Re: [Tonto] Fatality x 6 - Plane Crash - MO - 29 July 2006

[Mike111 0]

Very sorry to hear of the loss... but was wondering what the miniumum exit altitude is in the USA in the case of an emergency - is it below 1000ft then one rides the aircraft down and hopes for the best>?

Thanks for the info.

[jtval 0]

yes. that is correct.

anything below 1000 is not an exitable a/c.

if the pilot feels he can hold it at 1000ft an have the jumpers exit it is the P.I.C's decision.


Generally, if there is an emergency at a low alt. everyone should sit still and wait for the pilots command.


on a side note:
Mr. Cook actions should be commended. I believe any instructor would have done that in his situation but, in doing so, he probably saved his students life.

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[Mike111 0]

Thanks for the info. I think it is the same in the UK aswell.

But I would have to check.

Let us hope our aircraft can fare a little better for the rest of the year.

[billvon 2,466]

>but was wondering what the miniumum exit altitude is in the USA in the case of an emergency . . .

Most people use 1000-1500 feet as minimum exit altitude, and most DZ's have a policy. But in the end it's up to the pilot and the jumpers. If there's an engine-out at 4000 feet and the pilot says "we're still going to altitude" - that's what you do. If I was in a plane that lost pitch control and I couldn't communicate with the pilot, I'd try to get out.

[Mike111 0]

I know this is a slight diversion of topic... bt in an ermgency bailout when everyone might have to get out fast... is there an exit separation becuase say 22 people all opening their resrvees at 1000ft quickly might lead to some entanglement or collision if eveyrone exited too soon and were forced, due to altitude to open quickly?

Thanks bill,

Mike

[jtval 0]

Bill,
I just wanted to clarify your last sentence.
Did you mean you would try to get out at 1000ft? (I.E. Mike111's question?) or did you mean at 4000ft

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If there's an engine-out at 4000 feet and the pilot says "we're still going to altitude" - that's what you do. If I was in a plane that lost pitch control and I couldn't communicate with the pilot, I'd try to get out.

The reason I ask:
I believe you meant 4000ft but there are some newer folks reading this thread.
If you tried to get out at 1000ft and succeeded, you may find yourself at only a few hundred ft AGL when you actually got out. It all depends on the severity of the emergency, but I was hoping you could clarify that for me.

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[jtval 0]

if I weresituation I would get out ASAP and go immediately to reserve and hope everyone can fly toa safe distance without turning 180 into me

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[Mike111 0]

Fair play... + i guess in that situation, although risky of collisions etc... it would probably the only option if the plane was uncontrollable where you would have to hope for the best.

[winsor 189]

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Very sorry to hear of the loss... but was wondering what the miniumum exit altitude is in the USA in the case of an emergency - is it below 1000 ft then one rides the aircraft down and hopes for the best?reply]

There is no minimum exit altitude in the US of A. There are rather a few setups that are good for zero/zero (zero altitude/zero airspeed) activation.

From an aircraft flying horizontally, there are pilot's emergency rigs that are capable of routinely bringing you down without dying from 200 feet or less.

There have been instances where an aircraft, having lost an engine, could not climb from 200 some-odd feet. If a crash is inevitable - AND THE PILOT SAYS TO BAIL OUT - it may well be the best course of action to do so.

In general, staying with the plane below 1000 feet is the best policy, but it is neither absolute nor mandated.


Blue skies,

Winsor

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[billvon 2,466]

>bt in an ermgency bailout when everyone might have to get out
> fast... is there an exit separation becuase say 22 people all opening
> their resrvees at 1000ft quickly might lead to some entanglement or
> collision if eveyrone exited too soon and were forced, due to altitude
> to open quickly?

Yes. You may be more likely to survive a collision after opening than a plane crash though. It's also a relatively small risk - it is hard to get people out of a plane fast enough to pose a significant collision risk.

(JTval said)

>Did you mean you would try to get out at 1000ft? (I.E. Mike111's
>question?) or did you mean at 4000ft

If the plane was uncontrollable? Heck, I'd try to get out at 400 feet.

Edited to add - keep in mind that "uncontrollable" means the pilot can no longer control the aircraft. It might mean that there's been a midair collision and he's lost part of the wing, or a premature deployment means he's now towing a reserve, or a fire has damaged control cables. 99% of in-flight emergencies are _not_ like this, and in cases like that it's generally better to stay put and await instructions. (And at 400 feet, those instructions are almost sure to be "make sure your seatbelt/helmet is on and prepare to land.")

[nicknitro71 0]

I'd personally get out as low as 500'.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[catfishhunter 1]

I'm with you on this one Bill. Would rather go out on a wing and a prayer then ride a tin can into the dirt..

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[faulknerwn 37]

I once exited an Otter at 1200 feet because of an engine problem. The pilot could maintain altitude but didn't want to land with a full load. He turned the green light on early on the downwind jump run because he thought people would be low to exit. We all landed off :-)

What scared me though is how few of the people - many with hundreds of jumps - knew how to do a head-high stable h&p. As a CRWdog I didn't blink, but I saw some interesting unstable deployments.

As far as me - a freefall rig is different - but I wouldn't even blink an eye at dumping my CRW main at 500 feet...

[mjosparky 3]

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I'd personally get out as low as 500'.

Getting out a 500 feet at 90 Kt. is about the same as being in freefall at about 1100 to 1200 feet. You have about 6 seconds + - before impact.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[jtval 0]

Cool thanks

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[pincheck 0]

Mike i would suggest you speak to either the CCi or an instuctor at old Buckingham to make sure you are clear on what to do in a emergancy. Hopefully you will never need it Dude but its still better to know. If you want to know what it feels like do low hop and pops

bpa op manual section 10.3

EMERGENCY PROCEDURES - AIRCRAFT

3.1. In the case of an emergency the JM should follow instructions from the pilot where practicable.

3.2. Where an emergency occurs at low altitude parachutists may be required to remain on board.

Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun

[Reginald 0]

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What scared me though is how few of the people - many with hundreds of jumps - knew how to do a head-high stable h&p. As a CRWdog I didn't blink, but I saw some interesting unstable deployments.

Yep, peronally I practice deploying, stable just as I pass the tail on every hop n pop.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[mjosparky 3]

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Yep, peronally I practice deploying, stable just as I pass the tail on every hop n pop.

A H&P is deploying just as you pass the tail. Any longer and it would be a stable delay.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[catfishhunter 1]

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A H&P is deploying just as you pass the tail. Any longer and it would be a stable delay.

Yep


I just say I'm geetin out low but manifest still calls it a hop-n-pop. I gave up trying to explain I am NOT making a hop n pop just a low altitude skydive since I'm takin' 12-15 before dumping. I don't put it in my log book as a hop-n-pop either unless it is a Hop-n-Pop. I try to make a true H&P every 5-6 times I go low just to keep the muscle memory and they are pretty cool in their own right

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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Yep, peronally I practice deploying, stable just as I pass the tail on every hop n pop.

A H&P is deploying just as you pass the tail. Any longer and it would be a stable delay.

I call that a hop-n-pack...

Anyway... when was the last time any of us did that? Its been awhile for me since I did a no-kiddin' hop-n-pop and not what was really a 10ish second delay. The last no-kiddin' hop-n-pop I did I have to admit, the open dynamics took me a bit by surprise, again, as its not that often I do one. A notable difference in tossing one's pilot chute, feeling the container open, feeling the bag lift off, getting line stretch, feeling the canopy start to open... you can "note" as each one happens, almost... much differnet then a terminal opening. I know some of that has to do with the fact (I think) that I jump a "small" kill-line ZP pilot chute vs. a big F111 "tent" of a pilot chute.

Anyway, hop-n-pop at 2K anyone!??!

[fcajump 153]

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Yep, peronally I practice deploying, stable just as I pass the tail on every hop n pop.

A H&P is deploying just as you pass the tail. Any longer and it would be a stable delay.

I call that a hop-n-pack...

Anyway... when was the last time any of us did that? Its been awhile for me since I did a no-kiddin' hop-n-pop and not what was really a 10ish second delay. The last no-kiddin' hop-n-pop I did I have to admit, the open dynamics took me a bit by surprise, again, as its not that often I do one. A notable difference in tossing one's pilot chute, feeling the container open, feeling the bag lift off, getting line stretch, feeling the canopy start to open... you can "note" as each one happens, almost... much differnet then a terminal opening. I know some of that has to do with the fact (I think) that I jump a "small" kill-line ZP pilot chute vs. a big F111 "tent" of a pilot chute.

Anyway, hop-n-pop at 2K anyone!??!

I do them (almost) weekly for our airshow. Actually from 2.5k', but with my Spectre taking ~800-1k to open, that's as low as I like to go...

Feels REALLY wierd to feel each of those steps as they play out almost horizontally behind you before swinging feet first...

I bet that most folks in the Otter at my home DZ would be very nervous getting out that "low".

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Hmmm... interesting "fact-oid" in relation to the Otter, N203E, that crashed in Sullivan... not the first time it was involved in a major mishap...

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NTSB Identification: LAX90LA298B.
The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 44505.
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Wednesday, August 22, 1990 in CALIFORNIA CITY, CA
Probable Cause Approval Date: 3/12/1993
Aircraft: de Havilland DHC-6, registration: N203E
Injuries: 3 Uninjured.
BOTH AIRCRAFT WERE INVOLVED IN A MOVIE OPERATION WITH THE HELICOPTER (N250CA) CARRYING A CAMERMAN. THE DHC-6 (N203E) CARRIED PARACHUTISTS. THE PURPOSE OF THE OPERATION WAS TO PHOTOGRAPH THE PARACHUTISTS EXITING THE JUMP AIRCRAFT. THE PILOT OF N250CA SAID HE WAS IN FORMATION WITH N203E AND WAS MANEUVERING INTO CAMERA POSITION WHEN THE ROTOR BLADES CONTACTED THE VERTICAL STABILIZER AND RUDDER OF N203E. THE PILOT OF N203E WAS NOT IN A POSITION TO HAVE VISUAL CONTACT WITH THE HELICOPTER.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
THE FAILURE OF THE HELICOPTER PILOT TO MAINTAIN ADEQUATE CLEARANCE FROM THE JUMP AIRCRAFT. A FACTOR IN THE ACCIDENT WAS THE INABILITY OF THE JUMP AIRCRAFT PILOT TO MAINTAIN VISUAL CONTACT WITH THE HELICOPTER.

... and here all this time I thought it was N121PM that had the mid-air with the helicopter while filming scenes for Point Break at Cal City.

As I reall hearing the stories, sevearl folks still on-board got out low on that one... including 4 (???) observers that made their first Skydive as the pilot managed to wrestle the aircraft back under control and land it.

[mjosparky 3]

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Anyway... when was the last time any of us did that?

As was mentioned before, several times a year at demos. Used to do one for the City Bell and due to the approach to LAX we were lucky to get 2,000 feet. Roll out of a 206 with 15 lbs. of flag hanging around my waist, get open, deploy flag, find target and try not to forget to smile for the kiddies.

But that is why they paid us the “Big Bucks.”

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[airdvr 200]

Not meant to be disrespectful or anything, but I always laugh a little when I hear people discussing what they would do in this situation. Most are assuming that there would be time to decide or take action. Possibly, and in that case I'd get out and use my reserve as low as 500'. However, it is much more likely you won't have time to do much of anything.

Personally I'm really beginning to hate takeoffs.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Beerlight 0]

I've personally had 4 guys exit at 800 ft, from a C-182 I was flying, when I experienced almost a total power loss during climbout. 2 used their reserves, 2 their mains...... no problems.