muff528 3 #101 May 21, 2011 QuoteThe natural conclusion of what Israel will become is as inevitable as the continental US and its manifest destiny: Israel will eventually be a single, unified state encompassing all of the occupied territories (Golan Heights, West Bank, & Gaza Strip). They will likely also take over most of Jordan too. These are just British lines drawn on a map..they mean nothing. Whether they will grant their population rights or opt for genocide remains to be seen... Something secular (a state) cannot be based on a religion. There is no evidence to suggest that Israel has its sights on any Arab land that has not already been forfeited in the 1967 war, and in fact has returned the Sinai to Egypt (even after denying Israel access to the Suez Canal). And Israel would be foolish to give up strategic areas such as Golan Hts. which their avowed enemies have already used against them. Neither is there any evidence that Israel will threaten genocide (as their enemies have done) for its Arab inhabitants/citizens. Yes, the lines on the map throughout the Arab world are rather meaningless to the populations at large and were drawn without regard to existing tribal or cultural differences. Much like the way the Balkans were divided. Lots of problems caused that way. But, that is the result of losing wars. Still, the dividers could have used some common sense in drawing lines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #102 May 21, 2011 QuoteIn short, the hatred taught to Palistinian and other Arab children will never allow Israel to live in peace. It is much worse than the racismthat occured in the US for many years. It will take generations for it to die out and that's only if they stopped teaching it today, which won't happen. So all these dreams that if Israel would "just do this" peace would come to the ME, are nothing but delusions and could become nightmares for Israel. Yep, a rational look at the situation shows that there is no "path to peace" for Israel ...only a necessity to keep a strong defensive stance, even while the UN weenies (and now the US) are applying pressure for them to just lay down an take what they got coming. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #103 May 21, 2011 Quote....... The Israeli groups that orginally invaded Palestine were considered wanted terrorists by the West at the time, just like every person who uses violence as a means to an end should rightly be considered. The only reason the British and Americans eventually sanctioned this terrorism through the Balfour Declaration in 1917 was that they didn't want the Jews around them any more than the Nazis did. After this, Israelis became a wing of the British Miliary and their violence was institutionalized. The White Paper sanctioning immigration to Israel didn't happen until 1939 and the Brits & Americans were forced into that one because they didn't want to accept the Jews fleeing mainland Europe at the time. Try reading more factual books, less Likud propaganda. Agreement here. One of them primary reasons for relocation of European Jews to the region, and for the later formation of Israel after WW2, was the fact that none of the Western nations wanted them there (including the US.) Ships full of refugees were turned away from the US after the war. The UN just thought they could ship them off to "palestine" and wash their hands of the whole matter. "The Jewish Problem" finally solved. The new problem is that the Jewish people, once again, find themselves in an existential conflict. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #104 May 21, 2011 QuoteThe new problem is that the Jewish people, once again, find themselves in an existential conflict. same as the palestinians...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #105 May 21, 2011 QuoteIn an historic and pivotal speech before the Knesset in May 2003, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon shocked his nation by announcing that Israel would withdraw from the Gaza Strip and large parts of the West Bank to demographically defendable lines in light of forecasts that Israeli Jews would soon lose their majority west of the Jordan River. This was a striking turnabout for Sharon, who had established his reputation as a security hawk, and was widely considered to be the father of Israel's settlement movement. After decades of backing the settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, the former general was convinced that Israeli control in the disputed territories would soon force Israel to choose between its Jewish character and its vibrant democracy. Subsequent Israeli policy has been built upon the same premise. Israel's current prime minister, Ehud Olmert, continues to believe that Jews will soon be outnumbered in their own land. This has been an important rationale for the renewed land-for-peace negotiations with the Fatah-backed Palestinian Authority in which Israel is considering painful concessions that may impact its long-term security. http://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/111/defusing-the-demographic-time-bombstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #106 May 21, 2011 QuoteQuoteThe new problem is that the Jewish people, once again, find themselves in an existential conflict. same as the palestinians... Yes. Sadly, if only the outsiders had left them alone and not poisoned there minds with lies and hatred (as Gravitymaster points out, it will take generations to overcome that) there may have been a chance for them and the Jews. Now we'll never know. The meddling continues... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #107 May 21, 2011 QuoteQuoteIn an historic and pivotal speech before the Knesset in May 2003, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon shocked his nation by announcing that Israel would withdraw from the Gaza Strip and large parts of the West Bank to demographically defendable lines in light of forecasts that Israeli Jews would soon lose their majority west of the Jordan River. This was a striking turnabout for Sharon, who had established his reputation as a security hawk, and was widely considered to be the father of Israel's settlement movement. After decades of backing the settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, the former general was convinced that Israeli control in the disputed territories would soon force Israel to choose between its Jewish character and its vibrant democracy. Subsequent Israeli policy has been built upon the same premise. Israel's current prime minister, Ehud Olmert, continues to believe that Jews will soon be outnumbered in their own land. This has been an important rationale for the renewed land-for-peace negotiations with the Fatah-backed Palestinian Authority in which Israel is considering painful concessions that may impact its long-term security. http://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/111/defusing-the-demographic-time-bomb The problem is not that they are, or ever were, worried about being out-populated by their growing Arab/palestinian population, but by a growing population of militant Jew-haters. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #108 May 21, 2011 >In short, the hatred taught to Palestinian and other Arab children will >never allow Israel to live in peace. And the hatred taught to Jewish children will never allow Palestinians to live in peace. (See attached.) Someone has to break the cycle on both sides. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #109 May 21, 2011 well sharon was worried that's why he had to let gaza go...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 4 #110 May 21, 2011 Quoteopt for genocide remains to be seen Yup, exactly... the Israelis are going to commit Genocide. What a disgusting thread... you and dream make me sick! 78% of Jews voted for Obama. That number will go down by at least 10%, and he will lose Florida. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 4 #111 May 21, 2011 Niiiice! From a man with Voter's Remorse. "He Has No F**king Idea What the World Is Like" http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2011/05/rocker-gene-simmons-slams-obama-on-anti-israel-policy-he-has-fking-no-idea-what-the-world-is-like-video/ Edit to add: "Its sort of Shariah Laaaawwww" And you are sort of a Moron! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 4 #112 May 21, 2011 "Arab Spring" is a fraud - From one of your own http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/05/15/sunday/main20063017.shtml P.S.... "You heard it here first." Um, No... I didn't! You're about 4 months late. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 4 #113 May 21, 2011 Can you read Hebrew? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #114 May 21, 2011 QuoteRabin played a leading role in the signing of the Oslo Accords, which created the Palestinian National Authority and granted it partial control over parts of the Gaza Strip and West Bank. Prior to the signing of the accords, Rabin received a letter from PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat renouncing violence and officially recognizing Israel, and on the same day, 9 September 1993, Rabin sent Arafat a letter officially recognizing the PLO. After the announcement of the Oslo Accords there were many protest demonstrations in Israel objecting to the Accords. As these protests dragged on, Rabin insisted that as long as he had a majority in the Knesset he would ignore the protests and the protesters. In this context he said, "they (the protesters) can spin around and around like propellers" but he would continue on the path of the Oslo Accords. Rabin's parliamentary majority rested on non-coalition member Arab support. Rabin also denied the right of American Jews to object to his plan for peace, calling any dissent "chutzpah". After the historical handshake with Yasser Arafat, Rabin said, on behalf of the Israeli people: "We who have fought against you, the Palestinians, we say to you today, in a loud and a clear voice, enough of blood and tears ... enough!" During this term of office, Rabin also oversaw the signing of the Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace in 1994. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Rabin#Assassination_and_aftermathstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 4 #115 May 21, 2011 And what point is it you feel you have made with your Wiki post? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #116 May 21, 2011 Bill, with all due respect, I grew up in the Israeli education system and I was never taught to hate the Palestinians. These kids where visiting the troops and I agree that letting them write stuff on shells is a stupid idea but you're taking this way out of context. what's next? you'll take a picture of a kid dressed as a soldier for Purim (Jewish version of Halloween) and claim he's being trained to kill Arabs? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #117 May 21, 2011 Quote >In short, the hatred taught to Palestinian and other Arab children will >never allow Israel to live in peace. And the hatred taught to Jewish children will never allow Palestinians to live in peace. (See attached.) Someone has to break the cycle on both sides. I doubt that Israeli children would be writing on bombs destined for Hezbollah and Hamas targets if Iran, et al had kept their asses out of there. Well, at least they are writing on bombs and not wearing them. Palestinians have been offered "peace" in Israel since the beginning. Some actually live it. ...that's more than they ever got from their Arab neighbors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #118 May 22, 2011 Quote Quote >In short, the hatred taught to Palestinian and other Arab children will >never allow Israel to live in peace. And the hatred taught to Jewish children will never allow Palestinians to live in peace. (See attached.) Someone has to break the cycle on both sides. I doubt that Israeli children would be writing on bombs destined for Hezbollah and Hamas targets if Iran, et al had kept their asses out of there. Well, at least they are writing on bombs and not wearing them. they don't need to wear them as they have planes to drop them for them... (much easier)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #119 May 22, 2011 QuoteOn 4 November 1995 (12th of Heshvan on the Hebrew Calendar), Rabin was assassinated by Yigal Amir, a radical right-wing Orthodox Jew who opposed the signing of the Oslo Accords. The shooting took place in the evening as Rabin was leaving a mass rally in Tel Aviv in support of the Oslo process. Rabin was rushed to the nearby Ichilov Hospital, where he died on the operating table of blood loss and a punctured lung within 40 minutes. Amir was immediately seized by Rabin's bodyguards. He was later tried, found guilty, and sentenced to life imprisonment. After an emergency cabinet meeting, Israel's foreign minister, Shimon Peres, was appointed as acting Israeli prime minister. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Rabin#Assassination_and_aftermathstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 4 #120 May 22, 2011 Again... what point is it you feel you have made with your Wiki post? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #121 May 22, 2011 Quote Quote Quote >In short, the hatred taught to Palestinian and other Arab children will >never allow Israel to live in peace. And the hatred taught to Jewish children will never allow Palestinians to live in peace. (See attached.) Someone has to break the cycle on both sides. I doubt that Israeli children would be writing on bombs destined for Hezbollah and Hamas targets if Iran, et al had kept their asses out of there. Well, at least they are writing on bombs and not wearing them. they don't need to wear them as they have planes to drop them for them... (much easier) Ahh, yes ...that makes perfect sense. "Let's strap bombs on our children to blow up Israeli citizens in retribution for attacks by Israeli jets which are targeting military positions in retribution for rocket attacks by foreign-influenced terror organizations whom we are allowing to use our citizens as human shields so we can become even more filled with rage as our citizens are killed which, of course, further justifies the use of our kids as bombs." It is up to the Palestinian people to break that cycle by ridding themselves of Hamas and others who are not acting in the interests of the Palestinians. If not, Israel will certainly continue to strike back at the attackers ...while continuing to receive condemnation from the UN and the rest of the Jew-haters in the world. But it's probably too late for that now and Israel is now pretty much on its own. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #122 May 22, 2011 it is up to the israeli people to accept the 1967 borders and a viable, contiguous palestine stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 4 #123 May 22, 2011 QuoteAgain... what point is it you feel you have made with your Wiki post? Your Answer? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #124 May 22, 2011 background material regards the israeli response the last time peace was within striking distance...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #125 May 22, 2011 Quote it is up to the israeli people to accept the 1967 borders and a viable, contiguous palestine That has already proven to be non-workable ...in 1967. And how is this "contiguous" Palestine to be worked out. It seems that the Obama plan includes a veiled allusion that the 1967 borders are not all that Israel is to concede. I'm pretty sure that there will be no new land given up by Jordan and Egypt to create this contiguous Palestinian state. (although there may be some incentive by future radical governments of these countries to give up a little land for access into "Palestine" to the Israeli border. I just realized this. No blockades, no hiding weapons shipments, no worry about personnel and equipment movements being hindered, no interference by the UN ...Oh wait, they are not interfering now.) "...The United States believes that negotiations should result in two states, with permanent Palestinian borders with Israel, Jordan, and Egypt, and permanent Israeli borders with Palestine. We believe the borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states. The Palestinian people must have the right to govern themselves, and reach their full potential, in a sovereign and contiguous state. ..." ~ B. Obama, 2011 Also, it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to know that even if a solution is secured in this way that the new sovereign nation of "Palestine" will allow unfettered access by Islamist militant groups and make an excellent, and willing, platform for staging attacks on Israel by their avowed enemies. Israel knows that this would mean their demise. They would be out of their minds to accept this ridiculous "solution". " ...But I am also fortunate to have seen Israel from the air. On my journey that January day, I flew on an IDF helicopter to the border zone. The helicopter took us over the most troubled and dangerous areas and that narrow strip between the West Bank and the Mediterranean Sea. At that height, I could see the hills and the terrain that generations have walked across. I could truly see how close everything is and why peace through security is the only way for Israel. ... ....Just six months after I visited, Hezbollah launched four thousand rocket attacks just like the one that destroyed the home in Kiryat Shmona, .... ....It is important to remember this history—that Israel had unilaterally withdrawn from Lebanon only to have Iran supply Hezbollah with thousands of rockets. Our job is to never forget that the threat of violence is real. Our job is to renew the United States’ efforts to help Israel achieve peace with its neighbors while remaining vigilant against those who do not share this vision. ..." ~ B. Obama, 2008 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
