dmcoco84 4 #126 May 22, 2011 Quotebackground material regarding Yigal Amir's response the last time peace was within striking distance... Fixed it for you. Now, lets ask the important question here. Dreamdancer: Do you think that Jews have a right to live? Deltron80: Do you think that Jews have a right to live? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #127 May 22, 2011 the important question - rather than attacking me with the old when did you stop beating your wife question - is when will the israelis come to their senses and realise that the 1967 borders are the only defensible solution for them...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #128 May 22, 2011 Quotethe important question - rather than attacking me with the old when did you stop beating your wife question - is when will the israelis come to their senses and realise that the 1967 borders are the only defensible solution for them... OK, last time ...Someone help me understand how returning to the 1967 borders is the solution for finally achieving peace in the region when prior to 1967 those very same borders were completely unacceptable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #129 May 22, 2011 Quote Quote the important question - rather than attacking me with the old when did you stop beating your wife question - is when will the israelis come to their senses and realise that the 1967 borders are the only defensible solution for them... OK, last time ...Someone help me understand how returning to the 1967 borders is the solution for finally achieving peace in the region when prior to 1967 those very same borders were completely unacceptable. it's 40 years later and the israelis have won. now it's time to make peace stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #130 May 22, 2011 Quotethe important question - rather than attacking me with the old when did you stop beating your wife question - is when will the israelis come to their senses and realise that the 1967 borders are the only defensible solution for them... You were attacked? Hmmm, didn't see that anyway your hatred for Israel profound but besides that, the borders argument is a moot point Regardless who is right, the Palestinians will never accept and offer of that does not right of return (even though that is bogus too) To get that would mean the end of Israel. (which what I believe is your end goal too)"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #131 May 22, 2011 Can you point me to the Palestinian Peace Plan? That would be the document that the Palestinian Leadership has put forward that states that if Israel does __x__ the rocket attacks, suicide bombings etc. will end? I'd like to see the official proposal that outlines EXACTLY what they want. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #132 May 22, 2011 I'd like to see the official proposal that outlines EXACTLY what they want. They have offered it up It starts with the end of Israel"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #133 May 22, 2011 Quote>In short, the hatred taught to Palestinian and other Arab children will >never allow Israel to live in peace. And the hatred taught to Jewish children will never allow Palestinians to live in peace. (See attached.) Someone has to break the cycle on both sides. Palestine Media Watch On Youtube I challenge you to find anything similar to this coming from the other side. The Pals really are their own worst enemy. mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #134 May 22, 2011 QuoteQuote>In short, the hatred taught to Palestinian and other Arab children will >never allow Israel to live in peace. And the hatred taught to Jewish children will never allow Palestinians to live in peace. (See attached.) Someone has to break the cycle on both sides. Palestine Media Watch On Youtube I challenge you to find anything similar to this coming from the other side. The Pals really are their own worst enemy. mh . Or this: http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=5001 QuotePA to pay salaries to all terrorists in Israeli prisons Financial aid from many donor countries goes directly to PA budget from which salaries are paid by Itamar Marcus and Nan Jacques Zilberdik A law published in the official Palestinian Authority Registry last month grants all Palestinians and Israeli Arabs imprisoned in Israel for terror crimes a monthly salary from the PA. The Arabic word the PA uses for this payment is "ratib," meaning "salary." Palestinian Media Watch has reported numerous times on Palestinian Authority glorification of terrorists serving time in Israeli prisons. Following the signing of this new law, the PA is now paying a salary to these prisoners. So where does all the money countries from around the world contribute to the PA every year go to? Yes folks, this is one of the "Humanitarian" causes your tax dollars go to. QuoteThe purpose of the PA salary: 1- A monthly salary to the prisoners while in prison "to provide for the needs of prisoners within Israeli prisons" 2- Additional benefits for released prisoners 3- Additional benefits for prisoners' families 4- Additional clause mandates funding "for the prisoners' legal needs" Recipients: All prisoners involved in terror: - All prisoners no matter what their crime or what their political/terror group affiliation receive the same monthly base salaries from the PA. Hundreds of Palestinian prisoners serve multiple life-sentences for murder. They all now receive a PA salary. - The salary goes directly to the terrorist or the terrorist's family. - The prisoners receive their salary from the time of arrest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #135 May 22, 2011 meanwhile the world waits for israel to accept the 1967 borders. will they accept or once more reject a sensible peace deal from their closest ally?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #136 May 22, 2011 QuoteThe U.S. president also warned that Israel will face growing isolation without a credible Middle East peace process and said that we cannot afford to wait another decade, or another two decades, or another three decades, to achieve peace. Obama reassured the crowd of Israel supporters that the U.S. commitment to Israel's security is 'ironclad' and that the U.S. demands that Hamas recognize Israel's right to exist. The U.S. president also urged Hamas to release abducted Israel Defense Forces soldier Gilad Shalit. Obama reemphasized the special relationship between the U.S. and Israel, and said his administration "will continue to maintain Israel's qualitative edge." http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/obama-to-aipac-1967-borders-reflect-long-standing-u-s-policy-1.363351stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #137 May 22, 2011 Quotemeanwhile the world waits for israel to accept the 1967 borders. will they accept or once more reject a sensible peace deal from their closest ally? Well, the world better not hold their breathe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #138 May 22, 2011 QuoteThis is the crime and its punishment: Israel said an arrogant "no" to America, and America will neither forgive nor forget. We should be grateful to Obama. In his speech Friday night, he exposed the naked truth - that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu does not want peace. We should also be grateful to the prime minister: On Friday night he finally told the truth, put an end to the deceptions of his Bar-Ilan speech, to promises of the "30 magic words" that he would utter Tuesday in Congress and to his "commitment to two states." Netanyahu does not want a Palestinian state, period. The new world envisioned by Obama has no place for endless military occupation, for scenes like Operation Cast Lead, for shooting at protesters and for checkpoints. There is no agreement without a Palestinian state, and there is no Palestinian state without the 1967 borders. Netanyahu's harsh "no," which is Israel's harsh "no," will resound to the ends of the earth. And if that were not enough, another consensual lie has been revealed: Israel is not a true friend of the United States. This is not how a friend behaves, certainly not one so dependent on the other. http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/netanyahu-has-invited-america-to-punish-israel-1.363226stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #139 May 22, 2011 Quotemeanwhile the world waits for israel to accept the 1967 borders. will they accept or once more reject a sensible peace deal from their closest ally? show me where the Palestinians will agree to the border change without right of return please Until then you are just blowing troll smoke"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #140 May 22, 2011 >with all due respect, I grew up in the Israeli education system and I was >never taught to hate the Palestinians. And I suspect most Palestinians were never taught to hate Israelis. But the exceptions to that are much more newsworthy as well. >you'll take a picture of a kid dressed as a soldier for Purim (Jewish version >of Halloween) and claim he's being trained to kill Arabs? No. But I suspect someone will use a similar picture and use it to claim that Arabs are being trained to kill Israelis. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #141 May 22, 2011 QuoteQuoteThis is the crime and its punishment: Israel said an arrogant "no" to America, and America will neither forgive nor forget. We should be grateful to Obama. In his speech Friday night, he exposed the naked truth - that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu does not want peace. We should also be grateful to the prime minister: On Friday night he finally told the truth, put an end to the deceptions of his Bar-Ilan speech, to promises of the "30 magic words" that he would utter Tuesday in Congress and to his "commitment to two states." Netanyahu does not want a Palestinian state, period. The new world envisioned by Obama has no place for endless military occupation, for scenes like Operation Cast Lead, for shooting at protesters and for checkpoints. There is no agreement without a Palestinian state, and there is no Palestinian state without the 1967 borders. Netanyahu's harsh "no," which is Israel's harsh "no," will resound to the ends of the earth. And if that were not enough, another consensual lie has been revealed: Israel is not a true friend of the United States. This is not how a friend behaves, certainly not one so dependent on the other. http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/netanyahu-has-invited-america-to-punish-israel-1.363226 So, Obama's plan ...cede the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to the new country of Palestine. Israel will keep some land and existing settlements in the West Bank in exchange for the borderlands along the Jordan River from Galilee southward to the Red Sea and along the Egyptian border northward to Gaza. This will create the Palestinian border with Jordan and Egypt and it will result in Israel sharing a border only with Palestine, Lebanon (and the Golan Heights which was not mentioned in Obama's proposal). Israel will also lose direct access to the Gulf of Aqaba and the Red Sea. Obama does say in the speech that this will not resolve two other sticking points, Jerusalem and the so-called "right of return". Of course, they can resolve these matters peacefully through diplomacy once "Palestine" is established. It's all sunshine and lollipops from then on. I do see an advantage for Israel with this deal ...there would now exist two sovereign countries and any attacks originating from either country against the other could be could be considered an act of war under rules which are pretty much accepted by the rest of the world and the attackee can retaliate against the attacker (and its providers) without having to listen to the world's whiners piss and moan (too much). There would be no need to show much restraint in retaliation against aggression. Palestine will inherit some responsibility along with their newly-gained sovereign rights. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ECVZZ 0 #142 May 22, 2011 Quotebackground material regards the israeli response the last time peace was within striking distance... Unfortunate choice of words given the current debate. Allow me to complete your sentence. the last time peace was within striking distance... Hamas launched a rocket at it, then sent a suicide bomber to a crowded mall to complete the job. There is a striking correlation here that is being overlooked. The US took much of the South West from Mexico by military force. Does this mean that we should tolerate frequent rocket attacks and suicide bombings from across the border? Should we return the land so that the "victims" of our policy of aggression can be allowed to enhance their military position? Keep in mind that much of California would need to be returned in order to "right the wrong". In military strategy, an "L" shaped ambush is one of the most effective there is for ground forces. We would be giving Mexico exactly that. Should the US return the land, or should Israel not? We don't even get the rocket and suicide bomber attacks- Just drugs and drug related violence. Why is there no great outcry to return land to Mexico then? The US embraced "Manifest Destiny" as justification for our actions, while Israel has acted in the interest of self preservation. Had they used US policy we wouldn't be having this discussion now. Israel would have simply swept the area they wanted and installed hard borders. ETA: Obama should get his own house in order before he starts lecturing other countries. G. Jones "I've never been quarantined. But the more I look around, the more I think it might not be a bad idea." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #143 May 22, 2011 Quote do see an advantage for Israel with this deal ...there would now exist two sovereign countries and any attacks originating from either country against the other could be could be considered an act of war under rules which are pretty much accepted by the rest of the world and the attackee can retaliate against the attacker (and its providers) without having to listen to the world's whiners piss and moan (too much). Maybe in theory. Lebanon is a sovereign country, Israel was attacked repeatedly by Hezbollah from Lebanon (not to mention its also a part of the government) yet when Israel responded, it was condemned, as always... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #144 May 22, 2011 QuoteAnd I suspect most Palestinians were never taught to hate Israelis. But the exceptions to that are much more newsworthy as well. You need to distinguish between the exception and the rule. The rule, for me is what exists in the official school books and on TV (especially government backed TV) some of the things you find in Palestinian (and other Arab) school books are chilling, bordering in outright antisemitism. Not to mention the glorification of suicide bombers and death. note, I'm not talking about presenting a different point of view and narrative. I'm talking about things like: "Treachery and disloyalty are character traits of the Jews and one should be aware of them". An Islamic high school text that warns students to be wary of Jews as they are "…deceitful and disloyal." Another textbook stated that European anti-Semitism was caused by Jewish greed and fanaticism." "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #145 May 22, 2011 Quote Quote do see an advantage for Israel with this deal ...there would now exist two sovereign countries and any attacks originating from either country against the other could be could be considered an act of war under rules which are pretty much accepted by the rest of the world and the attackee can retaliate against the attacker (and its providers) without having to listen to the world's whiners piss and moan (too much). Maybe in theory. Lebanon is a sovereign country, Israel was attacked repeatedly by Hezbollah from Lebanon (not to mention its also a part of the government) yet when Israel responded, it was condemned, as always... Yes, the little Israeli girls were writing on shells that were meant for these guys, not Palestinians. But even attacks from Lebanon are still being carried out against Israel while using their claimed support for the Palestinians as "justification" even though they, as a nation, have no dog in that fight. Israel showed great restraint (as requested by its "allies") in retaliation for the rocket attacks by Hezbollah. Once Palestine is brought into existence that excuse evaporates and Lebanon (Syria) and Hezbollah (Iran) would also be put on notice. The real objective of 60+ years of aggression towards Israel would be revealed because my bet is that the violence would not cease. Edit to add: ...but there is a new problem for Israel. The Islamic nations are in the process of aligning with Russia or China and there may be some treaties in the process of being worked out that may not bode well for Israel or its ability to defend itself. The "Arab Spring" countries are also "loose cannons" right now and it remains to be seen where their heads are ...or will be. Lemme guess Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #146 May 22, 2011 Quote Quote Quote the important question - rather than attacking me with the old when did you stop beating your wife question - is when will the israelis come to their senses and realise that the 1967 borders are the only defensible solution for them... OK, last time ...Someone help me understand how returning to the 1967 borders is the solution for finally achieving peace in the region when prior to 1967 those very same borders were completely unacceptable. it's 40 years later and the israelis have won. now it's time to make peace if they won, why are they the ones that have to make all the concessions? And how is asking to explain the point of your repost at all akin to beating your wife? It was a simple question. I think raising the point has merit, though not in the same way you implied. It's the other side that has a history of killing its own for giving in to the enemy. Hamas more recently, and of course Saddat longer ago. That's the problem that Israel faces - they can make a deal with one opposition leader and he may not be around next year to live up to the terms. So wtf would Israel take such a gamble? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #147 May 22, 2011 >The rule, for me is what exists in the official school books and on TV >(especially government backed TV) Well, let's see: There is a (government run) hotline in Petah Tikva to let concerned citizens report any woman who dates an Arab man. The schools of Kiryat Gat warn their students against dating Arabs. A recent anti-Arab demonstration was held in 2010, with one of the organizers stating "the public is tired of so many Arabs going out with Jewish girls." After the demonstration a rabbi commented "there are quite a few Arab workers who use Hebrew names. . . Don't date them, don't work where they work and don't perform National Service with them." A 2007 study concluded "Over two-thirds Israeli teens believe Arabs to be less intelligent, uncultured and violent. Over a third of Israeli teens fear Arabs all together." . . ."50% of Israelis said they would not live in the same building as Arabs, will not befriend, or let their children befriend Arabs and would not let Arabs into their homes." If you had an axe to grind, you could use the above to claim that Israelis are racists who hate Arabs. But that would be as silly as using similar examples to claim that Arabs are racists who hate Israelis. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #148 May 22, 2011 Again, you're confusing personal views and even protests with official curriculum and programming in the state owned media. the specific incidents you mentioned are mostly the result of local tensions in mixed areas within Israel and are local initiative. None of these make me proud but they are definitely not found in official school books or TV. Are you surprised that 2/3 of Israelis think that Arabs are violent? decades of violence will do that... Lack of trust is one of the main issues. unless you change the school books and official media, it will be impossible to build trust O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #149 May 23, 2011 QuoteQuotebackground material regards the israeli response the last time peace was within striking distance... Unfortunate choice of words given the current debate. Allow me to complete your sentence. the last time peace was within striking distance... Hamas launched a rocket at it, then sent a suicide bomber to a crowded mall to complete the job. and an israeli terrorist assassinated his own prime minister...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #150 May 23, 2011 any link to your quotes?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
