Is the real problem meds, or guns?

[rushmc 18]

What is not being reported

Quote

•Columbine mass-killer Eric Harris was taking Luvox – like Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor and many others, a modern and widely prescribed type of antidepressant drug called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, or SSRIs. Harris and fellow student Dylan Klebold went on a hellish school shooting rampage in 1999 during which they killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 24 others before turning their guns on themselves.Luvox manufacturer Solvay Pharmaceuticals concedes that during short-term controlled clinical trials, 4 percent of children and youth taking Luvox – that’s 1 in 25 – developed mania, a dangerous and violence-prone mental derangement characterized by extreme excitement and delusion.
•Patrick Purdy went on a schoolyard shooting rampage in Stockton, Calif., in 1989, which became the catalyst for the original legislative frenzy to ban “semiautomatic assault weapons” in California and the nation. The 25-year-old Purdy, who murdered five children and wounded 30, had been on Amitriptyline, an antidepressant, as well as the antipsychotic drug Thorazine.
•Kip Kinkel, 15, murdered his parents in 1998 and the next day went to his school, Thurston High in Springfield, Ore., and opened fire on his classmates, killing two and wounding 22 others. He had been prescribed both Prozac and Ritalin.
•In 1988, 31-year-old Laurie Dann went on a shooting rampage in a second-grade classroom in Winnetka, Ill., killing one child and wounding six. She had been taking the antidepressant Anafranil as well as Lithium, long used to treat mania.
•In Paducah, Ky., in late 1997, 14-year-old Michael Carneal, son of a prominent attorney, traveled to Heath High School and started shooting students in a prayer meeting taking place in the school’s lobby, killing three and leaving another paralyzed. Carneal reportedly was on Ritalin.
•In 2005, 16-year-old Native American Jeff Weise, living on Minnesota’s Red Lake Indian Reservation, shot and killed nine people and wounded five others before killing himself. Weise had been taking Prozac.
•In another famous case, 47-year-old Joseph T. Wesbecker, just a month after he began taking Prozac in 1989, shot 20 workers at Standard Gravure Corp. in Louisville, Ky., killing nine. Prozac-maker Eli Lilly later settled a lawsuit brought by survivors.
•Kurt Danysh, 18, shot his own father to death in 1996, a little more than two weeks after starting on Prozac. Danysh’s description of own his mental-emotional state at the time of the murder is chilling: “I didn’t realize I did it until after it was done,” Danysh said. “This might sound weird, but it felt like I had no control of what I was doing, like I was left there just holding a gun.”
•John Hinckley, age 25, took four Valium two hours before shooting and almost killing President Ronald Reagan in 1981. In the assassination attempt, Hinckley also wounded press secretary James Brady, Secret Service agent Timothy McCarthy and policeman Thomas Delahanty.
•Andrea Yates, in one of the most heartrending crimes in modern history, drowned all five of her children – aged 7 years down to 6 months – in a bathtub. Insisting inner voices commanded her to kill her children, she had become increasingly psychotic over the course of several years. At her 2006 murder re-trial (after a 2002 guilty verdict was overturned on appeal), Yates’ longtime friend Debbie Holmes testified: “She asked me if I thought Satan could read her mind and if I believed in demon possession.” And Dr. George Ringholz, after evaluating Yates for two days, recounted an experience she had after the birth of her first child: “What she described was feeling a presence … Satan … telling her to take a knife and stab her son Noah,” Ringholz said, adding that Yates’ delusion at the time of the bathtub murders was not only that she had to kill her children to save them, but that Satan had entered her and that she had to be executed in order to kill Satan.Yates had been taking the antidepressant Effexor. In November 2005, more than four years after Yates drowned her children, Effexor manufacturer Wyeth Pharmaceuticals quietly added “homicidal ideation” to the drug’s list of “rare adverse events.” The Medical Accountability Network, a private nonprofit focused on medical ethics issues, publicly criticized Wyeth, saying Effexor’s “homicidal ideation” risk wasn’t well-publicized and that Wyeth failed to send letters to doctors or issue warning labels announcing the change.And what exactly does “rare” mean in the phrase “rare adverse events”? The FDA defines it as occurring in less than one in 1,000 people. But since that same year 19.2 million prescriptions for Effexor were filled in the U.S., statistically that means thousands of Americans might experience “homicidal ideation” – murderous thoughts – as a result of taking just this one brand of antidepressant drug.Effexor is Wyeth’s best-selling drug, by the way, which in one recent year brought in over $3 billion in sales, accounting for almost a fifth of the company’s annual revenues.
•One more case is instructive, that of 12-year-old Christopher Pittman, who struggled in court to explain why he murdered his grandparents, who had provided the only love and stability he’d ever known in his turbulent life. “When I was lying in my bed that night,” he testified, “I couldn’t sleep because my voice in my head kept echoing through my mind telling me to kill them.” Christopher had been angry with his grandfather, who had disciplined him earlier that day for hurting another student during a fight on the school bus. So later that night, he shot both of his grandparents in the head with a .410 shotgun as they slept and then burned down their South Carolina home, where he had lived with them.”I got up, got the gun, and I went upstairs and I pulled the trigger,” he recalled. “Through the whole thing, it was like watching your favorite TV show. You know what is going to happen, but you can’t do anything to stop it.”Pittman’s lawyers would later argue that the boy had been a victim of “involuntary intoxication,” since his doctors had him taking the antidepressants Paxil and Zoloft just prior to the murders.Paxil’s known “adverse drug reactions” – according to the drug’s FDA-approved label – include “mania,” “insomnia,” “anxiety,” “agitation,” “confusion,” “amnesia,” “depression,” “paranoid reaction,” “psychosis,” “hostility,” “delirium,” “hallucinations,” “abnormal thinking,” “depersonalization” and “lack of emotion,” among others.The preceding examples are only a few of the best-known offenders who had been taking prescribed psychiatric drugs before committing their violent crimes – there are many others.

got info from WND

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[aphid 0]

Is there data somewhere that indicates how many Americans over the age of puberty are on prescription psyche med's at any given time comparative to other western populations?

That might be thought-provoking.

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Is there data somewhere that indicates how many Americans over the age of puberty are on prescription psyche med's at any given time comparative to other western populations?

That might be thought-provoking.

Probably
I know that we drug our school age kids at a high rate

The school wanted to force one of my sons on ADD meds

We did not allow it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jclalor 12]

Interesting, out of the several hundreds of thousands of gun murders during your time frame, you try to cite a small handful of cases as compelling evidence.

The only thing missing were all the cases where 12 years old girls committed murders after getting the HPV vaccine.

[jclalor 12]

Quote

Quote

Is there data somewhere that indicates how many Americans over the age of puberty are on prescription psyche med's at any given time comparative to other western populations?

That might be thought-provoking.

I think the ones under the age of puberty on meds would be more interesting.

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Interesting, out of the several hundreds of thousands of gun murders during your time frame, you try to cite a small handful of cases as compelling evidence.

The only thing missing were all the cases where 12 years old girls committed murders after getting the HPV vaccine.

Cited as compelling evidence?

Now that is jump

I guess looking at everything remains out of the question in you mind

It is the guns and nothing else then?

You going to tell billvon he is wrong when he sugests everything should be on the table then?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Southern_Man 0]

All of the SSRIs have a black box warning against use in adolescents and young adults (up to age 25) because of increased suicidality. It increased to twice the rate of those taking placebo. I am unaware of any effects on violence towards others.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[jclalor 12]

Quote

Quote

Interesting, out of the several hundreds of thousands of gun murders during your time frame, you try to cite a small handful of cases as compelling evidence.

The only thing missing were all the cases where 12 years old girls committed murders after getting the HPV vaccine.

Cited as compelling evidence?

Quote

Now that is jump

I guess looking at everything remains out of the question in you mind

It is the guns and nothing else then?

You going to tell billvon he is wrong when he sugests everything should be on the table then?

I think the overwhelming majority of murders by crazy people are being committed by non-medicated crazy people. Will some medicated people still do crazy things? You bet... but at a much lower rate.

[airdvr 197]

Quote

All of the SSRIs have a black box warning against use in adolescents and young adults (up to age 25) because of increased suicidality. It increased to twice the rate of those taking placebo. I am unaware of any effects on violence towards others.

Isn't it strange that most of the shooters killed themselves after wards?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[airdvr 197]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Interesting, out of the several hundreds of thousands of gun murders during your time frame, you try to cite a small handful of cases as compelling evidence.

The only thing missing were all the cases where 12 years old girls committed murders after getting the HPV vaccine.

Cited as compelling evidence?

Quote

Now that is jump

I guess looking at everything remains out of the question in you mind

It is the guns and nothing else then?

You going to tell billvon he is wrong when he sugests everything should be on the table then?

I think the overwhelming majority of murders by crazy people are being committed by non-medicated crazy people. Will some medicated people still do crazy things? You bet... but at a much lower rate.

But you're not the expert. I've said all along that we need to look at the shooter not the weapon to find the answer(s).

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Interesting, out of the several hundreds of thousands of gun murders during your time frame, you try to cite a small handful of cases as compelling evidence.

The only thing missing were all the cases where 12 years old girls committed murders after getting the HPV vaccine.

Cited as compelling evidence?

Quote

Now that is jump

I guess looking at everything remains out of the question in you mind

It is the guns and nothing else then?

You going to tell billvon he is wrong when he sugests everything should be on the table then?

I think the overwhelming majority of murders by crazy people are being committed by non-medicated crazy people. Will some medicated people still do crazy things? You bet... but at a much lower rate.

Cite?

[lawrocket 3]

Wow. So now the argument is shifting from, "Mentally ill need treatment to prevent these murders" to "The mentally ill need to stop treatment to prevent these murders."

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Wow. So now the argument is shifting from, "Mentally ill need treatment to prevent these murders" to "The mentally ill need to stop treatment to prevent these murders."

Not sure where you get this

Can you clarify?

I guess my reasoning for posting was to try and get all the parts and pieces out there since so many want it just to be about guns

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[lawrocket 3]

For the past couple of weeks, all the talk and blame has been about the mental health system, people need treatment, BLAH! Now you post this, where there is an indication that mental health treatment is being blamed for it.

Too many want to blame one aspect out of a plethora of things. Blame guns. Or blame mental health. Or blame the mental health system. Blame the schools. The parents.

It’s all these things. And there are people with a point they want to make.

I'll put it this way - I give 90% odds that Scientologists put out this "medication" stuff.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Shotgun 1]

Quote

What is not being reported

Not being reported? I see stuff in the news all the time about the dangers of pharmaceuticals, and how some of them have possibly been a factor in school shootings and other homicides and violent crimes.

That being said, no doubt the drug alcohol is involved in homicides and violent crimes far more often than any other drug (prescription or non).

And of course, there's no way to know how many crimes may be being prevented because mentally ill people are taking medication.

Anyhow, I think it's a valid concern to question what effects these drugs may be having (both positive and negative) regarding the tendency toward violence.

[billvon 2,400]

Well, let's use the NRA solution to this problem then:

The problem is that not enough people are taking meds. If more people were taking psychoactive drugs, then problems stemming from such drugs would disappear.

[SkyDekker 1,123]

Quote

For the past couple of weeks, all the talk and blame has been about the mental health system, people need treatment, BLAH! Now you post this, where there is an indication that mental health treatment is being blamed for it.

Too many want to blame one aspect out of a plethora of things. Blame guns. Or blame mental health. Or blame the mental health system. Blame the schools. The parents.

It’s all these things. And there are people with a point they want to make.

I'll put it this way - I give 90% odds that Scientologists put out this "medication" stuff.

Wouldn't be the first time that pharmaceuticals had less than desirable side effects. Wouldn't be the first time they were hidding for the longest time either.

It isn't about blame, it is about looking for contributing factors.

[OHCHUTE 0]

The real problem is the mental health industry that includes the Pharm industry. The farm industry wants everyone on a daily pill for a variety of problems (We'll soon have a pill for cell phone addiction! All are soldiers are sick, PTSD etc.) The shrinks wouldn't have any customers if they didn't perscribe pills. Now, pills are one of main reasons kids are breaking into houses as granny has the medicine cabinet filled with all kinds of goodies.

I vote pills are the problem as many of these nutjobs might not do what they intend to do if they were not on drugs. Also, not eating enough protein could be a contributing factor. A diet of carbohydrates only, which many kids are one now with all the sugar and snack foods they're not even thinking straight. You do know high carbo diet is used for brainwashing. Don't just blame pills. Diet is also a factor.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Also, not eating enough protein could be a contributing factor

true, vegetarians can randomly flip on you without warning

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rhaig 0]

Quote

Quote

Also, not eating enough protein could be a contributing factor

true, vegetarians can randomly flip on you without warning

most vegans and vegetarians I know are more aware of the amount of protein they eat than most of my omnivore friends.

--
Rob

[lawrocket 3]

Indeed. We keep track of the protein we eat.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[jclalor 12]

Quote

A diet of carbohydrates only, which many kids are one now with all the sugar and snack foods they're not even thinking straight. You do know high carbo diet is used for brainwashing. Don't just blame pills. Diet is also a factor.

Do you know what happens to a child that eats zero protein?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwashiorkor

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Well, let's use the NRA solution to this problem then:

The problem is that not enough people are taking meds. If more people were taking psychoactive drugs, then problems stemming from such drugs would disappear.

Ok, you got me

But what I was really trying to point out it the problem is more complicated than just guns (which I know you understand)

What I was really trying to point out that in all of the examples given, the killer has mental problems that were known because he was given meds by a DR

So to all, I apologize as the title was mis-leading

However, that is not to say that there is not some discussion needed about how easily we medicate oursleves

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Namowal 0]

This sounds cynical, but it wouldn't surprise me if cases like this are about as easy to predict and control as the weather. I don't think it's a matter of "If only his parents (or society) did X."
Also, while I believe kids are over-medicated for behavior problems, I don't think this the meds are turning them into destructive monsters. (Even if their defense attorney says otherwise) If every kid (or even one percent of every kid) on meds went went on killing sprees, this would be happening every day.
Also, the list of killer-kids-on-meds sounds scary, but its possible that they had serious behavior problems to begin with, which in turn prompted the adults in their lives to seek treatment. Maybe the only "bad" thing about the medicine is that it didn't work.
Just my two cents.

My blog with the skydiving duck cartoons.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Let's see if you can complete the picture here:

99.9% of people who own guns never commit a violent crime. Therefore, guns do not cause people to become violent criminals.

99.9% of people who are prescribed psychoactive drugs never commit a violent crime. Therefore, ___________ (fill in the blank).

Why doesn't the argument cut both ways?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)