Florida Teen Shot

[billvon 2,456]

>This is more a case for Colombo.

Just one more thing if you don't mind . . .

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

it's good if he is eventually found guilty. It's bad if he's found not guilty and it's obvious in hindsight that it would be the result (either due to the evidence of the glaring lack thereof) because a trial will cost him substantially, regardless of the outcome.

But not cost him as much as the kid he shot dead.

If he were found clearly innocent, or actually is, then its the kid's own actions that cost him dearly. He did demonstrate problems with understanding that actions can have negative consequences.

I doubt we'll be able to get the sort of evidence that would allow us to KNOW which way this swings. We're either leaping to our personal biases or remembering how our system of justice operates. Reminds of me of the Floyd Landis case...there were a lot of reasons to pull for the guy until he revealed what a rat fuck he truly was.

[Southern_Man 0]

Quote

If he were found clearly innocent, or actually is, then its the kid's own actions that cost him dearly. He did demonstrate problems with understanding that actions can have negative consequences.

I doubt we'll be able to get the sort of evidence that would allow us to KNOW which way this swings. We're either leaping to our personal biases or remembering how our system of justice operates. Reminds of me of the Floyd Landis case...there were a lot of reasons to pull for the guy until he revealed what a rat fuck he truly was.

Unfortunately our justice system has no mechanism and is not designed to find somebody clearly innocent

I doubt we will have enough clear, unambiguous evidence, that is a shame.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[kallend 1,662]

Quote

Quote

>MSNBC is reporting that criminal charges will be announced at 3pm est.

It would be good to have a court decide his guilt or innocence based on the best evidence both sides can collect. I know that will make a lot of Internet Kojacks unhappy, but c'est la vie.

it's good if he is eventually found guilty. It's bad if he's found not guilty and it's obvious in hindsight that it would be the result (either due to the evidence of the glaring lack thereof) because a trial will cost him substantially, regardless of the outcome.

Well, we don't know at this point what the admissible evidence will be, and how an impartial jury (if such can ever be found now) will weigh it. Rodney King and OJ come to mind as trials where the outcomes were going to (and did) upset a sizable number of people, whichever way they went.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wlsc 0]

Quote

>This is more a case for Colombo.

Just one more thing if you don't mind . . .

Scratches head...

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Unfortunately our justice system has no mechanism and is not designed to find somebody clearly innocent

The system? Surely. Video evidence, or eye witness accounting from Jesus Christ would be an example. DNA evidence is another. However, unless the DA is acting badly (which certainly has happened), we shouldn't have a charge go to trial where there is evidence that clearly established innocence.

Very interested to see what the charge will be. Involuntary manslaughter is common in fight situations. And will the DA give us some insight into why she feels there is a case (ie, possible new evidence), or just save that for the trial.

[livendive 8]

Quote

I'm not at this point taking either side. In addition to the cited eye witnesses, I don't necessarily believe M's girlfriend's version of the phone conversation, and give little credibility to the mortician.

IMO there are just too many holes in the information available to us to draw any conclusions. Let's hope the independent investigators come up with something useful.

I don't know whether Zimmerman is guilty of a crime, and I'm not sure that a jury will find correctly either way. Based on what we've heard in the media (some of which is suspect), Zimmerman seems to have provoked the fight that he ended with deadly force. I think self-defense becomes questionable when one brings the attack on themself, so I do believe there's enough here to ask a jury to decide on at least manslaughter. I also believe the jury will stand a better chance of getting it right (one way or the other) than the local authorities.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rushmc 18]

He has now been charged and they are looking to arrest him

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wlsc 0]

...BREAKING: Official tells AP: Trayvon Martin's killer to be charged with 2nd-degree murder; is in custody...

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

...BREAKING: Official tells AP: Trayvon Martin's killer to be charged with 2nd-degree murder; is in custody...

pretty surprised to see the charge of 2nd degree. If that's not politically driven (jury can consider lesser charges) then she must have seen evidence that spoke to intent.

[livendive 8]

Quote

Quote

...BREAKING: Official tells AP: Trayvon Martin's killer to be charged with 2nd-degree murder; is in custody...

pretty surprised to see the charge of 2nd degree. If that's not politically driven (jury can consider lesser charges) then she must have seen evidence that spoke to intent.

Not being a Floridian, I don't know how their definitions work, but the news article I read said that 2nd degree is common when there's a fight that results in death, but no premeditated intent to kill. Sounds a lot like manslaughter here.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Not being a Floridian, I don't know how their definitions work, but the news article I read said that 2nd degree is common when there's a fight that results in death, but no premeditated intent to kill. Sounds a lot like manslaughter here.

The sentencing guidelines differentiate it from manslaughter. Begging the question then, what would qualify as manslaughter?

"Second-degree murder is typically brought in cases when there is a fight or other confrontation that results in death but does not involve a premeditated plan to kill. It carries a mandatory minimum of 25 years behind bars when a gun is used."

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2012/04/11/national/a010825D07.DTL#ixzz1rmFF21y3

[muff528 3]

Quote

...BREAKING: Official tells AP: Trayvon Martin's killer to be charged with 2nd-degree murder; is in custody...

I really hope now that justice will prevail. Not "justice for Trayvon" or "justice for Zimmerman" ....but Justice based on facts and the principle that Zimmerman is presumed to be innocent and must be proven guilty. If, after a fair trial, he really is found to be guilty of the charges brought against him then, of course, he should do the time.

AG Holder has alluded to the possibility of Federal charges being brought for violations of civil rights. I somehow doubt that he is referring to the egregious pronouncements from those who have sworn to protect and defend the Constitution and who really are in a position to violate a citizen's civil rights. True justice would have them all impeached and prosecuted.

I still have little faith that the prosecution of Z will be grounded in "fairness" in any way. He will likely be thrown into the volcano to appease the monster that has been created by elements of the media, spiritual leaders, various "community advocacy" groups, and others who are using this event to make political hay. I have even less faith that those who condemned Z with their decrees, spewages and theatrical buffoonery will ever be held to account by anyone ...even/especially the people in their districts whom they "represent".

I doubt that any jury would dare declare Zimmerman's "innocence" in the face of certain retribution by some vigilante nutjob who has been stirred into a fanatic frenzy and who would believe that their actions would be validated by none less than multiple national "civic" leaders and members of the US Congress.

[billvon 2,456]

>pretty surprised to see the charge of 2nd degree.

That will likely work to Zimmerman's favor - it will be a lot harder to prove than manslaughter. And they can't go back later to change the charge.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

>pretty surprised to see the charge of 2nd degree.

That will likely work to Zimmerman's favor - it will be a lot harder to prove than manslaughter. And they can't go back later to change the charge.

In a lot of states the prosecution can use "lesser included offenses" where a jury finding the defendant innocent of the greater crime then consider the lesser crime(s) lacking the aggravating factors of the greater crime. The prosecutors start with the greatest offense they have probable cause for and work down from there.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Lesser+Included+Offense

When I got jury duty we found the defendant guilty of one felony, innocent of two more, but guilty of lesser included misdemeanor offenses for the later crimes.

In Florida manslaughter, third degree (felony) murder, culpable negligence, aggravated battery, aggravated assault, battery, and assault are all possible lesser included offenses for second degree murder.

There are rules concerning when juries must be instructed about lesser included offenses and when they may be told; perhaps someone more familiar with or interested in Florida law can look it up.

The text of Zimmerman's information may shed light on this too.

[toolbox 0]

***
He could have just stayed in his truck

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I doubt that any jury would dare declare Zimmerman's "innocence" in the face of certain retribution by some vigilante nutjob who has been stirred into a fanatic frenzy and who would believe that their actions would be validated by none less than multiple national "civic" leaders and members of the US Congress.

The jury went against public sentiment for OJ and the cops in the Rodney King trials. Particularly in the case of a murder charge, I think the 12 will need to see solid evidence to convict. Wlsc might argue that if the races were reversed, there is a long history of easy convictions against black defendants, but that isn't the case here.

[billvon 2,456]

>Since when is it ok to punch someone in the nose and knock them to the
>ground and sit on their chest because they are out of their vehicle
>observing you?

Per Florida law, if you think they threaten your life or may seriously harm you. Does a guy with a gun who's coming after you count? Sounds like a jury will decide.

[tkhayes 142]

yes, and late at night, if you were on a cell phone, got out of your truck, approaching me and were 'scary-looking', I might take the opportunity to 'defend myself' by shooting your ass.....

Apparently you think that is a reasonable response....

Zimmerman is getting his trial. As he should. Anything else prior to the verdict is pretty much unnecessary.

[wlsc 0]

..."Let me emphasize that we do not prosecute by public pressure or by petition," said Corey of Zimmerman's arrest, which has received enormous public and media attention over the last several weeks. "We prosecute based on the facts of any given case as well as the laws of the state of Florida."

Martin's parents spoke after the announcement and his mother, Sybrina Fulton said, "We simply wanted an arrest; we wanted nothing more, nothing less. We just wanted an arrest, and we got it and I say thank you, thank you Lord, thank you Jesus."...

[RonD1120 58]

Quote

..."Let me emphasize that we do not prosecute by public pressure or by petition," said Corey of Zimmerman's arrest, which has received enormous public and media attention over the last several weeks. "We prosecute based on the facts of any given case as well as the laws of the state of Florida."

Martin's parents spoke after the announcement and his mother, Sybrina Fulton said, "We simply wanted an arrest; we wanted nothing more, nothing less. We just wanted an arrest, and we got it and I say thank you, thank you Lord, thank you Jesus."...

Yes, I saw that. Maybe civility and intelligent judicial wisdom will now begin to manifest. I certainly hope so.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[rushmc 18]

Quote

..."Let me emphasize that we do not prosecute by public pressure or by petition," said Corey of Zimmerman's arrest, which has received enormous public and media attention over the last several weeks. "We prosecute based on the facts of any given case as well as the laws of the state of Florida."

Martin's parents spoke after the announcement and his mother, Sybrina Fulton said, "We simply wanted an arrest; we wanted nothing more, nothing less. We just wanted an arrest, and we got it and I say thank you, thank you Lord, thank you Jesus."...

She also said that she was seeking justice for, Trayvon and his family

Sounds like she had her mind made up cause, in the end, Zimmerman may have been victim who just responded in self defense

What about justice for Zimmerman?


The jury is supposed to decide

Not her

STW, I heard a couple of lawyers talking about this last night as I was hauling stuff for my brother in law

These lawyers say the tape of her saying this will most likely come out before and during court proceedings

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[devildog 0]

Quote

Quote

..."Let me emphasize that we do not prosecute by public pressure or by petition," said Corey of Zimmerman's arrest, which has received enormous public and media attention over the last several weeks. "We prosecute based on the facts of any given case as well as the laws of the state of Florida."

Martin's parents spoke after the announcement and his mother, Sybrina Fulton said, "We simply wanted an arrest; we wanted nothing more, nothing less. We just wanted an arrest, and we got it and I say thank you, thank you Lord, thank you Jesus."...

She also said that she was seeking justice for, Trayvon and his family

Sounds like she had her mind made up cause, in the end, Zimmerman may have been victim who just responded in self defense

What about justice for Zimmerman?


The jury is supposed to decide

Not her

STW, I heard a couple of lawyers talking about this last night as I was hauling stuff for my brother in law

These lawyers say the tape of her saying this will most likely come out before and during court proceedings

SYG can still apply when he gets up in front of the judge before trial. We'll see then if the lawyers can convince the judge to toss the case.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Quote

Quote

..."Let me emphasize that we do not prosecute by public pressure or by petition," said Corey of Zimmerman's arrest, which has received enormous public and media attention over the last several weeks. "We prosecute based on the facts of any given case as well as the laws of the state of Florida."

Martin's parents spoke after the announcement and his mother, Sybrina Fulton said, "We simply wanted an arrest; we wanted nothing more, nothing less. We just wanted an arrest, and we got it and I say thank you, thank you Lord, thank you Jesus."...

She also said that she was seeking justice for, Trayvon and his family

Sounds like she had her mind made up cause, in the end, Zimmerman may have been victim who just responded in self defense

What about justice for Zimmerman?


The jury is supposed to decide

Not her

STW, I heard a couple of lawyers talking about this last night as I was hauling stuff for my brother in law

These lawyers say the tape of her saying this will most likely come out before and during court proceedings

SYG can still apply when he gets up in front of the judge before trial. We'll see then if the lawyers can convince the judge to toss the case.

I am a bit surprised that Zimmermans lawyers will try and use this law

It seems SYG has little if anything to do with it

If Zimmermans story is true, then it is simple self defense

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Meso 38]

There was no self-defense, no matter what one may say went down. Whether he hit Zimmerman or not is irrelevant.

I highly suspect that if you're unarmed walking down a road and some guy starts following you with a gun, you will either A) Try to run, or B) Let him get close enough and then look to defend yourself using force.

The option of A and B differs between people, but when someone has a gun, running is likely to be less effective if you're already within range. If you think they're wanting to rob you and you think you can disarm them, many people would opt for option B.


I find it slightly humorous how the people who are trying to argue self-defense don't seem to think that it's self-defense when someone hits an armed person when they approach you in a street at night. I can assure you that in that situation most will be thinking the armed stranger approaching you is putting you under threat.