kelpdiver 2 #201 May 24, 2011 Quote Lobbyists run our country. though fashionable to say, it's a load of crap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #202 May 24, 2011 Quote Problem with arguments like in this thread are that there is disagreement as to whether the lands acquired in the 1967 war now belong to Israel or not. Some of us believe they were forfeited by aggressors by something like a "right of conquest" and others believe that they were acquired through illegal expansionism. Obviously, I think they were parts of ...and were lost in battle by Jordan, Syria and Egypt and never were part of any sovereign "Palestine" (other than the "British Mandate of Palestine" which also includes the current Jordan). Others believe they were the homeland for the Palestinian people and were taken unjustly and possibly by design by Israel (without regard to the fact that Jordan, Syria and Egypt never saw fit to offer the lands to the Palestinian people for an autonomous homeland). So we'll have to disagree there. As far as Sharon's position, I'm sure that there are varied views by Israel's leaders on the subject just as there are 2 or 3 different positions on issues by politicians in this country. I appreciate the honesty and clarification. We'll have to disagree. I tend to take the view of the UN and the application of the Geneva Conventions. I also think that the Geneva Initiative is a good start for a resolution. Right now defensive lines are being drawn and I only can hope that cooler heads prevail. If Obama does nothing else other than to bring this debate back into the spotlight for some extended and honest dialog then I think he's done well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #203 May 24, 2011 QuoteQuote Lobbyists run our country. though fashionable to say, it's a load of crap. They finance our elections. They dominate our airwaves from within and without. Not only do they influence our legislators they actually write much of our legislation. There is a revolving door between legislators, government appointees and lobbying firms. They also deserve their own thread though. Looks like another "agree to disagree" situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #204 May 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote for a country their size, it only takes about 2 nukes to end their existence in any meaningful way. Iran, who is rather open about their wish to end Israel's existence and funds the war against it, is quite eager to get nukes. Both statements are accurate. However stealing additional land in the West Bank won't protect Israel from a nuclear weapon (leave that to the US). But ceasing the expansion of Israel and working towards a mutually agreed upon border will go a long way towards defusing hostilities. We've allowed Israel to effectively expand its borders. We've said for decades that it should stop but we haven't had a President who didn't say it with a wink and a nod. I'd like to think that the current one is serious. However he's let me down before. Lobbyists are a bitch. Since the 1967 war Israel has returned all but the West Bank and the Golan Heights. It appears that they stopped their "expansion" on the 6th day of the war and since then have, in good faith, returned the Sinai Peninsula and Gaza ...a large part of the lands that were provided by three foreign countries to build up and prepare for a massive invasion against Israel and its Jewish and Arab citizens under the pretense that they were fighting for the freedom of the Palestinian people. There is zero evidence that Israel is planning any further expansion. Never happened before 1967 and hasn't happened since. Jordan, Syria, Egypt (and maybe a few other Arab countries) should use a smidgen of there vast wealth and throw a few crumbs to their Palestinian prisoners living in squalid conditions in the many concentration camps in their countries. If the A Rab countries gave a shit abou the "Palistinians" they would have given them the land that was confiscated and the possesions of the Saphardic Jews across the Middle East who were driven from their homes by those same counties.. LEAVE or DIE...The amount of the Land that was stolen from them was far more than what the Israelis managed to "occupy" and is the future Palistine on the West Bank and Gaza. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #205 May 24, 2011 ultimately, legislatures and elected governors/presidents make decisions, and the voters evaluate them for it. Saying we're all incapable of doing this is a bit fatalistic. Or merely elitist. Lobbyists write a lot of legislation because they are the experts on that subject. That doesn't have to be a bad thing. "Lobbyist" and "special interest group" have negative connotations, but if the legislators and voters aren't lazy and just accept their proposal as is, they are an asset, not a liability. The NRA (or even the Brady fucks) are more knowledgeable about the issues around gun regulation than most politicians can ever hope to be. These are single topic groups, so they can specialize. Same with the Sierra Club on preservation matters, or the oil industry (gasp) on offshore drilling. You have to measure their agenda versus the country's best interests, and move forward. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muff528 3 #206 May 24, 2011 Quote...... If the A Rab countries gave a shit abou the "Palistinians" they would have given them the land that was confiscated and the possesions of the Saphardic Jews across the Middle East who were driven from their homes by those same counties.. LEAVE or DIE...The amount of the Land that was stolen from them was far more than what the Israelis managed to "occupy" and is the future Palistine on the West Bank and Gaza. It is just baffling to me. Setting aside all other issues (questions of land, settlements, sovereignty, etc.) I just can't see how the Arabs get a pass by the UN and the rest of the world for their barbaric treatment of the "refugees" and Israel gets condemnation. I know that some folks put at least some faith in the UN but I have no respect for them and their convoluted machinations whatsoever (probably shows). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites falxori 0 #207 May 24, 2011 QuoteIt is just baffling to me. Setting aside all other issues (questions of land, settlements, sovereignty, etc.) I just can't see how the Arabs get a pass by the UN and the rest of the world for their barbaric treatment of the "refugees" and Israel gets condemnation. When there are 25+ Arab countries and 50+ Muslim countries, you have a majority for anything... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wsd 0 #208 May 24, 2011 Quote Problem with arguments like in this thread are that there is disagreement as to whether the lands acquired in the 1967 war now belong to Israel or not. Some of us believe they were forfeited by aggressors by something like a "right of conquest" and others believe that they were acquired through illegal expansionism. Obviously, I think they were parts of ...and were lost in battle by Jordan, Syria and Egypt and never were part of any sovereign "Palestine" (other than the "British Mandate of Palestine" which also includes the current Jordan). Others believe they were the homeland for the Palestinian people and were taken unjustly and possibly by design by Israel (without regard to the fact that Jordan, Syria and Egypt never saw fit to offer the lands to the Palestinian people for an autonomous homeland). So we'll have to disagree there. As far as Sharon's position, I'm sure that there are varied views by Israel's leaders on the subject just as there are 2 or 3 different positions on issues by politicians in this country. Seems you have it right, unfortunately Dream Dancer cannot understand reality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tonyhays 86 #209 May 24, 2011 ssssshhhh.....wait for the 'alternet' or 'hazeernet'......whatever....reply!!!!“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tonyhays 86 #210 May 24, 2011 Quote though fashionable to say, it's a load of crap Hey....This is earth...not whatever planet you are living on!!!!“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #211 May 24, 2011 QuoteQuote though fashionable to say, it's a load of crap Hey....This is earth...not whatever planet you are living on!!!! it's the objective, educated part of earth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites deltron80 0 #212 May 24, 2011 QuoteQuote Israel is far from on the verge of being pushed into the sea. As you yourself pointed out they are very militarized and are the most powerful country in the region. You can stop worrying about them! for a country their size, it only takes about 2 nukes to end their existence in any meaningful way. Iran, who is rather open about their wish to end Israel's existence and funds the war against it, is quite eager to get nukes. Would they be the first nation to use nukes since 1945? Unlikely. But if you're Israel, you hardly want to trust your continued existence to conventional political science game theory on the use of force. The US is in a different ballpark, with the benefit of size and large oceans separating us from all but a few nations. Israel has no reason to cry about potential nuclear attacks. They are the ones who started the nuclear arms race in the region and I am sure they are prepared to finish it. Oh and by the way...for those of you who have taken up the cause of whining about "foreign aid," Israel is the biggest recipient of US foreign aid besides the countries we invade. If we're cutting back on foreign aid let's start here. They can take care of themselves...they do have nukes after all! http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2011/tables/11s1298.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #213 May 24, 2011 QuoteQuote Problem with arguments like in this thread are that there is disagreement as to whether the lands acquired in the 1967 war now belong to Israel or not. Some of us believe they were forfeited by aggressors by something like a "right of conquest" and others believe that they were acquired through illegal expansionism. Obviously, I think they were parts of ...and were lost in battle by Jordan, Syria and Egypt and never were part of any sovereign "Palestine" (other than the "British Mandate of Palestine" which also includes the current Jordan). Others believe they were the homeland for the Palestinian people and were taken unjustly and possibly by design by Israel (without regard to the fact that Jordan, Syria and Egypt never saw fit to offer the lands to the Palestinian people for an autonomous homeland). So we'll have to disagree there. As far as Sharon's position, I'm sure that there are varied views by Israel's leaders on the subject just as there are 2 or 3 different positions on issues by politicians in this country. Seems you have it right, unfortunately Dream Dancer cannot understand reality. For some of us the notion that Israel has "won" the West Bank and Gaza through a "right of conquest" is difficult to understand given that neither Israel nor the US nor any other country officially makes that claim. That notion is used simply as a justification for "natural growth" (illegal under the Geneva Conventions) into areas that do not belong to Israel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuteless 1 #214 May 24, 2011 Well, Ive been away for a few days, still mending the heart and all its bypasses. I also use the Library'c computers, and they have been closed for a holiday. Nevertheless, I think Israel should push the Arabs very hard, until they stop moving at the door to Saudi Arabia. Then we could see just how much the Saudis want the Palestinians for their neighbours. Give the palestinians to Jordan...maybe Syria or Libya. They all have lots of empty land....let the Palestinians build their settlements in those countries, and then give them a new name andmaybe they'll leave Israel alone in the land that has been their for thousands of years. The Palestinian Charter actually reads they would like to push all Israelis into the Mediterranean Sea, so that doesnt leave the PLO and its terrorist organizations much room to move in a legitimate manner. There will be absolutely NO peace in the middle east, because the Palestinians will only take what land Israel would give up for peace, and then want more....MORE....MORE Its too bad Israel Sharon is in a coma, because it would take a lion hearted man like him to resolve , and I believe that Netanyahu is weak, and being weakened more by the United States and Britain. Whether any of you know it or not, Israel's lost tribes are in truth, America ( Manasseh ), and Britain ( Ephriam ), and other tribes of Israelis live throughout Europe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #215 May 24, 2011 Quote Israel has no reason to cry about potential nuclear attacks. They are the ones who started the nuclear arms race in the region and I am sure they are prepared to finish it. 1973 reasons come to mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muff528 3 #216 May 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote Problem with arguments like in this thread are that there is disagreement as to whether the lands acquired in the 1967 war now belong to Israel or not. Some of us believe they were forfeited by aggressors by something like a "right of conquest" and others believe that they were acquired through illegal expansionism. Obviously, I think they were parts of ...and were lost in battle by Jordan, Syria and Egypt and never were part of any sovereign "Palestine" (other than the "British Mandate of Palestine" which also includes the current Jordan). Others believe they were the homeland for the Palestinian people and were taken unjustly and possibly by design by Israel (without regard to the fact that Jordan, Syria and Egypt never saw fit to offer the lands to the Palestinian people for an autonomous homeland). So we'll have to disagree there. As far as Sharon's position, I'm sure that there are varied views by Israel's leaders on the subject just as there are 2 or 3 different positions on issues by politicians in this country. Seems you have it right, unfortunately Dream Dancer cannot understand reality. For some of us the notion that Israel has "won" the West Bank and Gaza through a "right of conquest" is difficult to understand given that neither Israel nor the US nor any other country officially makes that claim. That notion is used simply as a justification for "natural growth" (illegal under the Geneva Conventions) into areas that do not belong to Israel. Normally I would agree. The term "right of conquest" was a poor choice of words and wrongly conveys what I meant and maybe implies that I think Israel engaged in an adventurous campaign for the purpose of taking land. I don't believe that happened or was intended at all. Israel responded to a massive military buildup by multiple countries who had already declared, and had previously demonstrated, their malevolent intentions towards Israel. I don't buy the "first strike" argument for the 1967 war since that was just the latest event in a war that had been going on since at least 1948. Same war, same enemies ...and continuing even to the present day. Israel did what they had to do to ensure their survival at that moment. IMO these countries "forfeited" their rights to that land by their act of aggression. Keep in mind that this was not a 3rd party, "caught-in-the-middle" country of Palestine. These lands were parts of the 3 attacking countries. Unless someone can prove that "conquest" was Israel's intention in 1967 we will never agree on that point. Getting these lands was a deserved bonus for Israel. Doesn't hurt to have a little more property for settlements and strategic security, even if that wasn't the original intention. I am really more interested in opinions about treatment of Palestinians by Arabs. For starters: (1) Why did Egypt and Jordon not provide these same lands to the Palestinian people for a homeland prior to 1967 ...and why do they now demand that these lands should be the Palestinian homeland? (2) Why are hundreds of thousands of Palestinian people gathered in internment camps in the Arab countries, denied citizenship, and not allowed to assimilate into their populations? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #217 May 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Problem with arguments like in this thread are that there is disagreement as to whether the lands acquired in the 1967 war now belong to Israel or not. Some of us believe they were forfeited by aggressors by something like a "right of conquest" and others believe that they were acquired through illegal expansionism. Obviously, I think they were parts of ...and were lost in battle by Jordan, Syria and Egypt and never were part of any sovereign "Palestine" (other than the "British Mandate of Palestine" which also includes the current Jordan). Others believe they were the homeland for the Palestinian people and were taken unjustly and possibly by design by Israel (without regard to the fact that Jordan, Syria and Egypt never saw fit to offer the lands to the Palestinian people for an autonomous homeland). So we'll have to disagree there. As far as Sharon's position, I'm sure that there are varied views by Israel's leaders on the subject just as there are 2 or 3 different positions on issues by politicians in this country. Seems you have it right, unfortunately Dream Dancer cannot understand reality. For some of us the notion that Israel has "won" the West Bank and Gaza through a "right of conquest" is difficult to understand given that neither Israel nor the US nor any other country officially makes that claim. That notion is used simply as a justification for "natural growth" (illegal under the Geneva Conventions) into areas that do not belong to Israel. Normally I would agree. The term "right of conquest" was a poor choice of words and wrongly conveys what I meant and maybe implies that I think Israel engaged in an adventurous campaign for the purpose of taking land. I don't believe that happened or was intended at all. Israel responded to a massive military buildup by multiple countries who had already declared, and had previously demonstrated, their malevolent intentions towards Israel. I don't buy the "first strike" argument for the 1967 war since that was just the latest event in a war that had been going on since at least 1948. Same war, same enemies ...and continuing even to the present day. Israel did what they had to do to ensure their survival at that moment. IMO these countries "forfeited" their rights to that land by their act of aggression. Keep in mind that this was not a 3rd party, "caught-in-the-middle" country of Palestine. These lands were parts of the 3 attacking countries. Unless someone can prove that "conquest" was Israel's intention in 1967 we will never agree on that point. Getting these lands was a deserved bonus for Israel. Doesn't hurt to have a little more property for settlements and strategic security, even if that wasn't the original intention. I am really more interested in opinions about treatment of Palestinians by Arabs. For starters: (1) Why did Egypt and Jordon not provide these same lands to the Palestinian people for a homeland prior to 1967 ...and why do they now demand that these lands should be the Palestinian homeland? (2) Why are hundreds of thousands of Palestinian people gathered in internment camps in the Arab countries, denied citizenship, and not allowed to assimilate into their populations? OR.. given the lands and possessions that were stolen from many THOUSANDS of Jews who were driven from their homes and their LANDS as they lost everything in all of those wonderful A Rab countries across the Middle East. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muff528 3 #218 May 25, 2011 Quote.... OR.. given the lands and possessions that were stolen from many THOUSANDS of Jews who were driven from their homes and their LANDS as they lost everything in all of those wonderful A Rab countries across the Middle East. You do understand that you will never get a response that even so much as acknowledges that that ever happened. If it were mentioned there would just be some mumbling about how the Jews brought it on themselves ...same story we heard from their allies in Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #219 May 25, 2011 QuoteQuote.... OR.. given the lands and possessions that were stolen from many THOUSANDS of Jews who were driven from their homes and their LANDS as they lost everything in all of those wonderful A Rab countries across the Middle East. You do understand that you will never get a response that even so much as acknowledges that that ever happened. If it were mentioned there would just be some mumbling about how the Jews brought it on themselves ...same story we heard from their allies in Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries. Yeah but I do love bringing up all that heaping mound of hypocrisy that the idjits seem to ignore while they whine on and on about Israel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #220 May 25, 2011 QuoteQuote.... OR.. given the lands and possessions that were stolen from many THOUSANDS of Jews who were driven from their homes and their LANDS as they lost everything in all of those wonderful A Rab countries across the Middle East. You do understand that you will never get a response that even so much as acknowledges that that ever happened. If it were mentioned there would just be some mumbling about how the Jews brought it on themselves ...same story we heard from their allies in Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries. so palestinians have to pay for the european holocaust - oddstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #221 May 25, 2011 Quote Quote Quote .... OR.. given the lands and possessions that were stolen from many THOUSANDS of Jews who were driven from their homes and their LANDS as they lost everything in all of those wonderful A Rab countries across the Middle East. You do understand that you will never get a response that even so much as acknowledges that that ever happened. If it were mentioned there would just be some mumbling about how the Jews brought it on themselves ...same story we heard from their allies in Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries. Yeah but I do love bringing up all that heaping mound of hypocrisy that the idjits seem to ignore while they whine on and on about Israel. still whining about the second world war i see - that classes you as an idjit stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #222 May 25, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote .... OR.. given the lands and possessions that were stolen from many THOUSANDS of Jews who were driven from their homes and their LANDS as they lost everything in all of those wonderful A Rab countries across the Middle East. You do understand that you will never get a response that even so much as acknowledges that that ever happened. If it were mentioned there would just be some mumbling about how the Jews brought it on themselves ...same story we heard from their allies in Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries. Yeah but I do love bringing up all that heaping mound of hypocrisy that the idjits seem to ignore while they whine on and on about Israel. still whining about the second world war i see - that classes you as an idjit I get the distinct impression that you did not do very well in your local school system did you? Perhaps some remedial reading with a focus on history from some source that is based in reality is in your future.... NAH... never happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #223 May 25, 2011 i get the distinct impression you're living half a century in the past - join the rest of us in the twenty first century stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muff528 3 #224 May 25, 2011 See? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites muff528 3 #225 May 25, 2011 Quote i get the distinct impression you're living half a century in the past - join the rest of us in the twenty first century ditto back atcha Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Next Page 9 of 19 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
kelpdiver 2 #205 May 24, 2011 ultimately, legislatures and elected governors/presidents make decisions, and the voters evaluate them for it. Saying we're all incapable of doing this is a bit fatalistic. Or merely elitist. Lobbyists write a lot of legislation because they are the experts on that subject. That doesn't have to be a bad thing. "Lobbyist" and "special interest group" have negative connotations, but if the legislators and voters aren't lazy and just accept their proposal as is, they are an asset, not a liability. The NRA (or even the Brady fucks) are more knowledgeable about the issues around gun regulation than most politicians can ever hope to be. These are single topic groups, so they can specialize. Same with the Sierra Club on preservation matters, or the oil industry (gasp) on offshore drilling. You have to measure their agenda versus the country's best interests, and move forward. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #206 May 24, 2011 Quote...... If the A Rab countries gave a shit abou the "Palistinians" they would have given them the land that was confiscated and the possesions of the Saphardic Jews across the Middle East who were driven from their homes by those same counties.. LEAVE or DIE...The amount of the Land that was stolen from them was far more than what the Israelis managed to "occupy" and is the future Palistine on the West Bank and Gaza. It is just baffling to me. Setting aside all other issues (questions of land, settlements, sovereignty, etc.) I just can't see how the Arabs get a pass by the UN and the rest of the world for their barbaric treatment of the "refugees" and Israel gets condemnation. I know that some folks put at least some faith in the UN but I have no respect for them and their convoluted machinations whatsoever (probably shows). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #207 May 24, 2011 QuoteIt is just baffling to me. Setting aside all other issues (questions of land, settlements, sovereignty, etc.) I just can't see how the Arabs get a pass by the UN and the rest of the world for their barbaric treatment of the "refugees" and Israel gets condemnation. When there are 25+ Arab countries and 50+ Muslim countries, you have a majority for anything... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wsd 0 #208 May 24, 2011 Quote Problem with arguments like in this thread are that there is disagreement as to whether the lands acquired in the 1967 war now belong to Israel or not. Some of us believe they were forfeited by aggressors by something like a "right of conquest" and others believe that they were acquired through illegal expansionism. Obviously, I think they were parts of ...and were lost in battle by Jordan, Syria and Egypt and never were part of any sovereign "Palestine" (other than the "British Mandate of Palestine" which also includes the current Jordan). Others believe they were the homeland for the Palestinian people and were taken unjustly and possibly by design by Israel (without regard to the fact that Jordan, Syria and Egypt never saw fit to offer the lands to the Palestinian people for an autonomous homeland). So we'll have to disagree there. As far as Sharon's position, I'm sure that there are varied views by Israel's leaders on the subject just as there are 2 or 3 different positions on issues by politicians in this country. Seems you have it right, unfortunately Dream Dancer cannot understand reality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonyhays 86 #209 May 24, 2011 ssssshhhh.....wait for the 'alternet' or 'hazeernet'......whatever....reply!!!!“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonyhays 86 #210 May 24, 2011 Quote though fashionable to say, it's a load of crap Hey....This is earth...not whatever planet you are living on!!!!“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #211 May 24, 2011 QuoteQuote though fashionable to say, it's a load of crap Hey....This is earth...not whatever planet you are living on!!!! it's the objective, educated part of earth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deltron80 0 #212 May 24, 2011 QuoteQuote Israel is far from on the verge of being pushed into the sea. As you yourself pointed out they are very militarized and are the most powerful country in the region. You can stop worrying about them! for a country their size, it only takes about 2 nukes to end their existence in any meaningful way. Iran, who is rather open about their wish to end Israel's existence and funds the war against it, is quite eager to get nukes. Would they be the first nation to use nukes since 1945? Unlikely. But if you're Israel, you hardly want to trust your continued existence to conventional political science game theory on the use of force. The US is in a different ballpark, with the benefit of size and large oceans separating us from all but a few nations. Israel has no reason to cry about potential nuclear attacks. They are the ones who started the nuclear arms race in the region and I am sure they are prepared to finish it. Oh and by the way...for those of you who have taken up the cause of whining about "foreign aid," Israel is the biggest recipient of US foreign aid besides the countries we invade. If we're cutting back on foreign aid let's start here. They can take care of themselves...they do have nukes after all! http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2011/tables/11s1298.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #213 May 24, 2011 QuoteQuote Problem with arguments like in this thread are that there is disagreement as to whether the lands acquired in the 1967 war now belong to Israel or not. Some of us believe they were forfeited by aggressors by something like a "right of conquest" and others believe that they were acquired through illegal expansionism. Obviously, I think they were parts of ...and were lost in battle by Jordan, Syria and Egypt and never were part of any sovereign "Palestine" (other than the "British Mandate of Palestine" which also includes the current Jordan). Others believe they were the homeland for the Palestinian people and were taken unjustly and possibly by design by Israel (without regard to the fact that Jordan, Syria and Egypt never saw fit to offer the lands to the Palestinian people for an autonomous homeland). So we'll have to disagree there. As far as Sharon's position, I'm sure that there are varied views by Israel's leaders on the subject just as there are 2 or 3 different positions on issues by politicians in this country. Seems you have it right, unfortunately Dream Dancer cannot understand reality. For some of us the notion that Israel has "won" the West Bank and Gaza through a "right of conquest" is difficult to understand given that neither Israel nor the US nor any other country officially makes that claim. That notion is used simply as a justification for "natural growth" (illegal under the Geneva Conventions) into areas that do not belong to Israel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #214 May 24, 2011 Well, Ive been away for a few days, still mending the heart and all its bypasses. I also use the Library'c computers, and they have been closed for a holiday. Nevertheless, I think Israel should push the Arabs very hard, until they stop moving at the door to Saudi Arabia. Then we could see just how much the Saudis want the Palestinians for their neighbours. Give the palestinians to Jordan...maybe Syria or Libya. They all have lots of empty land....let the Palestinians build their settlements in those countries, and then give them a new name andmaybe they'll leave Israel alone in the land that has been their for thousands of years. The Palestinian Charter actually reads they would like to push all Israelis into the Mediterranean Sea, so that doesnt leave the PLO and its terrorist organizations much room to move in a legitimate manner. There will be absolutely NO peace in the middle east, because the Palestinians will only take what land Israel would give up for peace, and then want more....MORE....MORE Its too bad Israel Sharon is in a coma, because it would take a lion hearted man like him to resolve , and I believe that Netanyahu is weak, and being weakened more by the United States and Britain. Whether any of you know it or not, Israel's lost tribes are in truth, America ( Manasseh ), and Britain ( Ephriam ), and other tribes of Israelis live throughout Europe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #215 May 24, 2011 Quote Israel has no reason to cry about potential nuclear attacks. They are the ones who started the nuclear arms race in the region and I am sure they are prepared to finish it. 1973 reasons come to mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #216 May 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote Problem with arguments like in this thread are that there is disagreement as to whether the lands acquired in the 1967 war now belong to Israel or not. Some of us believe they were forfeited by aggressors by something like a "right of conquest" and others believe that they were acquired through illegal expansionism. Obviously, I think they were parts of ...and were lost in battle by Jordan, Syria and Egypt and never were part of any sovereign "Palestine" (other than the "British Mandate of Palestine" which also includes the current Jordan). Others believe they were the homeland for the Palestinian people and were taken unjustly and possibly by design by Israel (without regard to the fact that Jordan, Syria and Egypt never saw fit to offer the lands to the Palestinian people for an autonomous homeland). So we'll have to disagree there. As far as Sharon's position, I'm sure that there are varied views by Israel's leaders on the subject just as there are 2 or 3 different positions on issues by politicians in this country. Seems you have it right, unfortunately Dream Dancer cannot understand reality. For some of us the notion that Israel has "won" the West Bank and Gaza through a "right of conquest" is difficult to understand given that neither Israel nor the US nor any other country officially makes that claim. That notion is used simply as a justification for "natural growth" (illegal under the Geneva Conventions) into areas that do not belong to Israel. Normally I would agree. The term "right of conquest" was a poor choice of words and wrongly conveys what I meant and maybe implies that I think Israel engaged in an adventurous campaign for the purpose of taking land. I don't believe that happened or was intended at all. Israel responded to a massive military buildup by multiple countries who had already declared, and had previously demonstrated, their malevolent intentions towards Israel. I don't buy the "first strike" argument for the 1967 war since that was just the latest event in a war that had been going on since at least 1948. Same war, same enemies ...and continuing even to the present day. Israel did what they had to do to ensure their survival at that moment. IMO these countries "forfeited" their rights to that land by their act of aggression. Keep in mind that this was not a 3rd party, "caught-in-the-middle" country of Palestine. These lands were parts of the 3 attacking countries. Unless someone can prove that "conquest" was Israel's intention in 1967 we will never agree on that point. Getting these lands was a deserved bonus for Israel. Doesn't hurt to have a little more property for settlements and strategic security, even if that wasn't the original intention. I am really more interested in opinions about treatment of Palestinians by Arabs. For starters: (1) Why did Egypt and Jordon not provide these same lands to the Palestinian people for a homeland prior to 1967 ...and why do they now demand that these lands should be the Palestinian homeland? (2) Why are hundreds of thousands of Palestinian people gathered in internment camps in the Arab countries, denied citizenship, and not allowed to assimilate into their populations? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #217 May 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Problem with arguments like in this thread are that there is disagreement as to whether the lands acquired in the 1967 war now belong to Israel or not. Some of us believe they were forfeited by aggressors by something like a "right of conquest" and others believe that they were acquired through illegal expansionism. Obviously, I think they were parts of ...and were lost in battle by Jordan, Syria and Egypt and never were part of any sovereign "Palestine" (other than the "British Mandate of Palestine" which also includes the current Jordan). Others believe they were the homeland for the Palestinian people and were taken unjustly and possibly by design by Israel (without regard to the fact that Jordan, Syria and Egypt never saw fit to offer the lands to the Palestinian people for an autonomous homeland). So we'll have to disagree there. As far as Sharon's position, I'm sure that there are varied views by Israel's leaders on the subject just as there are 2 or 3 different positions on issues by politicians in this country. Seems you have it right, unfortunately Dream Dancer cannot understand reality. For some of us the notion that Israel has "won" the West Bank and Gaza through a "right of conquest" is difficult to understand given that neither Israel nor the US nor any other country officially makes that claim. That notion is used simply as a justification for "natural growth" (illegal under the Geneva Conventions) into areas that do not belong to Israel. Normally I would agree. The term "right of conquest" was a poor choice of words and wrongly conveys what I meant and maybe implies that I think Israel engaged in an adventurous campaign for the purpose of taking land. I don't believe that happened or was intended at all. Israel responded to a massive military buildup by multiple countries who had already declared, and had previously demonstrated, their malevolent intentions towards Israel. I don't buy the "first strike" argument for the 1967 war since that was just the latest event in a war that had been going on since at least 1948. Same war, same enemies ...and continuing even to the present day. Israel did what they had to do to ensure their survival at that moment. IMO these countries "forfeited" their rights to that land by their act of aggression. Keep in mind that this was not a 3rd party, "caught-in-the-middle" country of Palestine. These lands were parts of the 3 attacking countries. Unless someone can prove that "conquest" was Israel's intention in 1967 we will never agree on that point. Getting these lands was a deserved bonus for Israel. Doesn't hurt to have a little more property for settlements and strategic security, even if that wasn't the original intention. I am really more interested in opinions about treatment of Palestinians by Arabs. For starters: (1) Why did Egypt and Jordon not provide these same lands to the Palestinian people for a homeland prior to 1967 ...and why do they now demand that these lands should be the Palestinian homeland? (2) Why are hundreds of thousands of Palestinian people gathered in internment camps in the Arab countries, denied citizenship, and not allowed to assimilate into their populations? OR.. given the lands and possessions that were stolen from many THOUSANDS of Jews who were driven from their homes and their LANDS as they lost everything in all of those wonderful A Rab countries across the Middle East. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #218 May 25, 2011 Quote.... OR.. given the lands and possessions that were stolen from many THOUSANDS of Jews who were driven from their homes and their LANDS as they lost everything in all of those wonderful A Rab countries across the Middle East. You do understand that you will never get a response that even so much as acknowledges that that ever happened. If it were mentioned there would just be some mumbling about how the Jews brought it on themselves ...same story we heard from their allies in Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #219 May 25, 2011 QuoteQuote.... OR.. given the lands and possessions that were stolen from many THOUSANDS of Jews who were driven from their homes and their LANDS as they lost everything in all of those wonderful A Rab countries across the Middle East. You do understand that you will never get a response that even so much as acknowledges that that ever happened. If it were mentioned there would just be some mumbling about how the Jews brought it on themselves ...same story we heard from their allies in Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries. Yeah but I do love bringing up all that heaping mound of hypocrisy that the idjits seem to ignore while they whine on and on about Israel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #220 May 25, 2011 QuoteQuote.... OR.. given the lands and possessions that were stolen from many THOUSANDS of Jews who were driven from their homes and their LANDS as they lost everything in all of those wonderful A Rab countries across the Middle East. You do understand that you will never get a response that even so much as acknowledges that that ever happened. If it were mentioned there would just be some mumbling about how the Jews brought it on themselves ...same story we heard from their allies in Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries. so palestinians have to pay for the european holocaust - oddstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #221 May 25, 2011 Quote Quote Quote .... OR.. given the lands and possessions that were stolen from many THOUSANDS of Jews who were driven from their homes and their LANDS as they lost everything in all of those wonderful A Rab countries across the Middle East. You do understand that you will never get a response that even so much as acknowledges that that ever happened. If it were mentioned there would just be some mumbling about how the Jews brought it on themselves ...same story we heard from their allies in Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries. Yeah but I do love bringing up all that heaping mound of hypocrisy that the idjits seem to ignore while they whine on and on about Israel. still whining about the second world war i see - that classes you as an idjit stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #222 May 25, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote .... OR.. given the lands and possessions that were stolen from many THOUSANDS of Jews who were driven from their homes and their LANDS as they lost everything in all of those wonderful A Rab countries across the Middle East. You do understand that you will never get a response that even so much as acknowledges that that ever happened. If it were mentioned there would just be some mumbling about how the Jews brought it on themselves ...same story we heard from their allies in Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries. Yeah but I do love bringing up all that heaping mound of hypocrisy that the idjits seem to ignore while they whine on and on about Israel. still whining about the second world war i see - that classes you as an idjit I get the distinct impression that you did not do very well in your local school system did you? Perhaps some remedial reading with a focus on history from some source that is based in reality is in your future.... NAH... never happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #223 May 25, 2011 i get the distinct impression you're living half a century in the past - join the rest of us in the twenty first century stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #225 May 25, 2011 Quote i get the distinct impression you're living half a century in the past - join the rest of us in the twenty first century ditto back atcha Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
