Is there a connection between Islam, Judaism and Christianity

[wolfriverjoe 1,346]

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Joe, when you describe yourself as spiritual, what exactly do you mean?

That's a complex, ever changing and very much uncertain thing.

I'm searching for a meaning and greater purpose, fully aware that there may not be one.

I mostly believe in a mono-theistic God. One who has an overall plan, but because we humans have free will, that plan may be thwarted in the short run. If you've read Asimov's Foundation trilogy, a comparison could be made to the Second Foundation, the keepers of the Seldon Plan.

I do my best to come to an understanding of his (her, it's whatever) will for me to fulfill this plan. Because the God I believe in is a God of love, his will doesn't involve killing, hurting, hating, spitting, throwing rocks or any of the other hurtful things the "fundie nutters" do in the name of their God.

I believe these things because of a variety of small miracles I have experienced. The restaraunt scene at the end of Pulp Fiction has one of the best descriptions of a miracle I have come across. Skip to about 1:30 if you don't want to hear about how pigs are filthy animals.
The experiences I have were subjective, personal and certainly may have been misinterpereted. Others may call them "freak occurrences" and that's up to them, I won't argue.
(from the scene)"What is significant is that I felt the touch of God."

There are some very valid sociological reasons that we as a species have "Gods". No successful society I know of in all of history hasn't had them (I could be wrong). It's ingrained in us and has probably evolved to the point that our brains are hardwired to believe in this sort of thing. That doesn't mean that it has to be true.

So, despite my experiences and beliefs, God may or may not exist. And, from my spiritual point of view, that doesn't matter. Really, it doesn't.

If God does exist, them I am doing my best to do his will. Which is basically helping my fellow man, trying to make the world a better place for all to live in, and at least trying to not make it worse. I am of course not completely perfect in this.

If God doesn't exist, then I have set myself an unreachable goal of perfection. Trying to help my fellow man, trying to make the world a better place for all to live and trying to not make it worse.

Meditation and prayer play a part. And again, if God exists or not, they help me quiet my mind, give me focus and help me cope with the trials and tribulations of day to day life.

So regardless of God's existence, my beliefs help me be a better person.

And beowulf wrote:

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Bikerbabe,
You seem to be saying that since humans have an irrational emotional side that spirtualism is real.
That doesn't make any sense. Just because humans are often emotiona and irrational doesn't mean their irrational and emotional beliefs are real.
Faith is an irrational and emotional belief in something that is often not based on any evidence at all.
There is no logical reason to believe there is any god or that spirtualism is real. Just because people believe in it doesn't mean it exists.

I really don't see how any logically thinking person can reconcile the belief in the supernatural. Whether that be a belief in god or just spiritualism either way it's an emotional belief not based in reality.

There's a variety of evidence to believe in God. I've experienced it. It isn't proof, but it suggests to me that God exists. I fully understand that it may be my own desire to believe warping my understanding.

Spiritualism is a way of life, a belief system. It exists. Whether or not the bases of the beliefs exist is a different question. And as I said above, whether or not God exists doesn't affect my spirituality. If not, it then becomes a placebo, but since the end result is me being a better person, and the world being a (very very little bit) better place, then I'm ok with that.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[BIGUN 1,061]

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There's a variety of evidence to believe in God. I've experienced it. It isn't proof, but it suggests to me that God exists. I fully understand that it may be my own desire to believe warping my understanding.

Spiritualism is a way of life, a belief system. It exists. Whether or not the bases of the beliefs exist is a different question. And as I said above, whether or not God exists doesn't affect my spirituality. If not, it then becomes a placebo, but since the end result is me being a better person, and the world being a (very very little bit) better place, then I'm ok with that.

Well written, Joe and that's about where I am at this point in my life. (sorry for the lag time between transmissions.. first Christmas off in ten years and am soaking it up with family and friends)

I'd also like to address the scientists in the thread regarding their position on leaning towards atheism. I went down the track of agnostic/atheism for a few years, but like you have found more evidence that God must exist than to not. It begins with thinking about the lowest cellular level at the bottom of the sea, to the intricacies and complexities of the human body, to the same for our planet, to the ability to point to a star in any direction at night and... as far as we know, it goes for eternity.

Interestingly enough, it was most of my friends/acquaintances in the field of science that brought me back to thinking about God (not religion). Some of these scientists were themselves agnostic/atheists and were merely bird-dogging questions I had.

I am at a point, where I do not understand the Steve and Kallend "heels dug in position" of atheism (by denying any form of a God existence vs. my position of denying a religious faith-based man interpreted version of God's will) when their own fellows can point to that same evidence of which you speak.

Numerous scientists - of which we've all heard the Einstein story, "The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html

My assumption on the atheistic perspective is pointed to Dr. Hawkings book, "The Grand Design" and a couple of its most published quotes. "The universe can and will create itself from nothing," and "Spontaneous creation is the reason why there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist," which afterwards brought a symphony of discussion almost the equivalent of that which occurred after "The DaVinci Code" in which the author in a work of fiction merely postulates a Jesus bloodline.

The rebuttal list of scientific quotes (as well as those published by the theological community) after Hawkings book came out are too long to list and post, but one stands out for me the most is that of Dr. Francis Collins who wrote:

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I am a scientist and a believer, and I find no conflict between those world views.

As the director of the Human Genome Project, I have led a consortium of scientists to read out the 3.1 billion letters of the human genome, our own DNA instruction book. As a believer, I see DNA, the information molecule of all living things, as God's language, and the elegance and complexity of our own bodies and the rest of nature as a reflection of God's plan.

I did not always embrace these perspectives. As a graduate student in physical chemistry in the 1970s, I was an atheist, finding no reason to postulate the existence of any truths outside of mathematics, physics and chemistry. But then I went to medical school, and encountered life and death issues at the bedsides of my patients. Challenged by one of those patients, who asked "What do you believe, doctor?", I began searching for answers.

I had to admit that the science I loved so much was powerless to answer questions such as "What is the meaning of life?" "Why am I here?" "Why does mathematics work, anyway?" "If the universe had a beginning, who created it?" "Why are the physical constants in the universe so finely tuned to allow the possibility of complex life forms?" "Why do humans have a moral sense?" "What happens after we die?"

I had always assumed that faith was based on purely emotional and irrational arguments, and was astounded to discover, initially in the writings of the Oxford scholar C.S. Lewis and subsequently from many other sources, that one could build a very strong case for the plausibility of the existence of God on purely rational grounds. My earlier atheist's assertion that "I know there is no God" emerged as the least defensible. As the British writer G.K. Chesterton famously remarked, "Atheism is the most daring of all dogmas, for it is the assertion of a universal negative."

But reason alone cannot prove the existence of God. Faith is reason plus revelation, and the revelation part requires one to think with the spirit as well as with the mind. You have to hear the music, not just read the notes on the page.

EDIT: SOURCE: http://articles.cnn.com/2007-04-03/us/collins.commentary_1_god-dna-revelation?_s=PM:US

2nd EDIT: And, the final question I have for the atheistic scientists is this," How is it possible that mankind has developed the ability to view into space and find "M-Class" planets millions of light years away, whose existence has been as long as that of planet Earth and in some cases longer... yet, there is no evidence of life, of any form. Hawklings quote re-addressed: "The universe can and will create itself from nothing," How is that possible that has not happened on other planets if the evolutionary model is correct?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Andy9o8 0]

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As the British writer G.K. Chesterton famously remarked, "Atheism is the most daring of all dogmas, for it is the assertion of a universal negative."

And that nonsense is a classic example - in this case by Chesterton, a self-described "orthodox Christian" - of devising a biased definition of one's opponent (in this case, one's ideological opponent) in order to disparage the opponent.

Once again: Atheism is not a dogma. It is not a belief system. Nor, Mr. Chesterton, is it an assertion of a negative. It is simply an absence of a particular form of belief; it is the absence of, and lack of agreement with, the assertion of a particular form of "positive".

The burden of proof of any form of supernatural rests always with the believers; it never rests with those who simply have an absence of such belief. True atheism is really not the assertion of anything. Atheists simply say: "If you choose to believe a certain thing based on faith, the burden is on you to prove it, otherwise I simply don't believe it, or even see any reason to give it any further thought."

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2nd EDIT: And, the final question I have for the atheistic scientists is this," How is it possible that mankind has developed the ability to view into space and find "M-Class" planets millions of light years away, whose existence has been as long as that of planet Earth and in some cases longer... yet, there is no evidence of life, of any form. Hawklings quote re-addressed: "The universe can and will create itself from nothing," How is that possible that has not happened on other planets if the evolutionary model is correct?

I'm surprised you'd ask that in earnest. It reminds me of the patent official about 100 years ago who supposedly said, "Everything than can be invented, has been."
Extrapolate.

[rehmwa 2]

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I fully understand that it may be my own desire to believe warping my understanding.

Spiritualism is a way of life, a belief system. It exists. Whether or not the basis of the beliefs exist is a different question. And as I said above, whether or not God exists doesn't affect my spirituality. If not, it then becomes a placebo, but since the end result is me being a better person, and the world being a (very very little bit) better place, then I'm ok with that.

This is excellent, and the only posture that a faithful person can take that I consider sincere, and real. Very view self proclaimed 'faithful' will (or is capable of) stand up to your honest and real belief.

And, when the faithful person understands this aspect of 'belief', then they aren't "warping" their understanding, they are just accepting their belief for what it is - a belief without proof.

And, the point of there being a 'basis' of belief existing. there isn't a "exists or not" discussion. By definition, it CAN'T exist - any 'evidence' is simply rationalization by the faithful. And that's ok.

I respect that honesty, and I respect the effect that their faith can have on them.

I'd take someone like this (truly faithful for the right reasons) as a neighbor long before others that just claim it as "truth" (contradiction) and protest too much. It's very analogous to the difference between a 'righteous' man vs a 'self-righteous' man......

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Skyrad 0]

Thanks for posting this, I had a cup of tea and very much liked the film. That which unites us is far far greater than that which divides us.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[BIGUN 1,061]

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2nd EDIT: And, the final question I have for the atheistic scientists is this," How is it possible that mankind has developed the ability to view into space and find "M-Class" planets millions of light years away, whose existence has been as long as that of planet Earth and in some cases longer... yet, there is no evidence of life, of any form. Hawklings quote re-addressed: "The universe can and will create itself from nothing," How is that possible that has not happened on other planets if the evolutionary model is correct?

I'm surprised you'd ask that in earnest. It reminds me of the patent official about 100 years ago who supposedly said, "Everything than can be invented, has been."
Extrapolate.

[rehmwa 2]

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The burden of proof of any form of supernatural rests always with the believers; it never rests with those who simply have an absence of such belief.

that's silly - you have implicit here that the faithful have an obligation to prove anything. Only the weakly faithful see a need for that and they are poor representatives if they feel that way (see Joe's post for a healthy example rather than the unhealthy ones you respond to).

faith is defined as there cannot exist any proof. So they are on equal ground as atheism in the neither side has zero need or obligation to prove anything.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Skyrad 0]

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Allah, Jehovah, and the Christian God are, of course, one and the same.

They're similar, not the same. Whether you like it or not, the three gods differ from each other. Not that much, just enough to produce centuries of hatred between the three groups of followers.



You are incorrect. 'They' are one and the same.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[rehmwa 2]

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Allah, Jehovah, and the Christian God are, of course, one and the same.

They're similar, not the same. Whether you like it or not, the three gods differ from each other. Not that much, just enough to produce centuries of hatred between the three groups of followers.



You are incorrect. They are one and the same. just enough to produce centuries of hatred between the three groups of followers.

I'd like to append something in blue.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Skyrad 0]

Free will is a bitch.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[rehmwa 2]

she's a bitch. but she's a bitch with benefits

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Andy9o8 0]

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2nd EDIT: And, the final question I have for the atheistic scientists is this," How is it possible that mankind has developed the ability to view into space and find "M-Class" planets millions of light years away, whose existence has been as long as that of planet Earth and in some cases longer... yet, there is no evidence of life, of any form. Hawklings quote re-addressed: "The universe can and will create itself from nothing," How is that possible that has not happened on other planets if the evolutionary model is correct?

I'm surprised you'd ask that in earnest. It reminds me of the patent official about 100 years ago who supposedly said, "Everything than can be invented, has been."
Extrapolate.

I would argue that I'm saying the exact opposite, "If the Hawking's position/quote is true, "The universe can and will create itself from nothing," Then, how come the evolutionary model hasn't already been invented or re-invented within any class of planet that we can see for millions of light years?

[BIGUN 1,061]

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Allah, Jehovah, and the Christian God are, of course, one and the same.

They're similar, not the same. Whether you like it or not, the three gods differ from each other. Not that much, just enough to produce centuries of hatred between the three groups of followers.



You are incorrect. 'They' are one and the same.

That's the conclusion I've come to and it saddens me. Basically, we as mankind have divided into three groups (which I believe to be language-based differences) that are fighting and killing each other in the name of the same God. And, finally, can we enlighten/educate to make it stop?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Andy9o8 0]

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The burden of proof of any form of supernatural rests always with the believers; it never rests with those who simply have an absence of such belief.

that's silly - you have implicit here that the faithful have an obligation to prove anything.

I'm not saying the faithful have a moral obligation to prove anything, at least not to me. But I've long since grown weary of those who say to me, "Prove that God/Santa/Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist", because, from a strictly intellectual standpoint, that turns the burden of proof on its head.

[beowulf 1]

Three groups??!

That's all?!

Really!?

[Skyrad 0]

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Allah, Jehovah, and the Christian God are, of course, one and the same.

They're similar, not the same. Whether you like it or not, the three gods differ from each other. Not that much, just enough to produce centuries of hatred between the three groups of followers.



You are incorrect. 'They' are one and the same.

That's the conclusion I've come to and it saddens me. Basically, we as mankind have divided into three groups (which I believe to be language-based differences) that are fighting and killing each other in the name of the same God. And, finally, can we enlighten/educate to make it stop?

I agree, we are like three small children fighting over which one our father loves the most.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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can we enlighten/educate to make it stop?

With God all things are possible.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[winsor 186]

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Allah, Jehovah, and the Christian God are, of course, one and the same.

They're similar, not the same. Whether you like it or not, the three gods differ from each other. Not that much, just enough to produce centuries of hatred between the three groups of followers.



You are incorrect. 'They' are one and the same.

That's the conclusion I've come to and it saddens me. Basically, we as mankind have divided into three groups (which I believe to be language-based differences) that are fighting and killing each other in the name of the same God. And, finally, can we enlighten/educate to make it stop?

I agree, we are like three small children fighting over which one our father loves the most.

"Having a war about religion is like having a fight over who's got the best imaginary friend." Yasir Arafat

[winsor 186]

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can we enlighten/educate to make it stop?

With God all things are possible.

But not bloody likely.

[Andy9o8 0]

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can we enlighten/educate to make it stop?

With God all things are possible.

But not bloody likely.

But likely bloody.

[Remster 24]

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Three groups??!

That's all?!

Really!?

No kidding...

Remster

[BIGUN 1,061]

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2nd EDIT: And, the final question I have for the atheistic scientists is this," How is it possible that mankind has developed the ability to view into space and find "M-Class" planets millions of light years away, whose existence has been as long as that of planet Earth and in some cases longer... yet, there is no evidence of life, of any form. Hawklings quote re-addressed: "The universe can and will create itself from nothing," How is that possible that has not happened on other planets if the evolutionary model is correct?

I'm surprised you'd ask that in earnest. It reminds me of the patent official about 100 years ago who supposedly said, "Everything than can be invented, has been."
Extrapolate.

I would argue that I'm saying the exact opposite, "If the Hawking's position/quote is true, "The universe can and will create itself from nothing," Then, how come the evolutionary model hasn't already been invented or re-invented within any class of planet that we can see for millions of light years?

And my point is: Why do you presume it hasn't been, just because species Terran homo sapiens sapiens hasn't discovered it yet at this point in time? The technology of our species is in its relative infancy.

[rehmwa 2]

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I'm not saying the faithful have a moral obligation to prove anything, at least not to me. But I've long since grown weary of those who say to me, "Prove that God/Santa/Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist", because, from a strictly intellectual standpoint, that turns the burden of proof on its head.

I understand. Frankly, them saying "prove it" is just as silly - for all the same reasons

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Coreece 190]

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Allah, Jehovah, and the Christian God are, of course, one and the same.

They're similar, not the same. Whether you like it or not, the three gods differ from each other. Not that much, just enough to produce centuries of hatred between the three groups of followers.



You are incorrect. 'They' are one and the same.

That's the conclusion I've come to and it saddens me. Basically, we as mankind have divided into three groups (which I believe to be language-based differences) that are fighting and killing each other in the name of the same God. And, finally, can we enlighten/educate to make it stop?

I agree, we are like three small children fighting over which one our father loves the most.

Personally I think all these wars are born out of political discontent where religion is just a superficial caualty...

btw, How can all three have the same God when Islam and Judaism don't believe Christ was God incarnate?

Neither believe in a triune God....

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Marinus 0]

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You are incorrect. 'They' are one and the same.

Yes, they're very compatible. You might reconcile Jaweh and Allah, but Jaweh and God is going to be hard, because Christians and Jews have a different, and rather essential, messiah. Jesus who's also God vs. one that has yet to be born.

It gets really interesting when you try to make Allah = God work. Because the absolute biggest sin in Islam, Shirk, is claiming there's entities equal to God (like, say, Jesus and the Holy Spirit). The absolute biggest sin in Christianity is of course to deny the H. Spirit but you won't be saved without Jesus anyway. Anyway, God = Allah is probably the fastest way to go to the deepest hell, for a meet and greet with, and a spit-roast by Satan & Shaytan



But of course this is theology, and I'm sure there a way to get around this. If you can make the trinity work, it should be no problem to make Allah=God=Jaweh work.