Florida Teen Shot

[FreeFallFiend 0]

devildog

***Isn't surprising the defense with new lesser charges at 7am on summation day, charges the prosecution has no doubt been preparing for a while now, grounds for a mistrial? How in the world could that be allowed?

Lesser charges are often included at the end in FL. Its just the way it works down here. The defense probably was prepping for it from day 1.

They were prepping for the lesser charge of manslaughter because that's what they were told to expect the entire time and was confirmed again last night. At 730AM this morning the prosecution gave notice they were going to include a lesser charge of 3rd degree murder hinging on child abuse. They then had pages and pages of very detailed case law precedent. The defense was enraged (and rightfully so) because it was obvious that the state had been planning to make this move for quite some time and didnt properly let the defense know. This is a trick because it doesnt allow the defense time to properly defend itself.

The bottom line is the state knows they dont stand a chance at convicting GZ for what he was charged and being tried with so they are scrambling like hell now to include lesser charges and ridiculous jury instructions in a hail mary catch all play.

Fiend

I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark. - Thomas Hobbes.

[normiss 622]

Except for child abuse charges, I'm sure you're correct.
It just doesn't seem right to stack charges based on the way the trial plays out. Feels unconstitutional to me.

I still hope the jury is smart enough to see the politics here and find his not guilty no matter the charges.

I think we all deserve the right to defend ourselves.

[devildog 0]

FreeFallFiend

I really dont know what to say after watching this mornings proceedings. As the defense is claiming the state was VERY obviously lying and indeed pulling a "trick" with what they did this morning. It didnt get any better as the attorneys for both sides began snidely insulting each other in front of everyone.

This really worries me about the legal system. These sneaky moves are something I would expect of a defense, not a state prosecuting legal team.

Didnt get to watch any of it yet. What did the defense say specifically that they were lying about?

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[wayneflorida 0]

And at the very end of the lesser charges will be littering. Not properly disposing of the shell casing.

I also find it amusing that I've seen Angela Correy in the courtroom a lot. The one pulling the judges strings??

[normiss 622]

Her and all of her necks and chins have been there the whole trial.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

devildog

***Isn't surprising the defense with new lesser charges at 7am on summation day, charges the prosecution has no doubt been preparing for a while now, grounds for a mistrial? How in the world could that be allowed?

Lesser charges are often included at the end in FL. Its just the way it works down here. The defense probably was prepping for it from day 1.I believe that's the way it works in every state. If you're charged with 1st degree murder, the jury could return a verdict of not guilty, but guilty of 2nd degree, manslaughter, or even aggravated assault. The "abuse of a child" I haven't heard of before.

Think of it this way: if lesser charges are not included , then if Zimmerman is acquitted of 2nd degree murder he could be re-tried for manslaughter or assault without violating double jeopardy, since he would not have faced those charges already. Do any of you really want the state to get another kick at the can, where they could clean up some of their witnesses before putting them back on the stand?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[devildog 0]

GeorgiaDon

******Isn't surprising the defense with new lesser charges at 7am on summation day, charges the prosecution has no doubt been preparing for a while now, grounds for a mistrial? How in the world could that be allowed?

Lesser charges are often included at the end in FL. Its just the way it works down here. The defense probably was prepping for it from day 1.I believe that's the way it works in every state. If you're charged with 1st degree murder, the jury could return a verdict of not guilty, but guilty of 2nd degree, manslaughter, or even aggravated assault. The "abuse of a child" I haven't heard of before.

Think of it this way: if lesser charges are not included , then if Zimmerman is acquitted of 2nd degree murder he could be re-tried for manslaughter or assault without violating double jeopardy, since he would not have faced those charges already. Do any of you really want the state to get another kick at the can, where they could clean up some of their witnesses before putting them back on the stand?

Don

I don't think DJ works that way, especially since the defense was staying we want an all or nothing judgment on 2nd degree murder.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[skypuppy 1]

GeorgiaDon

******Isn't surprising the defense with new lesser charges at 7am on summation day, charges the prosecution has no doubt been preparing for a while now, grounds for a mistrial? How in the world could that be allowed?

Lesser charges are often included at the end in FL. Its just the way it works down here. The defense probably was prepping for it from day 1.I believe that's the way it works in every state. If you're charged with 1st degree murder, the jury could return a verdict of not guilty, but guilty of 2nd degree, manslaughter, or even aggravated assault. The "abuse of a child" I haven't heard of before.

Think of it this way: if lesser charges are not included , then if Zimmerman is acquitted of 2nd degree murder he could be re-tried for manslaughter or assault without violating double jeopardy, since he would not have faced those charges already. Do any of you really want the state to get another kick at the can, where they could clean up some of their witnesses before putting them back on the stand?

Don

Considering what happened in LA when the cops were acquitted and then the feds charged them again anyway, I guess it really doesn't matter. Obummer and Holder will get their man anyway they can...

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[FreeFallFiend 0]

devildog

***I really dont know what to say after watching this mornings proceedings. As the defense is claiming the state was VERY obviously lying and indeed pulling a "trick" with what they did this morning. It didnt get any better as the attorneys for both sides began snidely insulting each other in front of everyone.

This really worries me about the legal system. These sneaky moves are something I would expect of a defense, not a state prosecuting legal team.

Didnt get to watch any of it yet. What did the defense say specifically that they were lying about?

Here is a link to a slightly edited version of what happened this morning:

http://landing.newsinc.com/shared/video.html?freewheel=90022&sitesection=dash&VID=24941408

Basically West is claiming that in hindsight its obvious now the state had intended to do this the entire time. It's not only unethical but in my opinion guilty of lying by omission since this wasnt presented to the defense when the state decided they were going to pursue it. No one believes that the state decided to pursue this at 7:30AM this morning because of the amount of research and prep that went into obtaining all the relevant case law.

It's irrelevant now as the judge says she wont allow it. I didnt see that particular ruling though so I dont know if it was thrown out because she doesnt agree, because of the way it was introduced, or both.

Fiend

I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark. - Thomas Hobbes.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Quote

...especially since the defense was staying we want an all or nothing judgment on 2nd degree murder.

And what else would you expect the defense to "stay"?

Quote

I don't think DJ works that way...

I'm sure we'll hear from our resident lawyers and get the real scoop. However I'm quite sure that manslaughter is a lesser included offense under murder.

From the Wikipedia article:
"In criminal jury trials, the court is permitted (but not required) to instruct jurors that they can find the defendant guilty of the most serious crime charged, or of a lesser included offense of that crime (in English law, this is termed an alternative verdict).

In murder cases, however, where a convicted defendant may face capital punishment, the United States Supreme Court has held that the court must instruct the jury that they may find the defendant guilty of a lesser included offense such as voluntary manslaughter.[1] The reasoning for this ruling is that jurors, given the options of convicting a less culpable killer or letting him go free, might opt to convict of a more serious crime than the facts warrant. Therefore, they must have at least one option that falls in between these extremes.

In the case in which the jury has the option of convicting a defendant accused of a violation of law where there is a lesser included offense, if the jury acquits the defendant of the more serious offense but is otherwise unable to reach a verdict (i.e., is hung) on the lesser included offense, the defendant may be retried if the prosecutor chooses, but only for the lesser included offense. If the jury finds the defendant not guilty of the lesser included offense, there would be no need to make a determination on the more serious offense, as acquittal of a lesser included offense automatically constitutes acquittal of the more serious offense."

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Channman 2]

FreeFallFiend

******Isn't surprising the defense with new lesser charges at 7am on summation day, charges the prosecution has no doubt been preparing for a while now, grounds for a mistrial? How in the world could that be allowed?

Lesser charges are often included at the end in FL. Its just the way it works down here. The defense probably was prepping for it from day 1.

They were prepping for the lesser charge of manslaughter because that's what they were told to expect the entire time and was confirmed again last night. At 730AM this morning the prosecution gave notice they were going to include a lesser charge of 3rd degree murder hinging on child abuse. They then had pages and pages of very detailed case law precedent. The defense was enraged (and rightfully so) because it was obvious that the state had been planning to make this move for quite some time and didnt properly let the defense know. This is a trick because it doesnt allow the defense time to properly defend itself.

The bottom line is the state knows they dont stand a chance at convicting GZ for what he was charged and being tried with so they are scrambling like hell now to include lesser charges and ridiculous jury instructions in a hail mary catch all play.

Well, I think this proves the whole case is Political...and with the DOJ sending in a team of Community Relations Service (CRS) personnel to train and organize protestors throughout Florida against Zimmerman and demand procecution gives us a glimps in how Zimmerman is being railroaded. There is an active attempt to get a conviction no matter the evidence, and these latest charges is just that.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

It just doesn't seem right to stack charges based on the way the trial plays out. Feels unconstitutional to me.

When my house was broken into at gunpoint a few years back, they also hit the perp with kidnapping since they used a firearm to force someone to do something against their will (in this case jamming our house sitter in the closet).

I don't think it's uncommon to hit them with as much as you can.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[ryoder 1,397]

FreeFallFiend

It's irrelevant now as the judge says she wont allow it. I didnt see that particular ruling though so I dont know if it was thrown out because she doesnt agree, because of the way it was introduced, or both.

As I understand it, they are attempting to say a child was killed while a perp was committing a felony. i.e. Zimmerman would have had to be committing some *other* felony, during which a child also happened to get killed. And the judge is saying there is no evidence to support this scenario.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[DanG 1]

Quote

...and with the DOJ sending in a team of Community Relations Service (CRS) personnel to train and organize protestors throughout Florida against Zimmerman and demand procecution gives us a glimps in how Zimmerman is being railroaded. There is an active attempt to get a conviction no matter the evidence, and these latest charges is just that.

And apparently there is a current politically driven thrust to get the CRS bullshit into the discussion, again with no thought about the actual evidence.

- Dan G

[FreeFallFiend 0]

The state is making their closing arguments now. It's obvious already that they are pushing for the jury to convict on manslaughter.

Fiend

I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark. - Thomas Hobbes.

[normiss 622]

Good thing closing arguments doesn't mean as much to juries as the attorneys would like.

[devildog 0]

Did the defense make their closing yet?

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[Rick 67]

question are the attorneys limited on the length of their closing arguments??

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[linebckr83 3]

GeorgiaDon

Do any of you really want the state to get another kick at the can, where they could clean up some of their witnesses before putting them back on the stand?

Don

After watching this whole thing, I don't think cleaning up witnesses would do the job. There's an extreme lack of evidence against Zimmerman whether the witnesses were better or not.

Taken from the comments section, the prosecution closing statement should have been: "We the prosecution assume that we can convict without providing any actual evidence."

Half an hour into the closing argument, it still pure speculation. Possible speculation, but speculation all the same.

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[normiss 622]

About 3 hours each.
State will use 2 now, then the defense, then the state get another shot.


"I have a dream" was just used in the state's close.

[linebckr83 3]

devildog

Did the defense make their closing yet?

That will be tomorrow morning. O'Mara will be giving it. Then the prosecution will give a sort of rebuttal closing argument.

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[Rick 67]

normiss

About 3 hours each.
State will use 2 now, then the defense, then the state get another shot.


"I have a dream" was just used in the state's close.

wtf they are actually trying to use Rachel jeantel's testimony to sway the jury. She came of as a moron

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[FreeFallFiend 0]

DanG

Quote

...and with the DOJ sending in a team of Community Relations Service (CRS) personnel to train and organize protestors throughout Florida against Zimmerman and demand procecution gives us a glimps in how Zimmerman is being railroaded. There is an active attempt to get a conviction no matter the evidence, and these latest charges is just that.

And apparently there is a current politically driven thrust to get the CRS bullshit into the discussion, again with no thought about the actual evidence.

Evidence such as official documents from the Justice Department?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2359517/Documents-Little-known-Justice-Department-unit-provided-support-protest-deployment-Florida-initial-Trayvon-Martin-unrest.html

Fiend

I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark. - Thomas Hobbes.

[skypuppy 1]

ianmdrennan

Quote

It just doesn't seem right to stack charges based on the way the trial plays out. Feels unconstitutional to me.

When my house was broken into at gunpoint a few years back, they also hit the perp with kidnapping since they used a firearm to force someone to do something against their will (in this case jamming our house sitter in the closet).

I don't think it's uncommon to hit them with as much as you can.

Ian

Yes, but I doubt they waited until the end of the trial to throw in that charge. Usually you hit them with everything you have in order to plea some of it away.

Here, like in LA, even if Z is acquitted (as I think he should be) the feds are likely to jump in and charge him with something else...

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[normiss 622]

They did clearly wait until the last minute.