More Rock-Solid Republican Campaign Logic

[masterblaster72 0]

From here:

Quote

Romney, speaking with NBC's Natalie Morales in an interview set to air Thursday night, said "there's nothing we're hiding" with regard to the couple's finances, but that unveiling a more extensive record of their tax history would "only give [Democrats] more ammunition."

So, just so we're clear:

1. The Romneys have nothing to hide, even though they are hiding the tax filings being requested for disclosure, and

2. Though there is nothing to hide, the information on those those tax filings would "give democrats more ammunition." Even though there is nothing to hide.

Silly for me to think that if there were nothing to hide they would release the filings, and that if there were no damning information on those filings, the democrats would have no ammunition, and would in fact look quite foolish (big points for Romney).

I hope the Obama campaign continues to up the ante on Romney for these filings. Looking forward to either more desparate squirming or Romney scoring a big one by showing us the documents and putting the issue to rest (because as his wife says, there is nothing to hide).

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[normiss 644]

I will never understand why we feel the need to attack someone for becoming financially successful.
Even to the point of feeling entitled to a portion of THEIR success.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

2. Though there is nothing to hide, the information on those those tax filings would "give democrats more ammunition." Even though there is nothing to hide.

absolutely - because neither party would try to leverage something emotional to the voters and try to make something perfectly legal just appear to be distasteful

they'd never do that. PR teams never, EVER, spin.

you have be a masochist to even think about public office

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Gravitymaster 0]

He does have a secret strategy, but you will have to vote for him before you can find out what it is.

[Bertt 0]

The issue is not becoming successful. The issue is that if you invest your time in making a company successful and receive a wage, a salary, or a commission, your tax rate is higher than someone who invests his money in the same company, but pays a lower tax rate on his dividends or capital gains ( which actually means you took some money out of the company instead of leaving it on the company's books for additional investment, but that's another story).
I'm kinda critical of the idea that job creators should be taxed at a different rate than job doers. How 'bout you?

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[normiss 644]

I'm curious why then, you prefer to attack someone abiding by IRS tax law in lieu of trying to get tax law changed.

This should in no way be about Romney or singling him out.
This is all about the IRS tax laws.
Looks to me like he has a fantastic team of financial folks doing his work for him.
He clearly finds and hires talented folks.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

I'm kinda critical of the idea that job creators should be taxed at a different rate than job doers. How 'bout you?

"job creators" isn't any different than "job doers" - it's just a different job.

I think all income should just be taxed the same. So I'm also critical.


Lower tax rates to "encourage" investment is just more social engineering in an area where the market would find its own stability point without the intrusion of government.

These guys just really need to stop tweaking all the knobs on the machine.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

I'm curious why then, you prefer to attack someone abiding by IRS tax law in lieu of trying to get tax law changed.

This should in no way be about Romney or singling him out.
This is all about the IRS tax laws.
Looks to me like he has a fantastic team of financial folks doing his work for him.
He clearly finds and hires talented folks.

this ^

if people were honest - they'd do exactly that. So clearly this is just stupid PR jockeying

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,476]

>The Romneys have nothing to hide, even though they are hiding the tax filings
>being requested for disclosure

Well, to be fair, they're not sure what's in them, so they can't really say what they are hiding. Ann Romney recently: "there's nothing we're hiding. It's been managed by a blind trust since before Mitt was governor, you know, 2002 forward. And so, you know, I'll be curious to see what's in there too."

So it might come as a surprise to the Romneys as well.

[tkhayes 154]

I also think it is reasonable to know who we are dealing with. I have to pee test to fly an airplane - he gets to run the country - there is actually a higher standard, not clearly defined, no.

Tax returns are pretty normal for candidates, I bet those tax returns have been FULLY vetted within the party itself.

He has something to hide and I think the voters need to take that into account. I expect he is/has probably taken advantage of a lot of loopholes/reg/rules, albeit legal, but certainly things that would make him look bad.

As I expect he is also promoting legislation to plug those loopholes/regs/rules, which would be paradoxical at the least - (offshore accounts in particular) Joe Average does not want to find out that he has been paying 18% taxes and the filthy rich guy has been paying 13%. Romney does not want Joe Average to know that either I expect.

Success is fine, no one ever said anyone has a problem with that. The problem lies when the 'successful' people rig the system for their own means while ignoring the possible 'success' of the rest of the country - which is pretty much where it stands today.

The rich get to write the laws, the rich have the most influence, the rich control their own salaries within the corporations that they run (and the workers as well), so the rich keep getting richer, and the no one would complain if the wages of the average man increased over the years at the same rate as the average Corporate officer....that would be even 'fair', but it is not really the case.

"We the people" is a joke and that is what people want to know and see as 'fair'.

Bottom line, if he had nothing to hide, then he would have nothing to hide. The innocent man seldom 'lawyers up'.

[quade 3]

Quote

I will never understand why we feel the need to attack someone for becoming financially successful.
Even to the point of feeling entitled to a portion of THEIR success.

The point isn't to punish them for being successful.
The point is to punish them for lying about what they're hiding.

If a person thinks this is a dishonest tactic, then I'm wondering how much of a stink they put up about the birtherism issue.

The thing is though, Obama released his birth certificate and the birthers still complained.

If Romeny would just release his tax records and prove he had nothing to hide, this would all go away.

Unless, of course, it was found out that he lied about his records. In which case, he deserves the hell he made for himself.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Bertt 0]

You mean like writing to my congressmen to tell them how I feel about the issue? Did that.
Pointing out in a public forum that some influential politicians don't have an interest in changing the tax code because they personally benefit from it the way it is. Did that.
Or asking questions like "If corporations are people, why don't they pay the individual tax rate?". Did that.

(I was going to bring about social change by occupying Wall Street and sitting in the rain banging on a drum, but some Canadians beat me to that one. Darned Canadians; they walk among us...)

Anyway, if you have any other good ideas that will help get the tax law changed, please let me know.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[lawrocket 3]

I am of the strong belief that a tax return is nobody else's business at all. Period. End of story. A person's entire existence is reflected in a tax return, and the information contained within can be used to seriously fuck someone over in a way that cannot be easily reversed.

If a person wants to release a tax return, then fine. Go for it! But to hold it against a person for wanting to maintain some privacy is utter ridiculousness. It's the whole paparazzi mentality of the public that thinks they DESERVE to see this sort of thing with people.

I understand the concern people have. But it also seems that if things were amiss it would have been caught by the IRS.

Quote

I have to pee test to fly an airplane - he gets to run the country - there is actually a higher standard, not clearly defined, no.

This is remarkably similar to the "we need to know that he was born in America" argument. His successes and failures, deductions and tax rates are nobody's business.

Quote

He has something to hide and I think the voters need to take that into account.

No. He has his own business. I personally think we need to see each male candidate's dick and the bared breasts of every female candidate. Really, why wouldn't any candidate show us everything? Shouldn't we, as the voting public, get to see everything? Oh, she won't show them? She's got something to hide, eh? Did she have a boob job? That's relevant with the level of thinking, ain't it?

Bullshit. He is hiding it because it's his RIGHT to hide it. We're at a time in this country where people exercising rights are being blasted for it. Pretty disgusting, if you ask me.

Quote

Average does not want to find out that he has been paying 18% taxes and the filthy rich guy has been paying 13%. Romney does not want Joe Average to know that either I expect.

A fine argument. Looks like there is no use to putting it out there. You know what his tax returns show, so what's the point?

You've PROVEN the reason not to.

Quote

Success is fine, no one ever said anyone has a problem with that.

Bullshit. Plenty of people have a problem with it. Check out "Occupy Wall Street."

Quote

The problem lies when the 'successful' people rig the system for their own means while ignoring the possible 'success' of the rest of the country - which is pretty much where it stands today.

How did Romney rig the system? He didn't. He couldn't have. He's not held federal office. So this reason is irrelevant. It's a reason for all sitting federal officials - elected and otherwise - to release there's - including Ryan. But this excludes Romney.

Quote

The rich get to write the laws, the rich have the most influence

Yes. That's why the top ten percent don't pay taxes. The federal revenues come mostly from the poorest 1%.

Quote

he rich control their own salaries

BINGO! You run the business and you get to determine your own pay. You run a business, tk - ergo, you're a gazillionaire. Pay up! Or it only that the ones able to make the most money are getting the most for it?

Quote

hat would be even 'fair'

"Fair" is completely subjective. You know it.

Quote

if he had nothing to hide, then he would have nothing to hide.

There isn't a person alive who is an open book on everything. Because there's stuff that is your business and nobody else's.

I have nothing to hide. But I still hide it. Because it's my business.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

I personally think we need to see each male candidate's dick and the bared breasts of every female candidate.

You must love Johnson!

LBJ’s habit of pulling out his genitals in the presence of his critics as evidence of his greater manliness is well known, as is the incident when, in response to the nagging questions of journalists as to why American men were being sent to fight in Vietnam, LBJ finally showed them his penis and snapped, “This is why!” Source

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[lawrocket 3]

Yet another form of LBJ's "the Treatment."

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

The point isn't to punish them for being successful.
The point is to punish them for lying about what they're hiding.

If a person thinks this is a dishonest tactic, then I'm wondering how much of a stink they put up about the birtherism issue.


The thing is though, Obama released his birth certificate and the birthers still complained.

If Romeny would just release his tax records and prove he had nothing to hide, this would all go away.

Unless, of course, it was found out that he lied about his records. In which case, he deserves the hell he made for himself.

Quade - you just highlighted the best justification he has for non disclosure. People will still make hay with the information. So from his perspective, why should he?

What Romney fights is a current expectation of our Presidential candidates.

[quade 3]

Sauce for the goose.

If Obama had to release his birth certificate, then all is fair in this case.

Don't open a door and think you're ever going to be the only one who uses it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[masterblaster72 0]

Quote

Sauce for the goose.

If Obama had to release his birth certificate, then all is fair in this case.

Don't open a door and think you're ever going to be the only one who uses it.

Yup, it's about time republicans get used to having their own filthy tactics used against them.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Sauce for the goose.

If Obama had to release his birth certificate, then all is fair in this case.

Don't open a door and think you're ever going to be the only one who uses it.

Was Romney a birther? Don't recall it.

[davjohns 1]

I wonder what Obama is hiding by keeping his school records and such from the public. But I don't think I have a right to them. Romney released tax returns and people attacked him because the millions he paid in taxes wasn't enough. I'm not surprised he is balking at releasing more. I generally think anyone running for POTUS should be prepared to release everything. However, given historical precedent, I think it is hypocritical to give Romeny a rash about this.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

Well, to be fair, they're not sure what's in them, so they can't really say what they are hiding. Ann Romney recently: "there's nothing we're hiding. It's been managed by a blind trust since before Mitt was governor, you know, 2002 forward. And so, you know, I'll be curious to see what's in there too."

So it might come as a surprise to the Romneys as well.

If there was anything to hide, the IRS would have been all over it by now, especially with that Chicago crew doing their best to win re-election.

We are all engines of karma

[billvon 2,476]

>If there was anything to hide, the IRS would have been all over it by now

To be clear I don't think they did anything illegal (or, more accurately, their tax people probably didn't do anything illegal.) But it would be embarrassing for the Romneys if their returns showed that they paid less than 10% one year, for example. And from Ann Romney's statement, they may not be 100% sure how much they paid.

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

Tax returns are pretty normal for candidates,...

By law, they are not required to do this. Why provide fodder to a group of people who will turn you into a demon because you were successful? That's what the Chicago folks are doing, because it's really the best they can do.

Same thing with Obama's college transcripts. By law, they are not required to be released. There are lots of people around who think the reason he won't release that information is because he took student aid under an foreign student program. One would think that's easy to disprove. Just release the college transcripts. But, Obama hasn't done that. Why?

Quote

He has something to hide and I think the voters need to take that into account. I expect he is/has probably taken advantage of a lot of loopholes/reg/rules, albeit legal, but certainly things that would make him look bad.

Romney has knowingly done something illegal, i.e., with mens rea? Seriously, get over that. Do you think this guy does his own taxes? Don't you think the people he's paying to do his taxes are earning their money? Do you honestly think those tax processes are so black and white that the Chicago crew couldn't possibly distort them?

Quote

As I expect he is also promoting legislation to plug those loopholes/regs/rules, which would be paradoxical at the least - (offshore accounts in particular) Joe Average does not want to find out that he has been paying 18% taxes and the filthy rich guy has been paying 13%. Romney does not want Joe Average to know that either I expect.

Specious argument, see above.
Get over it.

Quote

The problem lies when the 'successful' people rig the system for their own means while ignoring the possible 'success' of the rest of the country - which is pretty much where it stands today.

You should look at the list of companies that Bain Capital helped make successful.

Right now, you strike me as someone who can't trust people acting in markets, where they have choice in the people they decide to deal with, but you do trust someone in government, where you won't have choice with whom to deal.

Quote

The rich get to write the laws, the rich have the most influence, the rich control their own salaries within the corporations that they run (and the workers as well), so the rich keep getting richer, and the no one would complain if the wages of the average man increased over the years at the same rate as the average Corporate officer....that would be even 'fair', but it is not really the case.

You sound a bit like a victim here. Don't you run you're own corporation?

Quote

"We the people" is a joke and that is what people want to know and see as 'fair'.

Only if you quit.

Quote

Bottom line, if he had nothing to hide, then he would have nothing to hide. The innocent man seldom 'lawyers up'.

Ah, in Romney's context, bullshit...

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

If Obama had to release his birth certificate, then all is fair in this case.

Well, that's required to run for office. Releasing your tax returns, or your college transcripts, is not required to run for office.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

I generally think anyone running for POTUS should be prepared to release everything.

-1

They're humans. To require that level of disclosure equates to "For the greater good", IMO. That's nonsense.

We are all engines of karma