Voter purge vs National ID card

[Niki1 1]

The voter purge laws/regulations smack of poll taxes, literacy tests and other requirements to keep minoriteis from voting. Is this a ploy to get the "camals noes in the tent" toward a National ID card? I don't like the voter purge thing but a National ID card might be the solution to a variaty of issues.

What do you think?

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

[quade 3]

I think the "Tea Party" Republicans (modern crazy ones, as opposed to real conservatives) will talk out of both sides of their mouths on the issue. An actual, traditional conservative would vomit at the idea of a National ID. I'm fairly certain you're right though about Tea Party "conservatives" wanting IDs for "others."

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[danornan 64]

You must show a picture ID to get on an airplane, what is so wrong about an ID to vote and possible change the government?

Dano

[quade 3]

I rest my case.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ChangoLanzao 0]

[Monko760 0]

"Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."

While I agree we have major problems, more bureaucracy is hardly the answer IMO.

I fly and stuff, its fun!

[normiss 622]

Change your vote already!


They just don't like your choices.

[billvon 2,400]

>what is so wrong about an ID to vote and possible change the government?

Because a government that does not want to be changed can simply require an ID card that its detractors will have a little more trouble getting. Voila! A powerful government is safe from the electorate.

[danornan 64]

Ironic that this came to me today.....

Dano

[quade 3]

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Ironic that this came to me today.....

Understand that the concept of a voter ID is significantly different than a national ID.

A person might be able to make some sort of argument in favor of a voter ID as being part of the registration process.

There is no argument whatsoever that is valid for a national ID. The legality of a human simply existing should never be contingent on a piece of paper.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kelpdiver 2]

did you review that list?

When's the last time you needed ID to use your visa card? Even when I mark the card with "check ID" it's a rare event when I'm asked to show it. And of course never need to for online ordering (absentee ballot, anyone?)

[danornan 64]

OK - 2/16 are not accurate. Really splitting hairs! What about the other photo ID requirements? Voting not important enough?

Simply, it is in the "crying liberals" best interest to allow anyone to vote because they generally vote for the people offering them, "free ice cream." The person who says that "someone" will have to pay for it, doesn't get their vote!

Being identified as a citizen of the US is not difficult, if you are here legally. Some people are actually proud of that fact.

The chart was an example and as happens so many times on this forum, people nit pick and ignore the main issue.

Dano

[rushmc 18]

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did you review that list?

When's the last time you needed ID to use your visa card? Even when I mark the card with "check ID" it's a rare event when I'm asked to show it. And of course never need to for online ordering (absentee ballot, anyone?)

It happens nearly every time I use my Visa card

As I have purposely written "See ID" on the back where the signature should be.

Lessons the chances of my card being used

Same for my vote

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jcd11235 0]

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Voting not important enough?

This sums up the general idea.

Any ID requirement for voting that doesn't provide free ID's amounts to a poll tax, forbidden by the 24th Amendment of the Constitution. With free ID's, the constitutionality issue is less clear, but seems like a waste of tax dollars.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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In reality everyone needs some type of ID to function as an adult in today's world.

I have a picture ID or three, but I could easily get away without one. I show my voter registration card much more often, and only show it to vote. About the only time I use a picture ID is the rare occasion in which I want some cash back when I'm depositing a check at the bank, but I can easily just use the ATM ten feet away from the human teller, which requires no ID. If I lost my physical driver license, replacing it would be an extremely low priority, at least until the expiration date neared.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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OK - 2/16 are not accurate. Really splitting hairs! What about the other photo ID requirements? Voting not important enough?

Simply, it is in the "crying liberals" best interest to allow anyone to vote because they generally vote for the people offering them, "free ice cream." The person who says that "someone" will have to pay for it, doesn't get their vote!

Being identified as a citizen of the US is not difficult, if you are here legally. Some people are actually proud of that fact.

The chart was an example and as happens so many times on this forum, people nit pick and ignore the main issue.

YOU are ignoring the main issue which is that the cost - in terms of money and disenfrachisement of voters - is not justified by the miniscule number of actual voter impersonation fraud cases. Requiring voter ID doesn't make it impossible for most people to vote but it definitely makes it harder for many citizens to vote.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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Voting not important enough?

This sums up the general idea.

Any ID requirement for voting that doesn't provide free ID's amounts to a poll tax, forbidden by the 24th Amendment of the Constitution. With free ID's, the constitutionality issue is less clear, but seems like a waste of tax dollars.

+1

[kelpdiver 2]

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did you review that list?

When's the last time you needed ID to use your visa card? Even when I mark the card with "check ID" it's a rare event when I'm asked to show it. And of course never need to for online ordering (absentee ballot, anyone?)

It happens nearly every time I use my Visa card

As I have purposely written "See ID" on the back where the signature should be.

Lessons the chances of my card being used

as I wrote, and you cited, this doesn't actually work very well in practice. 20% of the time at best.

[billvon 2,400]

>I'm on the fence about this one. I can see where people argue the constitutionality of
>the requirement but how would you guard against 'voting the cemetery?'

If that's really the problem - why not just check whether the people on the voter rolls (which are fairly well maintained) are dead or not?

[Niki1 1]

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Understand that the concept of a voter ID is significantly different than a national ID.

A person might be able to make some sort of argument in favor of a voter ID as being part of the registration process.

There is no argument whatsoever that is valid for a national ID. The legality of a human simply existing should never be contingent on a piece of paper.

It's not the existance of a person (human) that is "contingent on a piece of paper" but the rights and privlidges of ciitizen that are the crux of the matter, in my mind. A standardized National ID might solve a lot of the problems. I'm also sure that the rule of "unintended consequences" would create another set of problems. If the set of new problems is smaller than the preioius set of problems, then that might be considered progress?

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

[winsor 186]

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The voter purge laws/regulations smack of poll taxes, literacy tests and other requirements to keep minoriteis from voting. Is this a ploy to get the "camel's noes in the tent" toward a National ID card? I don't like the voter purge thing but a National ID card might be the solution to a variaty of issues.

What do you think?

Voter fraud is, historically speaking, a very effective tool in the elective process. Jack Kennedy, for example, lost to Tricky Dick Nixon in 1960, but "rabbit out of the hat" victories in Texas (courtesy of LBJ) and Illinois (courtesy of R.J. Daley) changed the outcome in his favor.

The fact that someone far enough down the food chain that they are unable to provide identification is pretty much guaranteed to vote Democrat may or may not be a real factor. I also doubt that illegal aliens are likely to vote Republican as well, but, again, I am not sure how great are these numbers.

If the rolls of eligible voters are periodically reviewed to remove people who are at least temporarily dead, as well as those who are registered in at least one too many jurisdictions, I can't see the problem with that in and of itself.

If any particular scheme is implemented that serves to disenfranchise one group of citizens or another, that is immoral, unethical, unconstitutional or something. In any event, it is a bad thing.

My limited experience is that it is not simply the rules that matter, it is who is enforcing them. Stalin's observation comes to mind,whereby who votes is of less importance than is who counts the votes.

The most brilliant system in the hands of corrupt people without adult supervision is no better than a fundamentally corrupt system.

It is unfortunate that it takes honor for an honor system to work.


BSBD,

Winsor

[quade 3]

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Understand that the concept of a voter ID is significantly different than a national ID.
A person might be able to make some sort of argument in favor of a voter ID as being part of the registration process.
There is no argument whatsoever that is valid for a national ID. The legality of a human simply existing should never be contingent on a piece of paper.

It's not the existance of a person (human) that is "contingent on a piece of paper" but the rights and privlidges of ciitizen that are the crux of the matter, in my mind. A standardized National ID might solve a lot of the problems. I'm also sure that the rule of "unintended consequences" would create another set of problems. If the set of new problems is smaller than the preioius set of problems, then that might be considered progress?

We're really talking about the same thing.

And without the person having the "national ID" he would have no rights.

An American citizen, no matter what color or religion should be able to walk freely on US soil, coast to coast and border to border, without ever having to worry about having to produce his "papers" in order to prove he's legal just to be free.

In the lists of things a person has to have an ID for, simply existing isn't one of them nor should it ever be.

If you want something that is universally recognized to make your US citizenship known, it already exists; it's called a passport. They make your life easy when traveling on planes and fulfilling the ID checks for applying for jobs. However, nobody should ever be forced to have one and that is the crux of the matter.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[penniless 0]

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did you review that list?

When's the last time you needed ID to use your visa card? Even when I mark the card with "check ID" it's a rare event when I'm asked to show it. And of course never need to for online ordering (absentee ballot, anyone?)

I don't think anyone has looked at the back of my credit card in, maybe, 5 years. Just about every place I go now I swipe the card myself and the clerk never even touches it.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Voter fraud is, historically speaking, a very effective tool in the elective process. Jack Kennedy, for example, lost to Tricky Dick Nixon in 1960, but "rabbit out of the hat" victories in Texas (courtesy of LBJ) and Illinois (courtesy of R.J. Daley) changed the outcome in his favor.

The key word in here is "historically" speaking. 1960 is the only situation I can think of in modern times where the suspicion of fairness is quite reasonable. But that was over 50 years ago, when party machines still ran things. That's pretty much dead. Chicago still tries a bit, CA/San Francisco had it until Willie Brown retired, but we're talking about pre Voter Rights Act of 1965.

It would be extremely difficult to pull off such a theft now, though Diebold is certainly trying to make it achievable.

[kelpdiver 2]

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It's not the existance of a person (human) that is "contingent on a piece of paper" but the rights and privlidges of ciitizen that are the crux of the matter, in my mind. A standardized National ID might solve a lot of the problems. I'm also sure that the rule of "unintended consequences" would create another set of problems. If the set of new problems is smaller than the preioius set of problems, then that might be considered progress?

We've already seen what happens with this in the Soviet Bloc during the Cold War.

no thanks, comrade. Since we are experiencing no actual problems now, what exactly are we trading away for?