Interested in what you find wrong with this...

[sfzombie 3]

it is a fact that "under god" was put into the pledge of allegience in the 50's, no link provided, i remember that from reading several sources through the years. it was during the red scare when everyone wanted to disassociate with the commies, around the same time frame when they put it on money as well...

http://kitswv.com

[davjohns 1]

Yes, I understand 'under God' was an addition. I think Kallend's point is that mandating a pledge that includes the words ' under God ' violates the stated principle of keeping religion out of the equation. For potentially the first time, I agree with Kallend.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

bullshit. if you don't know that the reference to god was inserted into it in the 50's, then go take a civics class.

Jeez. You forgot to call him a motherfucker.
Many American kids learn that factoid in their civics classes. Fewer people who have immigrated to the US as adults (like Kallend) would necessarily be expected to know that.

OK, your turn for a snappy comeback.

[kallend 1,649]

Quote

Quote

bullshit. if you don't know that the reference to god was inserted into it in the 50's, then go take a civics class.

Jeez. You forgot to call him a motherfucker.
Many American kids learn that factoid in their civics classes. Fewer people who have immigrated to the US as adults (like Kallend) would necessarily be expected to know that.

OK, your turn for a snappy comeback.

Actually I know it very well.

I probably know more about US civics than the average US born college student (and I spend my working life surrounded by US born college students).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DanG 1]

Quote

We will end all ethnicity-, race- and non-American nationality-based celebrations.

I'm wondering what celebrations he's alluding to. Some people think MLK Day is a holiday that celebrates blacks. Is that what he's talking about? Maybe Columbus Day celebrating Italians.

Ah, I know. It's got to be Cinco de Mayo. I bet the writer hates that. He probably doesn't mind St. Patrick's Day nearly as much.

For that matter, how would the writer deal with Christmas and Easter? They are not American nationality based celebrations. I'll bet his school would still get those days off.

- Dan G

[davjohns 1]

Valid point on Christmas. Christmas vacation can go out the door as far as I'm concerned. Pretty sure lots of people will still want a winter break, though.

Doesn't everyone pretty well get Easter off? It's a Sunday.

I think you're reaching on Columbus Day. It's celebrating the discovery of North America / the future US.

I think MLK day is alright. He fought for individual rights. The color of his skin didn't make him right or wrong. His philosophy did.

St. P is out.

May 5th is out.

I think the only ones you cited that are actual federal holidays are Christmas and MLK.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[sfzombie 3]

i am not trying to offend anyone, this just happens to be something i feel rather strongly about. i am not a christian, but i am a veteran and come from a long line of veterans. i am very patriotic and feel very strongly that more people in this country should be as well. and that doesn't mean supporting the government, i feel that the whole system needs a drastic overhaul. the op was spot on in my opinion, there was nothing political in the post. allow me to apologize for my rudeness.

http://kitswv.com

[DanG 1]

Quote

Doesn't everyone pretty well get Easter off? It's a Sunday.

Yeah, but a lot of places arrange their "Spring Break" around Easter. That would have to stop.

Quote

I think MLK day is alright. He fought for individual rights. The color of his skin didn't make him right or wrong. His philosophy did.

I agree, I just wonder if the author feels the same way.

Quote

I think the only ones you cited that are actual federal holidays are Christmas and MLK.

Sure, but he's talking about celebrations. Under this guy's rule, you couldn't celebrate an event if it didn't directly relate to American nationality. Sounds a little overly nationalistic to me.

- Dan G

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Ummm...I guess I need to read it again. I didn't see that part. But since you brought it up...I am not a big fan of competitive sports in the public schools. It means that many taxpayers support a few students participating in something that has very little value to education. I can see the team player mentality and such in the sport, but think that can be gained elsewhere with more wide-spread effects for the student population. I have some concerns about injuries, hazing and such. My biggest concern is that it does not contribute to the education that the system was set up for.

Makes me think about Marinus's description in post 3. This is a school for a reeducation camp.

The author talked about letting people earn success, but wiped out most forms of it.

[SkyDekker 1,147]

Quote

Valid point on Christmas.

Ok, so now you have agered that there are about 3 or 4 things wrong with his "speech", how much has to be wrong until the premise is false?

[billvon 2,435]

Some slight changes:
===================
Welcome to your first year of high school. Your teachers and I look forward to working with you over the next four years to help you prepare for your life beyond high school.

As you begin your education here, there are some things you have to know. These are all available in the information you've been given, but I wanted to hit some highlights here.

First, you are here for an education. That means learning to read, write and do math. That means learning about science, health, history and literature. It does not include worshiping your religion, demonstrating your patriotism or supporting your favorite sports team. If you wish to do any of that we will provide a space you can use before and after classes to pray, say pledges or support your teams. You may come as early as you like and leave as late as you like.

Second, we have a physical education program here. We expect you to learn and practice basic exercises you'll use throughout your life to keep you healthy. It does not include football, baseball or lacrosse. The public is paying a lot of money via their taxes to educate you, not to pay for uniforms, fields, stadiums, coaches or rallies. If you wish to participate in teams, we are happy to direct you to local Little League and youth football teams. Our parking lot will also be available after 5pm for students who wish to use this space for sporting events.

Third, we realize that many parents and students have concerns about various things that are taught here. A complete list of topics in our curriculum is available on line. They include sexual health, climate change and evolution. If any student's parents feel uncomfortable with their children learning about those things, we will exempt them from those classes. Then when their peers graduate we will be happy to direct them to places that provide high school equivalency degrees, so they can make up those subjects.

Fourth, we will treat everyone equally, and expect students to treat everyone equally. Discrimination against students of different religions, sexual orientation, races or income levels will not be tolerated. nor will specific religions, orientations or races be promoted over others. Religious holidays will not be observed here. If students need time off for religious observations like Passover, Christmas or Kwanzaa, they will be able to use several days set aside for religious observations. If they need to exceed that limit, again, we will be happy to recommend a place to obtain a high school equivalency degrees.
======================

[davjohns 1]

I have agreed that the word 'holy' is inconsistant and a substitution made; and the Pledge of Allegiance is inconsistant and a substitution made. I agree that a strict adherence to the principles set forth would mean eliminating Christmas vacation from the schedule. Two are explicit and one is implicit. I agree that the example of prohibited language is redundant, but hardly wrong.

So, you think two minor re-wordings, one extraneous part and an extraneous implication rebutt the entire document? Hard to fathom.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[SkyDekker 1,147]

Quote

So, you think two minor re-wordings, one extraneous part and an extraneous implication rebutt the entire document?

No, I think it makes it clear that this was a political piece, which is what rebutts the entire document.

[davjohns 1]

Absorb what is useful. Reject what is useless. Add what is uniquely you. - Jun Fan Lee

If you throw out something in it's entirety because you find part(s) of it objectionable, you will find very little in this world acceptable. - David W. Johnson (me )

But I do value your input.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Third, we realize that many parents and students have concerns about various things that are taught here. A complete list of topics in our curriculum is available on line. They include sexual health, climate change and evolution. If any student's parents feel uncomfortable with their children learning about those things, we will exempt them from those classes. Then when their peers graduate we will be happy to direct them to places that provide high school equivalency degrees, so they can make up those subjects.

great rewrite BV - except for that one. I'll take a pass at it.


Third, we realize that many parents and students have concerns about various things that are taught here. A complete list of topics in our curriculum is available on line. A subset includes topics like sexual health and climate change (for example) that are offered but are not required for graduation. If any student's parents feel a need to have their children learn these topics, we will make them available for a fee in early morning or evening supplemental classes - but they will not be funded by the parents of those that decline these classes and will not be allowed to substitute the core requirements for graduation.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mnealtx 0]

Well said.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 2,435]

>A complete list of topics in our curriculum is available on line. A subset includes topics
>like sexual health and climate change (for example) that are offered but are not
>required for graduation.

Would you be OK with not requiring math for graduation, because a parent felt that their child would be stigmatized because they are not good at math? (and/or other parents did not believe in teaching math)

And why did you not include evolution in your list?

[Skyrad 0]

Generally I have no problem with much of it, though it does raise some interesting questions.

'The only national identity this school will care about is American' Easy to say but how does one define American national identity? What is it?

'this school will be guided by America's values.' Again, what are American values? Who gets to decide what American values are and which ones get included and excluded. What makes those values 'American' and how are they distinct from those of other nations?

'we will end all self-esteem programs.... Seriously? You have self esteem programs in school in the USA?

'No more time will be devoted to scaring you about smoking and caffeine, or terrifying you about sexual harassment or global warming. No more semesters will be devoted to condom wearing and teaching you to regard sexual relations as only or primarily a health issue. '
As the most obese nation on earth and one which is moving towards socialised healthcare it is in the best interests of the American people for their young to be educated on matters of health so I don't think removing health education from schools is a smart idea.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

>A complete list of topics in our curriculum is available on line. A subset includes topics
>like sexual health and climate change (for example) that are offered but are not
>required for graduation.

Would you be OK with not requiring math for graduation, because a parent felt that their child would be stigmatized because they are not good at math? (and/or other parents did not believe in teaching math)

And why did you not include evolution in your list?

why do you think anyone not taking sexual health or climate change doesn't get a diploma?

I'd leave evolution in class, and the controversial topic I'd offer as an evening class would be intelligent design - right along side with climate change etc.




short answer - your wording pretty much says - take all these classes or, screw you, you don't get a diploma. (if you can't force these topics on the kiddies, you apparently want to make it a real pain for them to be bypassed)

mine says - here's controversial topics, you can choose to take these if you like but we won't force them on you or make you pay for them if you don't take them


Choice vs forcing your viewpoints on others



If we allowed vouchers and, thus, enabled public education options as a result, then this whole thing would be a moot point - parents could choose schools that matched their wishes instead of pissy discussions about required specific classes the NEA wishes for indoctrination.....

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Skyrad 0]

'Kwanzaa' how is this Micky Mouse makieuppy holiday a religious celebration???

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[billvon 2,435]

>why do you think anyone not taking sexual health or climate change doesn't get a
>diploma?

For the same reason that someone not taking evolution (or math) doesn't get a diploma. It's an important part of the curriculum.

>short answer - your wording pretty much says - take all these classes or, screw you,
>you don't get a diploma.

And your wording seems to be "don't want to study evolution? Screw you, you can't graduate." All the schools I've been to have said similar things. Heck, I couldn't graduate from MIT without fulfilling phys ed and liberal arts requirements. What do they have to do with a technical degree? Nothing, but overall they were a good thing (IMO.)

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

>And your wording seems to be "don't want to study evolution? Screw you, you can't graduate."

I disagree - yours says directly - "you want to skip these? fine, you don't graduate - here's a list of community colleges"

Mine says "you want to take these others? we'll try to offer them as supplemental education"


I really thought your tangent would be to equate the supplemental education with your directive to go to a community college. That would have been more clever.


big difference in presentation - I took evolution off the list because it's just not in the same boat as climate change, or gender studies, etc for what I'm assuming is a high school based curriculum discussion. But put it back in if you think the evolution vs intelligent design debate is even a serious one. Again, the issue is there is not school choice for families with little resources. Fix that and all this goes away.


yes, I think math is important. and the 'required' curriculum is always a bit subjective. But that subjective list should be for teaching people how to learn, not for indoctrination of political viewpoints or social brainwashing.

I simply would like the power to rest with the parents, not the board or whichever political party is in charge at the time. If they can't choose the best school for their kids, then they need more power over the curriculum of the public offering without the pressure of having to allow the kiddies to substitute math and reading for tolerance and environmentalism classes.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,435]

>yes, I think math is important. and the 'required' curriculum is always a bit subjective.

Agreed, to some degree.

>But that subjective list should be for teaching people how to learn, not for
>indoctrination of political viewpoints or social brainwashing.

Also agreed. But that subjective list should be chosen (at least at the high school level) to prepare students to be able to operate in the real world. Which is why K-12 should have fairly standardized curricula and not be subject to transient popular passions. Even if one of those popular passions is "I really hate that liberal global warming shit" (or "evolution is the devil's catechism" or whatever.) Teach the science and avoid the politics and the brainwashing.

(I'm aware that there are people out there who consider teaching evolution to be "brainwashing." The children of those people are better served by teaching them a more objective, rather than a subjective, view of the world IMO. And yes that means deciding that schools know better than parents what is best for their children, at least in matters of public school curriculum development.)

>I simply would like the power to rest with the parents, not the board or whichever
>political party is in charge at the time.

I don't think that really works. A public education should prepare people for life in the real world, and that includes math, biology, health, writing, reading etc. If a parent does not want their child to learn those things, and wants to design a more custom curriculum (i.e. "no math because that crushes his self esteem" or whatever) I am fine with home schooling, private school etc but at that point it's not really appropriate to try to implement that in a public school.

>without the pressure of having to allow the kiddies to substitute math and reading for
>tolerance and environmentalism classes.

No one in this thread is suggesting "tolerance and environmentalism" classes. I AM suggesting that no one gets to replace math, reading, science etc with _anything_.

[jakee 1,259]

Quote

I have agreed that the word 'holy' is inconsistant and a substitution made;

Kinda like the bit where he tells them how to dress to go to church?

Quote

So, you think two minor re-wordings, one extraneous part and an extraneous implication rebutt the entire document?

No, but it does give a few clues as to how his mission statement would be policed.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

I get your points.

I just think the wishes of the parents are better than the rest of us deciding for them.

In clear cases of abuse, then that goes out the window of course.

So, apparently the "line" is somewhere between: Interfere if the parent is beating his kids with bricks and knives ................and.............it's not really our business if the parent wants to expose the kids to various philosphies about helping ones neighbors when times are tough


I line up quite a bit on the physically substantial side before I'd interfere with a parent and their child - some people want to interfere if the parent even thinks different than them.



Again, if schooling was private and free market, then this is moot. It's up to the parents to prepare the kids for the real world. Not a bunch of strangers that think they are smarter than everyone else, even if they don't raise kids themselves....

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants