1]

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I'm pretty sure those large men with the mentality capturing someone that spilt blood on their turf wouldnt take no for an answer.

I'm pretty sure the large men with guns would react even worse if you started shooting at them.

- Dan G

[lawrocket 3]

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I don't think, however, that people are training themselves to roll over. Rather, I think that people are training themselves to just let someone else take care of it. We see it everywhere now.

Of course, now we see a couple of things going on. The governments are finding additional exigencies. Or, the exigency is expanded to cover a wider area.

On the heels of this stuff, note that the GOP controlled House just passed the Cyber Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act. It's just another bill that the governnment assures us won't violate the Fourth Amendment. Yep.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[diablopilot 2]

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Screw that. My comment about the cops doing an excellent job was wrong.

I think some did, and dome did not. Hold those who did not accountable, and praise those that did.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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But, seriously, how else do you do it?

How do you do a sweep of a neighborhood looking for a terrorist?

I'm not excusing it, I'm asking a practical question. How do you sweep a neighborhood looking for a terrorist who is assumed to have bombs and has demonstrated he's willing to blow shit up? You can't just tap nicely on the door and assume if somebody inside says, "nothing to see here. Move along." That there isn't, in fact, something going on inside the house.

Ask any operator who ever swept a neighborhood in the Middle East how they went about it. What will they say?

Again, I'm NOT excusing it, but how the hell else do you do it?

When the resident declines a search you either present probable cause, or you set up surveillance until you have probable cause. Simple.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[jakee 1,257]

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Not one incident, but as your fellow countrymen found out nearly 250 years ago, there is a tipping point.

Are you talking about what happened when the second amendment didn't exist?

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Edited to add: I don't mean tipping like you do in a bar. Didn't want you to get confused.

You must be thinking of something else. We don't tip. Except for cows - Regulator's right about that.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[lurch 0]

THAT does it.

If this happened in my area, I'd have been dead. Shot for resisting.
Or, my animal side would have snapped and I'd have made an ill-advised break for the jeep and tried to flee... and the outcome of THAT would be equally a foregone conclusion. But one way or another it wouldn't have ended well for me because "submit with my hands behind my head" is NOT in my wiring. I run or I fight. Either would have got me killed. What a stupid way to die.

My question for anyone in this thread who knows: Lawyers, cops, (current and former) legal people... who do I have to talk to, to try to make sure they never, ever try to bring this shit to my area? Senator? Congresscritter? DHS android? Who?
I have no desire to be mistakenly gunned down by a SWAT team. And if they ever tried that shit in my neighborhood, that is what would happen. I'm pretty sure I'd have died defending my doorway or been shot in the back, fleeing.

There HAS to be some process for preemptively fighting back BEFORE the SWAT team storms your house. Preventing it. Or at least trying to. What is that process? Further: anybody who actually knows how the system works: Do I have a prayer of actually making the authorities agree to never do this shit again or am I just shouting down a well here no matter how much activism I get involved with?
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[quade 3]

Well, for starters, you can come to grips with the fact that every interaction with the police doesn't have to be a confrontation.

The anti-authority attitude runs strong in skydivers and gun owners and I actually have no issue with that. However, there are times when it might not be such a bad idea to put it on the back burner and just not be an asshole.

I think a massive manhunt for a known terrorist and cop killer just might be one of those times.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver