Which makes you more safe: A restraining order, or a gun?

[SivaGanesha 2]

Quote

It's your choice, of course. Were I in an abusive relationship. I'd end it. Were I in fear for my life. Bet your ass I'm ready to defend it. That's not bravado. It's common sense, IMHO. My reply to you wasn't an invite to a back & forth. It was merely an observation. I'm dead set in my SA beliefs. I've no need or desire to join the fray, here.

Wow.

Not a very friendly response considering I was basically agreeing with you.

I was merely pointing out that there are risks no matter what you do. A restraining order is a tool. A gun is also a tool. Both tools can be effective in certain circumstances. Both tools have risks involved in using them.

If you have a restraining order against someone, and they come within a certain radius of your home, you can have them arrested. If they call you, you can have them arrested. If they email you, you can have them arrested. You can't shoot them in any of those situations, so a gun is an ineffective tool in those cases.

If they actually break in, then the gun may come into play, restraining order or not.

If you are living in serious fear of someone, IMHO you should have both a restraining order AND a gun to defend yourself against them. Both tools are useful in different situations. As others have quite correctly pointed out, if you DO have to shoot someone, having a restraining order on file will go a long way to proving that you acted in self defense.

Also this thread has nothing to do with the Second Amendment. The question in this thread is about when a gun is effective in ensuring your safety. One's legal/constitutional right to own a gun is not the question under discussion in this thread. Not every discussion which touches on guns is about the Second Amendment.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[PiLFy 0]

Sorry Dave,
I didn't think my reply was unfriendly(?). No offense intended. I usually never even peruse the topics in SC. I've noticed the regulars just love to argue (& argue...& argue...). I don't. I only looked in here because I'm sick @home, & bored. People get really touchy about certain topics. Sometimes, I'm one of them. I make a rule of avoiding those topics unless I know someone very well. I guess I broke my rule. FWIW, I agree w/everything you typed in your last reply.

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

Second page (page 14) about a third of the way down

The source is about carrying a firearm. Not owning a firearm.

It also says on that same page
"Yes, that's better than being assaulted, rapped, or murdered"

So preventing your murder is not creating more problems.

Quote

I just hate the ideas some people have about self defense. It's not simple, or easy or fun.

No one said it was.... But self defense is better than just being a victim and hoping that the bad guy will not hurt you. Or just hoping that the police will save you.

Quote

I really feel my life is worth that.

But not my car stereo.

Again, you claimed "Guns don't solve problems. They often (usually) create more problems."

If I shoot someone to save my wife's life.... And I get arrested and have to pay 50k, lose my firearm.... But my wife is still alive. I'll consider that a win.

So you have not shown that they "create more problems". Only that it is not easy.

[mnealtx 0]

Actually, he has. While you solve the problem of the original attack, you also create other problem in the legal sense.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[devildog 0]

Quote

If I shoot someone to save my wife's life.... And I get arrested and have to pay 50k, lose my firearm.... But my wife is still alive. I'll consider that a win.

qft

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[billvon 2,405]

>f I shoot someone to save my wife's life.... And I get arrested and have to pay 50k,
>lose my firearm.... But my wife is still alive. I'll consider that a win.

Yep. And how much would you pay to avoid this?

=============================
Man accidentally shoots, kills wife while unloading gun

by The Associated Press
Posted on March 21, 2010 at 2:20 PM

Updated Sunday, Mar 21 at 4:26 PM

PHOENIX -- Phoenix police say a man was unloading his gun when it accidentally went off, and a bullet hit and killed his wife.

Police spokesman Trent Crump says Mary Shaw, 70, was pronounced dead in the 4:30 p.m. shooting Saturday in Cave Creek.

Her husband, identified as David Shaw, called authorities and said he accidentally shot his wife. She was hit in the head.

Crump says the shooting appears accidental to investigators. He says the man was inside his home unloading the gun to pack it for a trip when it discharged. The bullet went through a window and struck his wife, who was in the backyard.
==============================

As always there are no perfect answers.

[wolfriverjoe 1,346]

Quote

...If I shoot someone to save my wife's life.... And I get arrested and have to pay 50k, lose my firearm.... But my wife is still alive. I'll consider that a win.

So you have not shown that they "create more problems". Only that it is not easy.

I would agree with you that that would be a win in that situation.

I agree that self defense is far, far better than being a victim.

But I fail to see how being arrested, perhaps charged and tried, perhaps even convicted of some sort of murder wouldn't be "more problems".

Your wife (and you presumably) would still both be alive.
And that would be worth paying the price.

I am fully in favor of self defense.
I really, really wish that it wasn't as adversarial as it is.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[patrick.swazye 0]

I'm still dead.....but I can communicate with all of you!

As I see it down there, it's boiling down to a difference between liberals and conservatives....again.

Here's my take:

Scenario: You're having dinner with your wife and two small children in your own home.
Suddenly, the dangerous ex-hubby (that has a restrainging order against him) with a huge knife breaks through the front door, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, raises the knife, and charges.

Question: What do you do?

Liberal's "Quandry":
Well, that's not enough information to answer the question!
Does the ex-hubby look poor or oppressed?
Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack?
Could we run away?
What does my wife think?
What about the kids?
What does the law say about this situation?
Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me?
Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just be content to wound me?
If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me?
This is all so confusing!
I need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a conclusion.

Results: The family is murdered by the ex-hubby.


Conservative's "quandry":

You are prepared and ask your wife if she wants to shoot him or should you.

She says, "I'll blow his ass away", you toss her a Glock .40 and she is an expert shot.

Conservative Answer:
BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click... (sounds of reloading).

Dad: "Sweetheart, he looks like he's still moving, what do you kids think?"

Son: "Dad's right Mom, I saw it too..." BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click.

Daughter: "Nice group, Mom! Were those the Winchester Silver Tips?"

Results: The bad guy loses.

And yes it's an old joke, but I can steal and use it.
What are you going to do, shoot me?

Point Break was a great movie.....leave it alone!

Booo!
Screw with me and I visit you!

[devildog 0]

Quote

>f I shoot someone to save my wife's life.... And I get arrested and have to pay 50k,
>lose my firearm.... But my wife is still alive. I'll consider that a win.

Yep. And how much would you pay to avoid this?

=============================
Man accidentally shoots, kills wife while unloading gun

by The Associated Press
Posted on March 21, 2010 at 2:20 PM

Updated Sunday, Mar 21 at 4:26 PM

PHOENIX -- Phoenix police say a man was unloading his gun when it accidentally went off, and a bullet hit and killed his wife.

Police spokesman Trent Crump says Mary Shaw, 70, was pronounced dead in the 4:30 p.m. shooting Saturday in Cave Creek.

Her husband, identified as David Shaw, called authorities and said he accidentally shot his wife. She was hit in the head.

Crump says the shooting appears accidental to investigators. He says the man was inside his home unloading the gun to pack it for a trip when it discharged. The bullet went through a window and struck his wife, who was in the backyard.
==============================

As always there are no perfect answers.

Totally 100% avoidable death right there.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I would agree with you that that would be a win in that situation.

I agree that self defense is far, far better than being a victim.

But I fail to see how being arrested, perhaps charged and tried, perhaps even convicted of some sort of murder wouldn't be "more problems".

This thread has maintained a false dichotomy - I already posed it to you. It's not a choice of the restraining order versus the gun. We already know that restraining orders fail often. In some tragic cases, while the person is on a 10/15 day waiting period to pick up a gun.

The question, still unanswered by fact, is does a RO have any value over not having one if you have to shoot an attacker. I don't believe it does, or not very much.

Going to John's question, the key distinction between them is that with the RO, you rely on the possible bad person o respect it or not. With the self defense option, you're in control of your fate. Bill put out a story about a pathetic negligent discharge, but it doesn't take much to avoid those. To accidentally kill your wife, you have to violate pretty much all of the basic rules for handling guns.

[PiLFy 0]

Quote

>f I shoot someone to save my wife's life.... And I get arrested and have to pay 50k,
>lose my firearm.... But my wife is still alive. I'll consider that a win.

Yep. And how much would you pay to avoid this?

=============================
Man accidentally shoots, kills wife while unloading gun

by The Associated Press
Posted on March 21, 2010 at 2:20 PM

Updated Sunday, Mar 21 at 4:26 PM

PHOENIX -- Phoenix police say a man was unloading his gun when it accidentally went off, and a bullet hit and killed his wife.

Police spokesman Trent Crump says Mary Shaw, 70, was pronounced dead in the 4:30 p.m. shooting Saturday in Cave Creek.

Her husband, identified as David Shaw, called authorities and said he accidentally shot his wife. She was hit in the head.

Crump says the shooting appears accidental to investigators. He says the man was inside his home unloading the gun to pack it for a trip when it discharged. The bullet went through a window and struck his wife, who was in the backyard.
==============================

As always there are no perfect answers.

I remember this case. He got the mother in law, the wife's dog, & the nasty SOB who lived across the street, too. Damnedest thing...

OK, I just stumbled across this, & thought of this thread: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/03/us-battered-wife-idUSTRE79275Y20111003 A quick scan of the article revealed no prior police documentation of the alleged abuse. She emptied a .38 into him. Then, grabbed a nine, & put six more rounds into his prostrate & helpless body.

[wolfriverjoe 1,346]

Quote

Quote

I would agree with you that that would be a win in that situation.

I agree that self defense is far, far better than being a victim.

But I fail to see how being arrested, perhaps charged and tried, perhaps even convicted of some sort of murder wouldn't be "more problems".

This thread has maintained a false dichotomy - I already posed it to you. It's not a choice of the restraining order versus the gun. We already know that restraining orders fail often. In some tragic cases, while the person is on a 10/15 day waiting period to pick up a gun.

The question, still unanswered by fact, is does a RO have any value over not having one if you have to shoot an attacker. I don't believe it does, or not very much.

Going to John's question, the key distinction between them is that with the RO, you rely on the possible bad person o respect it or not. With the self defense option, you're in control of your fate. Bill put out a story about a pathetic negligent discharge, but it doesn't take much to avoid those. To accidentally kill your wife, you have to violate pretty much all of the basic rules for handling guns.

Does a RO have any value if you have to shoot the subject of it?

I think so. I don't have any facts, case law or personal experience to back it up, but I think any case of self defense would be substantially strengthened by being able to say that the dead (or injured) assailant was in violation of a court order by even being in the premises.
It certainly can't hurt.

SivaGanesha's post #26 is pretty much in line with my thinking. Both a gun and a RO are tools. Each is effective in some situations, but not in others.

And it's not an "either/or" situation. It's a "which one makes you feel safer?" situation. And I have to admit I chose RO in part to yank JR's chain a little

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[billvon 2,405]

>Bill put out a story about a pathetic negligent discharge, but it doesn't
>take much to avoid those. To accidentally kill your wife, you have to
>violate pretty much all of the basic rules for handling guns.

Definitely agreed. But that's true of a great many activities - driving, skydiving etc - and people regularly make incredibly bad decisions that result in their (or someone else's) death. It's part of the risk equation.

An objective decision would compare the odds of such an accidental death to the odds of actually having to "shoot someone to save my wife's life."* A quick search of the past 4 years reveals -

Dec 29 2010 - man accidentally kills wife with gun during role playing

Oct 9 2009 - man accidentally shoots wife; thinks she is intruder

Jul 21, 2011 - man shoots across pond, accidentally hits and kills strolling wife

Mar 25 2008 - man accidentally shoots and kills wife while installing satellite TV dish

Aug 27 2009 - man accidentally shoots and kills wife, calls 911, then kills himself before they get there

These were limited to cases where a man shot and killed his own wife accidentally.

So - how many cases have there been in the past 4 years where a man shot and killed an intruder who was threatening his wife's life?

========================================

* - Needless to say there are many more reasons to both own a gun (i.e. target shooting, defending one's house from ordinary thieves etc) and many more reasons to NOT own a gun (child could get to it, thief could steal it and use it against you etc.) To narrow it I'm just talking about "defending wife from an intruder that threatens her" vs "accidentally shooting and killing wife."

[devildog 0]

Quote

So - how many cases have there been in the past 4 years where a man shot and killed an intruder who was threatening his wife's life?

First google hit of "number of crimes prevented with guns": In 1997, he said there were about 440,000 violent crimes and 9,000 murders committed with guns. By contrast, there were over 2 million violent crimes prevented through the use of guns. The media, Lott said, focus on the former category because it produces an actual victim or a dead body. The latter usually produces no rapist or murderer or actual crime.

http://www.aim.org/media-monitor/anti-gun-propaganda/


second:

According to the National Self Defense Survey conducted by Florida State University criminologists in 1994, the rate of Defensive Gun Uses can be projected nationwide to approximately 2.5 million per year -- one Defensive Gun Use every 13 seconds.
Among 15.7% of gun defenders interviewed nationwide during The National Self Defense Survey, the defender believed that someone "almost certainly" would have died had the gun not been used for protection -- a life saved by a privately held gun about once every 1.3 minutes. (In another 14.2% cases, the defender believed someone "probably" would have died if the gun hadn't been used in defense.)...Source: "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun," by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, in The Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, Volume 86, Number 1, Fall, 1995

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/noframedex.html


third:

Lott: Criminals are deterred by higher penalties. Just as higher arrest and conviction rates deter crime, so does the risk that someone committing a crime will confront someone able to defend him or herself. There is a strong negative relationship between the number of law-abiding citizens with permits and the crime rate—as more people obtain permits there is a greater decline in violent crime rates. For each additional year that a concealed handgun law is in effect the murder rate declines by 3 percent, rape by 2 percent, and robberies by over 2 percent.

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html

---------------

Seems pretty effective to me

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[billvon 2,405]

>First google hit of "number of crimes prevented with guns": In 1997, he
>said there were about 440,000 violent crimes and 9,000 murders
>committed with guns. By contrast, there were over 2 million violent crimes
>prevented through the use of guns.

No doubt. But again, I'm comparing two pretty specific cases, since I'm speaking to the value of a restraining order vs. the value of a gun to protect your wife's life. Like I said, there are a great many other reasons both for (preventing crime) and against (use for murder, accidental death etc)

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

So - how many cases have there been in the past 4 years where a man shot and killed an intruder who was threatening his wife's life?

You mean like almost any home invasion where there's a couple present?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[SivaGanesha 2]

Quote

Sorry Dave,
I didn't think my reply was unfriendly(?). No offense intended. I usually never even peruse the topics in SC. I've noticed the regulars just love to argue (& argue...& argue...). I don't. I only looked in here because I'm sick @home, & bored. People get really touchy about certain topics. Sometimes, I'm one of them. I make a rule of avoiding those topics unless I know someone very well. I guess I broke my rule. FWIW, I agree w/everything you typed in your last reply.

No problem :) sorry for any confusion ! Yes it can get touchy on here by times!!

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[wolfriverjoe 1,346]

Quote

Quote

So - how many cases have there been in the past 4 years where a man shot and killed an intruder who was threatening his wife's life?

Nice way to stack the odds there, Bill.

I didn't limit it to the past 4 years, or to "shot and killed". You don't have to kill the guy, nor even shoot him, to defend yourself with a gun.
NRA Armed Citizen using the keyword "wife" in a search.

594 results.

Edit: I can't seem to make the link go to the search results page, it keeps linkng to the search page. If you are motivated, type "wife" into the search box. If someone else can make the link go to the search results page, I would be grateful.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

So - how many cases have there been in the past 4 years where a man shot and killed an intruder who was threatening his wife's life?

Nice way to stack the odds there, Bill.

I didn't limit it to the past 4 years, or to "shot and killed". You don't have to kill the guy, nor even shoot him, to defend yourself with a gun.
NRA Armed Citizen using the keyword "wife" in a search.

594 results.

Yeah, I saw that too.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Re: "Man shoots wife"
To narrow it I'm just talking about "defending wife from an intruder that threatens her"

Houston Chronicle, Houston, TX, 3/31/08
State: TX
American Rifleman Issue: 3/31/2008
The Pattersons of Houston, TX, were watching television late Wednesday night when a masked intruder barged into their apartment, wielding a semi-automatic pistol and demanding money and their T.V. When the couple refused his demands, he ordered them to remove their clothing, paying particular attention to Mrs. Patterson. With the intruder distracted, Mr. Patterson used the opportunity to charge and struggled with the intruder until his wife could grab their handgun. After Mrs. Patterson shot the intruder at least once, he staggered outside and collapsed at the bottom of the stairs leading up to the Patterson family’s apartment, where he remained until police arrived.

THe Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Tucker, GA, 3/20/08
State: GA
American Rifleman Issue: 3/20/2008
When an intruder broke into their Tucker, Georgia, home last Tuesday night, 81-year-old Robert Jenkins heroically protected his wife and property with a handgun. Jenkins grabbed his 78-year-old wife’s handgun after hearing unfamiliar noises late in the night and encountered an intruder in his kitchen. The intruder charged at Jenkins and they struggled over the gun until Jenkins fired, killing the intruder. DeKalb County police spokesman J.T. Ware said, “He defended his home, defended his wife. He did what everybody would hope to do in a situation like that.”

The Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Ft. Worth, TX, 3/17/08
State: TX
American Rifleman Issue: 3/17/2008
While their children slept, Julius Billy of Fort Worth, TX and his wife were making plans for a family vacation late Thursday night when they heard someone trying to kick open their back door. Billy retrieved his 9mm handgun and went outside to confront the intruder as his wife dialed 911. The intruder stood in the Billy’s back yard, and, despite Julius Billy’s repeated warnings to get down on the ground, kept advancing towards the house until Billy shot him in the shoulder. Police arrived soon after and took the intruder into custody. Noting that his children were in bed nearby at the time, Billy commented, "If he got past me, who would be around to stop him? The main thing for me was that I was the last line of defense for my family."

The Macon Telegraph, Milledgeville, GA, 3/04/08
State: GA
American Rifleman Issue: 3/4/2008
A week before Christmas, Ken Foshee of Milledgeville, GA was contentedly sitting on the back deck of his new home, his wife and grandson warm inside when two armed assailants surprised Mr. Foshee, forcing him into his home and demanding money. In the struggle, one of the robbers shot Mr. Foshee in the hand. Foshee’s grandson ran next door to alert his uncle, Ronnie, the Foshees’ son, who grabbed his gun and ran to help. Ronnie fired a warning shot, causing the robber who was holding a knife to Mrs. Foshee’s throat to flee. As the remaining assailant was severely beating Mr. Foshee in a bedroom, Ronnie shot and killed him, saving his father’s life. Baldwin County Sheriff Bill Massee said, “Had it not been for the grandson's brave action and Ronnie Foshee arriving at his parents' home, it's likely the attack would have ended in even more tragedy.”

The Macon Telegraph, Macon, GA,12/20/07
State: GA
American Rifleman Issue: 3/1/2008
His new home recently completed, Ken Foshee sat on the back deck with his wife and 17-year-old grandson. The last thing he expected was an attack by armed assailants. Police say the suspects demanded money and forced Foshee and his wife inside the home. One of the men shot Foshee in the hand. Meanwhile, the grandson ran next door and alerted his uncle, Ronnie Foshee, to the situation. Ronnie grabbed a gun and ran to the scene. Finding a man holding a knife to his mother's throat, he fired a shot and the suspect fled. The other suspect was in the bedroom, severely beating Ken Foshee. Ronnie shot his father's assailant, killing him.

The News Journal, Wilmington, DE, 2/15/2008
State: DE
American Rifleman Issue: 2/20/2008
Bernis Martin was rushing to close his Wilmington, Del. liquor store in order to buy Valentine’s Day flowers for his wife, when he was startled by four teenagers intent on robbing him. After one of the youths shot at Martin with a .22-caliber rifle, Martin pulled his pistol out and fired back, injuring the rifle-toting youth in the thigh. All four youths were eventually arrested. One local patron of Martin’s store, City Councilwoman Stephanie T. Bolden, said, “I'm glad he opened right back up to let them know that he wasn't going to be intimidated by all of this madness.”

Waynesville Daily Guide, Waynesville, MO,11/17/07
State: MO
American Rifleman Issue: 2/1/2008
A crime spree was in progress. Two people were already in the hospital with serious head injuries. Police say the suspects in that crime, a 30-year-old man and a 16-yearold boy, chose a disabled man and his wife as their next victims. The suspects broke into the home with a pellet gun and baseball bat Despite the homeowner's spinal affliction, he proved no easy victim. He drew a handgun, causing the older intruder to flee. The younger intruder waited for authorities. "I'm a Life member of the National Rifle Association and I personally love homeowners being able to defend themselves and their families," said Pulaski County, MO, Sheriff J.B. King.

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Atlanta, GA, 12/7/07
State: GA
American Rifleman Issue: 12/12/2007
When Ronald Johnson of DeKalb County, Georgia drove home last Thursday night with his wife and two young children, he was surprised to find two men waiting for him near the bottom of his driveway. When the two men attempted to rob him at gunpoint, Johnson reacted quickly to defend his family, using his own handgun to shoot one suspect fatally and drive away the other.

The Greenville News, Greenville, SC, 9/12/07
State: SC
American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2007
A woman from retired preacher Bill Willis's church invited him to take a concealed-carry class with her. Though Willis had never been particularly interested in firearms, he agreed, obtaining his permit, purchasing a .22-caliber pistol and practicing with it regularly. Not long after, Willis' wife, Judith, woke him in the middle of the night and announced there was an intruder. Willis spotted the man darting into the bathroom and quickly retrieved his Walther P22. Police say he warned the suspect three times, "Come out with your hands up. I have a gun and I will shoot." The man exited the bathroom and approached Willis, pretending to surrender, then pulled out a knife and viciously stabbed Willis'arm. Willis shot and killed the assailant. Deputies have temporarily seized Willis' pistol as evidence, but he purchased another. "It would be foolish not to be prepared," he said.

Statesman Journal, Salem, OR, 9/20/07
State: OR
American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2007
Yev Gerasimenko was taking his turn caring for his 4-day-old daughter while his wife rested. He was interrupted by loud knocks at the door and answered it to find two large men. One asked for someone Gerasimenko didn't know."I said, 'There's no-body here by that name, and I shut the door as soon as I could," he explained. That's when police say the biggest man took a running start and slammed into the door. Gerasimenko called for his wife to take their baby, lock herself in the bathroom and phone police. He loaded his 9 mm handgun and yelled for the man to leave, but he continued trying to breach the door."I'm shouting, 'I have a gun! Why are you trying to break into my house? I'll shoot you if you don't go away,' Gerasimenko recalled. But the suspect didn't heed the warning. Gerasimenko fired two shots, wounding the suspect and holding him for police." ... A gun in a good responsible citizen's hand is a blessing," Gerasimenko said.

Daily Press, Victorville, CA, 9/26/07
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2007
The screams of his pregnant wife -- a horrible sound -- woke Roger Gilchrist from a dead sleep. He grabbed his gun and ran to the garage, where he discovered that his wife had driven in and stumbled upon a gun-wielding burglar. "Under the circumstances, with him having a gun and standing next to my pregnant wife, I'm not going to wait and see what happens -- I'm going to fire," Gilchrist said. Police say the burglar shot first and Gilchrist returned fire, injuring the intruder. The suspect fled, but was apprehended shortly thereafter. "If [my husband] didn't have that gun, we would've both been dead," said Gilchrist's wife.

The Las Vegas Review-Journal, Las Vegas, Nev., 8/15/07
State: NV
American Rifleman Issue: 11/1/2007
According to authorities, a home-owner in a gated community was awakened by noises and, to his horror, found an intruder choking his wife. The homeowner quickly ran for his gun and returned to discover two additional intruders. The men, at least one of them armed with a gun, held the homeowner's wife hostage and demanded cash and jewelry. Fearing his wife would be killed, the homeowner opened fire and at least one of the intruders shot back. The suspects fled. Two were sought by police; one died in the backyard.

The Dallas Morning News, Dallas, Texas, 7/5/07
State: TX
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2007
A man was sitting in his vehicle while his wife shopped for groceries. To his horror, three men burst into the store with a gun, appeared to fire and began robbing customers. The man called 9-1-1, then received a call from his wife. "I just heard her saying, `There is nothing in my purse,'" he recollects. "And there was a `pow.' The phone went dead." The man, a concealed-handgun license holder, sprang from his vehicle and entered the store with his .45-caliber pistol. He hoped to avoid confronting the bandits, but police say that was not to be. One of the robbers pointed a gun at the man, and he responded by firing two shots at the suspect, injuring him as his accomplices fled. Neither the man's wife nor any others were harmed. "I was just worried about my wife," the man said, noting he took no satisfaction in shooting the suspect. "I just wanted to get her out of there."

Inland Valley Daily Bulletin, Ontario, CA, 6/15/07
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2007
Police say two or three men who broke into a home looking for drugs messed up big time."The victims had never seen them before. They probably picked the wrong house," explained Los Angeles County Sheriff's Sgt. Charles Jurcak. "[The suspects] entered the location, confronted the husband and demanded to know where the pot was!' When the couple said they didn't know anything about marijuana, the frustrated intruders began to beat them. While they focused on the husband, the wife went to the bedroom to retrieve a firearm. On her way back, she was confronted in the hallway by one of the intruders and shot him several times. The suspects fled, but the injured intruder was found lying nearby and arrested.

The Oregonian, Portland, OR, 6/30/07
State: OR
American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2007
Leroy Hudson was asleep upstairs while his wife, Janice, slept down-stairs. Both awoke with alarm to loud, suspicious noises coming from their enclosed back porch. Leroy got a firearm while Janice called 9-1-1 to report an intruder. Leroy, 71, opened the door and encountered a man in his mid-20s. He demanded to know what the intruder was doing in hopes of getting him to leave. But the man refused to speak, instead moving toward Hudson, who fired a single shot, incapacitating him.

St. Petersburg Times, St. Petersburg, Fla., 3/13/07
State: FL
American Rifleman Issue: 7/1/2007
POLICE SAY A 20-year-old couple went on a weekend crime spree until their luck ran out. It started on a Saturday morning when they attacked a 92-year-old in his home and sent him to the hospital. That night, they broke into another home and assaulted the occupant before robbing her. Their rampage ended the next day when they broke into the home of Jimmy Norman and his wife. Norman retrieved a handgun and shot the male intruder twice. The injured suspect was to be charged pending his release from the hospital, and his accomplice was also apprehended.

Houston Chronicle, Houston, Texas, 4/4/07
State: TX
American Rifleman Issue: 7/1/2007
BOB MANROSS SAID he often keeps a firearm handy because of his area's crime problem. "I don't take any chances," he said. That proved good policy when a man broke into his home, called him by name and said he would shoot him unless he handed over his money. "I told him I didn't have the money with me, but I'd get it from the other room," said the 77-year-old Manross, who had a rifle at the ready nearby. "He wasn't expecting me to come back through here and shoot him." Manross shot the burglar, whom he recognized as a man living nearby. He directed police to the suspect's home, where they found him suffering from a gunshot wound. "I am not proud of what I have done," Manross said of the incident, "but I have to protect my wife and my house."

The Times, Gainesville, Ga., 1/23/07
State: GA
American Rifleman Issue: 5/1/2007
DOUG MAGNUS AND his wife were startled by the sound every homeowner fears -- a loud noise at the door during the midnight hour. Police say Magnus, armed with a firearm, went to investigate. Just outside the door, he encountered a man wearing a ski mask who fired several shots. Magnus returned a single round, killing his assailant.

The Press Democrat, Santa Rosa, Calif., l2/18/2006
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 3/1/2007
GERRY STECKMYER AND his wife awoke to a loud commotion and were shocked by what they saw outside their bedroom window -- a deranged man was shouting and jumping on the roof of their car. Police say that when Mr. Steckmyer opened the window and shouted at the man to get off the car, the man walked toward the house and started trying to break in. He kicked the home's front door and slammed his shoulder into it. Steckmyer repeatedly told the man to leave and warned that police were on the way, but there was no stopping the man's odd behavior. He grabbed a 5-gallon water cooler bottle, smashed in'a window and entered the home. When the intruder neared the master bedroom, Steckmyer shot him with a handgun, killing him.

St. Petersburg Times, St. Petersburg, Fla., 11/28/2006
State: FL
American Rifleman Issue: 2/1/2007
JOHN KILGORE TOOK precautions to guard his home against invasion, including the construction of a gate and a sign warning that a security dog lived on the property. As Kilgore and his family unpacked from a vacation, police say a burglar thought he saw an opportunity to circumvent Kilgore's safeguards, but apparently overlooked Kilgore's final line of defense -- a loaded firearm. The family left a door unlocked as they brought in luggage, and the burglar hurried inside. Kilgore's wife stumbled upon the man in a bedroom, ran out screaming and pulled her two sons into another bedroom. Kilgore ran to his family's aid, shooting the suspect as Mrs. Kilgore dialed 9-1-1. The intruder was listed in critical condition at the hospital.

Bluefield Daily Telegraph, Bluefield, WV, 10/20/06
State: wv
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2007
Police say Rodney Hendrick and his wife were sleeping when a 24-year-old man smashed a front door window, waking the couple. Mr. Hendrick went to investigate, armed with a .357 Magnum revolver, and found that the suspect had left. Foolishly, the suspect soon returned and lofted a brick at the front door, knocking it open. He entered the residence, and Hendrick fired a single shot. The intruder died at the scene.

Tribune Review, Pittsburgh, PA, 09/26/06
State: pa
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2007
Dan Brown believed a pair of burglars had been casing his auto repair garage. "Someone had to have been watching us because they came right after I left," he said. Police say two thieves confronted Brown's wife, who was alone, and demanded money. Instead, she grabbed a pole used to prop up car hoods and used it to strike the biggest intruder, who then hit her on the head as she ran toward the shop's office. "She got there and pulled out the gun we keep in the drawer for protection," Brown said. The suspects promptly fled. Mrs. Brown has since applied for a concealed-carry permit.

The Sun Herald, Biloxi, MS, 10/18/06
State: ms
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2007
According to authorities, a man accosted a husband and wife one evening after they returned home from their business. "It appears he either followed them or was waiting on them to get out of their vehicle," said Sheriff George H. Payne, Jr. The man struck the husband with a gun, then fired several shots at the couple. The man's wife, a 73-year-old grandmother of four with two great-grandchildren, grabbed her handgun and fired back. The suspect fled to a hospital, where he died. "I want people to know you have the right to protect yourself, especially from a robber that's shooting at you," Payne said.

The Gazette-Enterprise, Seguin, TX, 09/05/06
State: tx
American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2006
The homeowners, who were asleep, "awoke to a living nightmare," said Seguin, Texas, police department officer Aaron Seidenberger. "A person had broken into their home, and now they were violently struggling to get the suspect to leave." The male homeowner fought with the burglar, who was armed with a wooden club-like object he found inside the home. The homeowner broke free, retrieved a .40-caliber handgun from inside the bedroom, and yelled at the intruder to leave. When the burglar made a mad dash toward the homeowner, he shot and killed him. Seidenberger said that while the homeowner is likely shaken, "He has to look at it [from the viewpoint of] 'If I had not done what I did to protect myself and my wife, then I might not be here'."

The Times News, Kingsport, TN, 03/11/06
State: tn
American Rifleman Issue: 7/1/2006
Lowell Wilson heard a noise coming from the bedroom where his wife was resting and went to investigate. When he tried to open the door, a man closed it, so Wilson retrieved his gun. "My wife is blind, and she thought it was me [in the room]," he said. "He opened the door ... and stuck his head out. He said, 'It's cool, man. It's cool.'" But it was far from "cool." Wilson shot the intruder, who fled with an accomplice. Police planned to charge the injured suspect after his release from the hospital. Wilson said he'll always feel safe in his home as long as he has something to use for protection. "I know I can take care of myself," he said.

Lubbock Avalanche-Journal, Lubbock, TX, 03/26/06
State: tx
American Rifleman Issue: 7/1/2006
According to authorities, a 29-year-old man entered the bedroom window of a sleeping 70-year-old Tom Ritter and his wife, and viciously stabbed Ritter with a knife. Ritter's wife, awakened by the commotion, fired one round from her revolver into the intruder's chest. Ritter was listed in stable condition. The suspect was under police observation in the intensive-care unit at another hospital.

The Selma Times-Journal, Selma, AL, 01/26/06
State: al
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/2006
Upon returning home, an NRA Life member received some alarming news. His wife had just seen people running in and out of her father's home. Retrieving a pistol and a shotgun, the man drove his pickup the short trip to the house in question and cornered three suspicious men sitting in a car. "I jumped out of the truck and they stuck their hands up in the car. I made the driver get out," he told a local newspaper. As he held the suspects at gunpoint, they told him they had stopped to urinate, but he didn't believe their story. "I said, 'You don't need to talk to me because the sheriff's coming and you need to talk to him.'" When police arrived, they charged the men with third-degree burglary and recovered several stolen items.

Associated Press, 01/17/06
State: nc
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/2006
Carlton Whitted, Sr., woke up after hearing a loud noise reverberate throughout his home. "It sounded like a bomb went off," he said. What he heard was two men in their 20s kicking in the door of the isolated, rural North Carolina home. Police say the men shot Whitted's wife and daughter in the legs. Whitted then grabbed his .22-cal. rifle from the corner of his bedroom and shot both intruders, who fled on foot. The suspects turned up at a hospital where they faced several felony charges upon their release.

Savannah Morning News, Savannah, GA, 11/19/05
State: ga
American Rifleman Issue: 2/1/2006
Harry Carpenter suffers from pulmonary fibrosis and wears oxygen tubes for much of the day, but that didn't stop him from fending off two knife-wielding burglars. Police say two young men barged into his home, one forcing him at knifepoint to sit on a couch while the other demanded money from his wife, Jackie. When Jackie pretended to faint, Harry's captor went to investigate. Harry sneaked into the laundry room where he kept an unloaded .22-cal. rifle he's owned since his youth. "I shot many a squirrel with that thing," he said later. The intruder returned before Harry could load his firearm, but Harry racked the bolt home as if it were loaded. "He yelled out, 'Let's go, he's got a gun!'" Harry recalled. The suspects fled the scene and were being sought by police.

The St. Augustine Record, St. Augustine, FL, 11/05/05
State: fl
American Rifleman Issue: 2/1/2006
Police say three men broke into a couple's residence with baseball bats and a gun in search of prescription drugs, but all they left with was a lesson from an armed citizen. Two of the men allegedly ordered the couple and their visiting family members to the floor while a third suspect stole the medications. Meanwhile, a family member in another room heard the commotion and armed himself with a firearm. He entered the room and fired several shots at the intruder who was holding the victim's relatives at gunpoint, hitting him once in the torso. Two men fled in a car and were apprehended by police. The wounded man was found collapsed in the street. The trio faces charges of home invasion, robbery and kidnapping. "They were very threatening to the family," said St. Johns County Sheriff David Shoar. "[The man who was shot] had the gun to the wife's head."

I could keep going with these... Do you want more?

[rehmwa 2]

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l that way

No. Not at all. I own
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Being able to establish before the incident that there was a distinct possibilt
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My point is that guns simply give .
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The RO give you a far better chance at winning in court, w
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[kelpdiver 2]

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I think so. I don't have any facts, case law or personal experience to back it up, but I think any case of self defense would be substantially strengthened by being able to say that the dead (or injured) assailant was in violation of a court order by even being in the premises.
It certainly can't hurt.

oh, I don't think it hurts (unless the other party files a countering RO request and is granted, as typical in divorce proceedings. Until recently, that meant no gun rights for you either). But as I said, it's not a get out of jail free card. In a state like CA, you still have to have been in immediate danger. And you'd still be in that same situation if an ex SO broke into your house without an existing RO. In a state like Texas, maybe violating the RO is enough to allow a legal shooting under any circumstances.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>Bill put out a story about a pathetic negligent discharge, but it doesn't
>take much to avoid those. To accidentally kill your wife, you have to
>violate pretty much all of the basic rules for handling guns.

Definitely agreed. But that's true of a great many activities - driving, skydiving etc - and people regularly make incredibly bad decisions that result in their (or someone else's) death. It's part of the risk equation.

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To a degree. People have a lot of NDs. But I am not people. I don't measure my risk by the lowest common denominator. My guns don't "just go off" and I did 180 jumps without a malfunction. (That wasn't my great packing skill - I'd give most credit to selection of two triathlons and a pilot as the main)

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So - how many cases have there been in the past 4 years where a man shot and killed an intruder who was threatening his wife's life?

A lot more than 5. BTW, how did they determine it was really an accident in your last example? I'm suspicious of ND homicides. It seems like an easy defense to make.

The strongest argument to make against gun ownership is the suicide rate, though you would need to ignore that there are other methods readily available.

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[nigel99 144]

Ironically I think that having a restraining order against someone increases the likelihood that a gun will help.

I think you are probably in a situation where you have a higher likelihood of having a violent or abusive individual force their way into your home while you are awake and giving you the opportunity to better defend yourself.

For Joe average I think gun ownership does more to make the owner "feel" safe than it actually achieves in practice.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Tatetatetate 0]

Obviously you've never lived in Britain!

Somebody breaks into your home, ties up your family and tortures them for a bit, even threatens to execute your wife and kids....

Should you manage to break free and fight them off and harm the person who broke into your home? YOU get arrested for assault.

Ten years ago, farmer unloaded a shotgun into a burglar, he got done for manslaughter...3 months ago a gang of 4 men with knives enter a man's home. A fight ensues man grabs knife and sticks it in the intruder... gets arrested for murder and put in jail (jail as in remand prison where they hold people while investigations occur)