Remster 24 #76 August 13, 2012 Quote Quote I can't wait for Ryan and Biden to have a debate. October 11, Kentucky. I am looking forward to this too, but probably not for the right reason. Perv. Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #77 August 13, 2012 QuoteQuoteRyan is nothing more than a hair cut on top of a copy of Atlas Shrugged. I can see how he is appealing to the Tea Party and father right end of the party, but I can't see how he helps more than he hurts and vice versa. I think he's total vote neutral. I think he hurts a little more than he helps. He'll pick up some votes from far right voters who otherwise might stay home on election day, but he's likely to lose moderate votes that went to Obama in 2008 that Romney may have otherwise won with a running mate as moderate as he was when he governed Massachusetts. Those far right votes are worth one vote each, since they are not going to Obama under any circumstance. The moderate votes count for two votes each, since each one adds a vote to one candidate's tally while simultaneously subtracting a vote from the other candidates tally. The fault in this sort of zero sum math where some votes somehow count double while others are worth one...is a presumption that these people will vote for a candidate. They don't have to, and historically don't nearly half the time. But I think Quade and JCD should consider the fact that their clear partisan bias makes it hard for them to objectively measure the impact of the Ryan selection. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #78 August 13, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteRyan is nothing more than a hair cut on top of a copy of Atlas Shrugged. I can see how he is appealing to the Tea Party and father right end of the party, but I can't see how he helps more than he hurts and vice versa. I think he's total vote neutral. I think he hurts a little more than he helps. He'll pick up some votes from far right voters who otherwise might stay home on election day, but he's likely to lose moderate votes that went to Obama in 2008 that Romney may have otherwise won with a running mate as moderate as he was when he governed Massachusetts. Those far right votes are worth one vote each, since they are not going to Obama under any circumstance. The moderate votes count for two votes each, since each one adds a vote to one candidate's tally while simultaneously subtracting a vote from the other candidates tally. The fault in this sort of zero sum math where some votes somehow count double while others are worth one...is a presumption that these people will vote for a candidate. They don't have to, and historically don't nearly half the time. But I think Quade and JCD should consider the fact that their clear partisan bias makes it hard for them to objectively measure the impact of the Ryan selection. It is not unreasonable to assume that most moderates who voted for Obama in 2008 will also cast a vote this November. Further, it is logical to conclude that one of those moderates voting for Romney effectively subtracts a vote from Obama's tally and adds a vote to Romney's. I think Kelpdiver should consider the fact that his compulsion to argue makes it hard for him to consider an argument on its merits alone.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #79 August 13, 2012 Hey, I'm just looking at it from a number of votes gained versus lost. I think the VP selection in this case is vote neutral. He loses as many as he gains from the party extremes and doesn't really generate anything from the middle because his fiscal is whacko. If you want to call that a biased opinion, fine, but the numbers aren't going to lie here. Most of the middle are going to think Ryan's ideas about the budget are nuts (mostly because they are). They aren't going to vote FOR Romney because Ryan is his VP candidate. They also aren't going to vote FOR Obama because of Ryan either, because they realize Ryan isn't that dangerous, he's a haircut on "Atlas Shrugged" but that's about it. Definitely not as nuts as say, Palin who actively pushed the middle away from the Republicans.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #80 August 13, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuotehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPxMZ1WdINs This is what Obama and Biden have to look forward to. This is what the USA must avoid: www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/opinion/sunday/romneys-tax-plan-defies-the-rules-of-math.html That Fairy Tale has already been debunked. Where? Certainly not in this thread. By the author himself before he got started on his Fairy Tale. Quote"with the Republican convention just two weeks away, we know next to nothing of the plan’s details". But of course he felt he could criticize it anyway. This is the same David Firestone who called Barney Frank a "Centrist". I'm sure Barney is a Centrist from Mr. Firestones far left wing perspective. Let's talk about the Democratic Budget......Oh, wait...they haven't had one for over 3 years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #81 August 13, 2012 Quote It is not unreasonable to assume that most moderates who voted for Obama in 2008 will also cast a vote this November. Further, it is logical to conclude that one of those moderates voting for Romney effectively subtracts a vote from Obama's tally and adds a vote to Romney's. Actually, it's highly presumptuous to assume anything for the sort. 2008 had a historically high voter turnout and Obama got most of his margin from citizens that tend not to vote. Given how few of those promises were enacted, they're not guaranteed to vote at all...they may have concluded that they voted for Bush II and that there's little point. BTW, you're in no position to cry out about other's compulsion to argue. You're in Speaker's Corner, FFS, on your own volition. I think you and Quade are hoping that the Obama lead holds up, and that none of these events will change that reality. I'd still favor him to win, but it's not by much of a margin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #82 August 13, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuotewww.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/opinion/sunday/romneys-tax-plan-defies-the-rules-of-math.html That Fairy Tale has already been debunked. Where? Certainly not in this thread. By the author himself before he got started on his Fairy Tale. Quote"with the Republican convention just two weeks away, we know next to nothing of the plan’s details". But of course he felt he could criticize it anyway. Not knowing all of the the details does not imply that there is not enough known to logically conclude that Romney's claims are not mathematically sound.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #83 August 13, 2012 Quote2008 had a historically high voter turnout and Obama got most of his margin from citizens that tend not to vote. Interesting. Do you have a source for that information? Forgive me if I think it sounds dubious.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #84 August 13, 2012 QuoteI think you and Quade are hoping that the Obama lead holds up, and that none of these events will change that reality. I'd still favor him to win, but it's not by much of a margin. You talking popular or electoral? The second greatly amplifies the first. A 5% popular advantage could be a landslide in electoral.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #85 August 13, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuotehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPxMZ1WdINs This is what Obama and Biden have to look forward to. This is what the USA must avoid: www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/opinion/sunday/romneys-tax-plan-defies-the-rules-of-math.html That Fairy Tale has already been debunked. Where? Certainly not in this thread. By the author himself before he got started on his Fairy Tale. Quote"with the Republican convention just two weeks away, we know next to nothing of the plan’s details". . Lame-O. Tell us what programs Romney will cut, and how much it will save. Tell us which loopholes he will close, and how much it will save. Tell us how these savings will compensate for Romney's proposed tax cut and eliminate the deficit. So far Romney's "plans" are all smoke and mirrors with no substance.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #86 August 13, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPxMZ1WdINs This is what Obama and Biden have to look forward to. This is what the USA must avoid: www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/opinion/sunday/romneys-tax-plan-defies-the-rules-of-math.html That Fairy Tale has already been debunked. Where? Certainly not in this thread. By the author himself before he got started on his Fairy Tale. Quote "with the Republican convention just two weeks away, we know next to nothing of the plan’s details". . Lame-O. Tell us what programs Romney will cut, and how much it will save. Tell us which loopholes he will close, and how much it will save. Tell us how these savings will compensate for Romney's proposed tax cut and eliminate the deficit. So far Romney's "plans" are all smoke and mirrors with no substance. Let's put Romneys plan right next to Obama's and compare them. What was that URL to Obama's plan again? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #87 August 13, 2012 Quote Quote www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/opinion/sunday/romneys-tax-plan-defies-the-rules-of-math.html That Fairy Tale has already been debunked. Where? Certainly not in this thread. By the author himself before he got started on his Fairy Tale. Quote "with the Republican convention just two weeks away, we know next to nothing of the plan’s details". But of course he felt he could criticize it anyway. Not knowing all of the the details does not imply that there is not enough known to logically conclude that Romney's claims are not mathematically sound. We will have to elect him to see what's in it. You know, sorta like Obamacare. In the meantime. you will have to rely on left wing loons like Firestone for your marching orders. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #88 August 13, 2012 I fail to see how the lack of budget plan from the Democrats (as pathetic as that may be) invalidates the smoke and mirrors of the Ryan plan. It's not unreasonable for people to ask what these loopholes, etc that will be closed/addressed are. Since that seems to be the linchpin on whether or not the plan is actually financially viable. Ian ps: I plan to end world hunger I will do that by feeding people. Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #89 August 13, 2012 So you don't actually have anything. Thought not.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #90 August 13, 2012 Quote So you don't actually have anything. Thought not. I'm not running for anything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #91 August 13, 2012 Quote I fail to see how the lack of budget plan from the Democrats (as pathetic as that may be) invalidates the smoke and mirrors of the Ryan plan. It's not unreasonable for people to ask what these loopholes, etc that will be closed/addressed are. Since that seems to be the linchpin on whether or not the plan is actually financially viable. Ian ps: I plan to end world hunger I will do that by feeding people. The point is, Obama won't put a plan out there for us to look at. Strange youu would think it's more important for a guy who is runnung for President to present a more detailed budget but are OK with the guy who is President using smoke and mirrors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #92 August 13, 2012 >>That Fairy Tale has already been debunked. >Where? Certainly not in this thread. All the important places. In the minds of Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin etc. What more do you need? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #93 August 13, 2012 QuoteI fail to see how the lack of budget plan from the Democrats (as pathetic as that may be) invalidates the smoke and mirrors of the Ryan plan. You can't work out the bugs of a non existent proposal. Or put more classically - failing to plan is planning to fail. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #94 August 13, 2012 QuoteQuoteI think you and Quade are hoping that the Obama lead holds up, and that none of these events will change that reality. I'd still favor him to win, but it's not by much of a margin. You talking popular or electoral? The second greatly amplifies the first. A 5% popular advantage could be a landslide in electoral. While the polling has closed substantially, with dead heat being within the margin of error, the state by state polling has more states sewn up for Obama or leaning his way. But in the past 2-3 months, the number of uncertain states (and their total ECVs) has increased. In our current state of entrenched voters, I don't think we'll see Reagan like or even Clinton like victory margins in the EC totals. Obama won many close elections in 2008 - I expect him to lose a few of them, so the end result is more likely to resemble 2004. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #95 August 13, 2012 QuoteQuote2008 had a historically high voter turnout and Obama got most of his margin from citizens that tend not to vote. Interesting. Do you have a source for that information? Forgive me if I think it sounds dubious. from wiki: The voter turnout for this election was broadly predicted to be high by American standards,[197][198][199] and a record number of votes were cast.[200] The final tally of total votes counted was 131.3 million, compared to 122.3 million in 2004 (which also boasted the highest record since 1968, the last presidential election before the voting age was lowered to 18). Expressed as a percentage of eligible voters, 131.2 million votes could reflect a turnout as high as 63.0% of eligible voters, which would be the highest since 1960.[201][202] This 63.0% turnout rate is based on an estimated eligible voter population of 208,323,000.[202] Another estimate puts the eligible voter population at 212,720,027, resulting in a turnout rate of 61.7%, which would be the highest turnout rate since 1968.[203] 9M more votes, and the margin in the popular vote was 9.5. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #96 August 13, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote2008 had a historically high voter turnout and Obama got most of his margin from citizens that tend not to vote. Interesting. Do you have a source for that information? Forgive me if I think it sounds dubious. from wiki: The voter turnout for this election was broadly predicted to be high by American standards,[197][198][199] and a record number of votes were cast.[200] The final tally of total votes counted was 131.3 million, compared to 122.3 million in 2004 (which also boasted the highest record since 1968, the last presidential election before the voting age was lowered to 18). Expressed as a percentage of eligible voters, 131.2 million votes could reflect a turnout as high as 63.0% of eligible voters, which would be the highest since 1960.[201][202] This 63.0% turnout rate is based on an estimated eligible voter population of 208,323,000.[202] Another estimate puts the eligible voter population at 212,720,027, resulting in a turnout rate of 61.7%, which would be the highest turnout rate since 1968.[203] 9M more votes, and the margin in the popular vote was 9.5. That doesn't contradict anything in my post: It is not unreasonable to assume that most moderates who voted for Obama in 2008 will also cast a vote this November. Further, it is logical to conclude that one of those moderates voting for Romney effectively subtracts a vote from Obama's tally and adds a vote to Romney's.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #97 August 13, 2012 keep Hoping, mate. If you try hard enough, you may be rewarded. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #98 August 13, 2012 Quote>>That Fairy Tale has already been debunked. >Where? Certainly not in this thread. All the important places. In the minds of Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin etc. What more do you need? Nope, the writer admits it's a fantasy. Try again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #99 August 13, 2012 Quote Quote I fail to see how the lack of budget plan from the Democrats (as pathetic as that may be) invalidates the smoke and mirrors of the Ryan plan. It's not unreasonable for people to ask what these loopholes, etc that will be closed/addressed are. Since that seems to be the linchpin on whether or not the plan is actually financially viable. Ian ps: I plan to end world hunger I will do that by feeding people. The point is, Obama won't put a plan out there for us to look at. Strange youu would think it's more important for a guy who is runnung for President to present a more detailed budget but are OK with the guy who is President using smoke and mirrors. *sigh* I never said it was ok the Dems didn't have a good plan. In fact, I called it pathetic in the very post you responded to. That said it STILL doesn't make the Ryan "plan" any better. It's more like the Ryan "idea/concept". When it comes to details, no-one seems to be delivering the specifics on the HOW. That's the problem. IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #100 August 13, 2012 Quote Quote Quote I fail to see how the lack of budget plan from the Democrats (as pathetic as that may be) invalidates the smoke and mirrors of the Ryan plan. It's not unreasonable for people to ask what these loopholes, etc that will be closed/addressed are. Since that seems to be the linchpin on whether or not the plan is actually financially viable. Ian ps: I plan to end world hunger I will do that by feeding people. The point is, Obama won't put a plan out there for us to look at. Strange youu would think it's more important for a guy who is runnung for President to present a more detailed budget but are OK with the guy who is President using smoke and mirrors. *sigh* I never said it was ok the Dems didn't have a good plan. In fact, I called it pathetic in the very post you responded to. That said it STILL doesn't make the Ryan "plan" any better. It's more like the Ryan "idea/concept". When it comes to details, no-one seems to be delivering the specifics on the HOW. That's the problem. Ian Nobody except left wing parrots have suggested Ryan's budget is going to be implemented. In fact the Romney campaign has said they will come up with their own. In the meantime, at least Romney and Ryan have put something out there for discussion. Unlike the democrats and Obama. But look who gets attacked. Pretty pathetic isn't it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
