What does this say about your "God"?

[flashvortx 0]

Well we’re back where we started then. I began with showing that we live in a world where things need a designer, and that folks that don’t believe in a God find it ok that everything they know (outside of the universe itself) requires a designer, but the actual universe, which is much grander than anything else, just happened. I think it takes more faith to say that the universe created itself, but then everything else after that needed a designer.

If you don’t believe in faith, how can you believe in science which is dependent upon faith? Science cannot prove that something will happen in the future, only that it has happened in the past. Everything in science relies on faith that it will continue to happen that way.

[virgin-burner 1]

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Well we’re back where we started then. I began with showing that we live in a world where things need a designer, and that folks that don’t believe in a God find it ok that everything they know (outside of the universe itself) requires a designer, but the actual universe, which is much grander than anything else, just happened. I think it takes more faith to say that the universe created itself, but then everything else after that needed a designer.

If you don’t believe in faith, how can you believe in science which is dependent upon faith? Science cannot prove that something will happen in the future, only that it has happened in the past. Everything in science relies on faith that it will continue to happen that way.

seems, you have no fucking clue about science then..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[flashvortx 0]

[Quote] Exactly the same goes for God, at one point in Time God was the only rational explanation for the unexplainable.[/Quote]

The way we know the world has been changing up until now and it will continue to change. God has been constant through everything.

[Quote] Do you eat bacon, where synthetic fibres, eat cheeseburgers, work on a Saturday? If you do any of those things you either don't believe that God's word is unchangeable or are sinning and rationalising it.[/Quote]

I’m not a big fan of bacon, however, I’m currently wearing 100% polyester pants, I eat cheeseburgers, and I work whenever I have to. Using that argument shows that you don’t know the basics of the Bible, so I’ll start with the basics. Moses brought the Law of the Old Testament and Jesus came, not to abolish the Law, but to extend and fulfill it (Matt. 5:17). The Law says not to murder, but Jesus came and said not only to not murder, but not even to be angry or insult someone (Matt. 5:21). We shouldn’t only follow through on our oaths, but on our every word. When Jesus came he showed the difference between the flesh and the spirit.

“Don't you realize that nothing coming from outside and entering a man can defile him because it doesn't enter his heart but his stomach?” (Mark 7:18-19) The food laws aren’t abolished, but like a lot of the Bible, God doesn’t have the literal sense in mind, but something greater. There are other Laws to which Jesus gave a spiritual application. Instead of fulfilling our oaths, we shouldn’t need to make oaths since we should fulfill every word. We don’t rest on the seventh day because we are able to sanctify every day in the rest of Christ. We don’t need to be physically circumcised anymore because since Jesus, we have a circumcision of our hearts in Christ. We could never have been clean in the flesh, but God afforded us the opportunity, through Jesus, to be spiritually clean. We no longer offer animal sacrifices (which never meant anything to God (Ps. 51:16)). Instead, we offer ourselves as living sacrifices.

Starting at Mark 7:18, Jesus was asked about one of his parables and responded, “Are you so dull? Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him unclean? For it doesn’t go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body. What comes out of a man is what makes him unclean. For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man unclean.”

“For what the Law could not do because it was weak through the flesh, God did. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk by the flesh, but by the Spirit” (Rom. 8:3-4).

It’s not me trying to make the Bible say what I want it to say so I can eat what I want. It’s me reading the Bible and reading historical documents.

[Quote] when did the "unchanging God" turn his back on the jews of the Bible?[/Quote]

When they killed his son?

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seems, you have no fucking clue about science then..

How so?

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Yes, it is a belief. However, it is based on scientific fact. I've loved science my whole life and still enjoy learning about it and that has only strengthened my belief in God. Even with a somewhat scientific mind, God does make sense.

scientific facts!?

delusional, yes!

Come on now, That's not an argument.

[normiss 622]

Nor is your perspective.

[flashvortx 0]

[Quote]The flaw is defending an inconsistency in your own logic ("Everything does need a designer") in support of your beliefs by saying logic doesn't apply at the most fundamental level of your beliefs.[/Quote]

Everything in our universe requires a designer. I didn't mean to say absolutely everything (I corrected that in another reply). But as I've said time and time again in this thread, to a nonbeliever, the only thing that exists without a designer in our universe happens to be the most complex and amazing thing that exists (the universe). My computer needed a designer and my house needed a designer. What, from your perspective, has not required a designer (except what was created at the start of the universe). We live in a world that requires a creator for everything.

Now, for God to have created this universe, He couldn't have been part of it. Like I've said before, you have to look outside the automobile engine to find the designer. For our universe, you have to look outside of it to find the designer. Therefore, if God doesn't exist in our universe we can't apply the same rules to Him.

[kallend 1,649]

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[Quote]The flaw is defending an inconsistency in your own logic ("Everything does need a designer") in support of your beliefs by saying logic doesn't apply at the most fundamental level of your beliefs.[/Quote]

Everything in our universe requires a designer. I didn't mean to say absolutely everything (I corrected that in another reply). But as I've said time and time again in this thread, to a nonbeliever, the only thing that exists without a designer in our universe happens to be the most complex and amazing thing that exists (the universe). My computer needed a designer and my house needed a designer. What, from your perspective, has not required a designer (except what was created at the start of the universe). We live in a world that requires a creator for everything.

Now, for God to have created this universe, He couldn't have been part of it. Like I've said before, you have to look outside the automobile engine to find the designer. For our universe, you have to look outside of it to find the designer. Therefore, if God doesn't exist in our universe we can't apply the same rules to Him.

That makes more sense. The rest of your reasoning is non-sense.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ryoder 1,400]

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If you don’t believe in faith, how can you believe in science which is dependent upon faith?

Right there you proved your complete ignorance of the scientific method.
Go do some reading.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[flashvortx 0]

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I seemed to have missed this part.

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Hell is defined as a life apart from God. We are quite literally in hell right now. It's not the hell that I fear the most, but it does fit the definition.

Earlier on in this thread I think it was I pasted quotes from the bible in regards to the description of hell. I'm not sure where you get your definition of hell, but the hell as defined in the bible is more often than not referred to as a pit of flames located in the center of the earth.

Selecting parts of scripture to believe as fundamental truth (and try to force on other people) and parts to conveniently ignore is par for the course among the religious.

What parts are being conveniently ignored? I've never denied that hell is a sulfurous torture pit. The definition I gave doesn't come directly from the Bible. Rather, it is an intelligent assumption drawn from the Bible as a whole.

[flashvortx 0]

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If your imaginary god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, then he gets the blame for the bad as well as the good. Can't have it both ways...

If "We won because god was on our side!", then "We lost because Jesus made me fumble!"

God is the one behind the bad things that happen to us. But as I said earlier in the thread, “bad” isn’t exactly a negative thing. The bad things that happen to us offer us a chance to grow spiritually. One of my first posts in the thread gave James 1:2 - “Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.”

It’s like if you raised your child in a padded room with no access to the messed up things that happen to us in this world. If we don’t get hurt every once and a while and learn to overcome, how can we be mature?

[flashvortx 0]

[Quote]That makes more sense. The rest of your reasoning is non-sense. [/Quote]

Hilarity. You said nothing to attempt to prove my statements wrong. Read back through what I wrote and argue against it if you can.

[flashvortx 0]

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If you don’t believe in faith, how can you believe in science which is dependent upon faith?

Right there you proved your complete ignorance of the scientific method.
Go do some reading.

The scientific method is used to investigate, correct, or acquire. It does not and cannot predict the future. It can be used to say that water has boiled at exactly 212 F in the past, but it cannot prove that it will continue to happen in the future. Scientists rely on faith that it will continue to happen since there is no way to prove it. Science cannot prove the reliability of nature.

[Meso 38]

While I could go into another debate about relativity and space not playing by the same rules to offer a rebuttal for your statement about things not needing a creator and then needing one, I feel that if you don't catch my drift with the previous sentiments (which seems clear given you're arguing your prior point which I countered), I don't feel the need to explain it again.

What I will do though...

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The scientific method is used to investigate, correct, or acquire. It does not and cannot predict the future. It can be used to say that water has boiled at exactly 212 F in the past, but it cannot prove that it will continue to happen in the future. Scientists rely on faith that it will continue to happen since there is no way to prove it. Science cannot prove the reliability of nature.

Is address that...

You seem to have mixed up faith with logic. What you're saying is, that if I throw a ball up in the air and I expect it to fall down with the laws of gravity, I am using faith to assume that the ball will return to earth.

This is not faith, this is common sense, it's been proved to happen- sure the laws of gravity CAN change given some weird cosmic event but that doesn't make following the rules of gravity faith.

You're trying to compare physics to the existence of God, which is frankly an insult to science.

You see, the only way in which the existence of God can be compared to let's say, the laws of gravity, was in this scenario:

People notice question their origin, they propose a theory of a God. They look for evidence to support this God, they then use extremely weak evidence that could be used to support any theory of a 'higher power' (but let's go with giving them the benefit of logical thinking). So now they consider 'miracles' as evidence of God's presence, the answering of prayers etc. They then tested the existence of God by asking prayers which were answered time and time again with consistency, every time.

Only then would his existence be comparable to gravity or other physics.

Currently if we have to apply your thinking of what faith is and what science is. And have 'faith' in science... The laws of physics and gravity in this case would look like this:

Man notices apple falling from tree... He proposes that gravity exists which is why it fell. He then proceeds to hold an apple above his head and drop it for a repeated amount of times. The apple floats of 99/100 times and falls 1/100. He then continues to state that gravity exists.

^ That would make science involve 'faith'.

In science you base you need constant evidence and situations that are replicated time and time again under a set of parameters. God's so-called miracles (which can be explained by logic almost every time) don't occur whenever you call for them.

There is no constant evidence to support an existence of God, none-the-less the God depicted in the Christian bible. If he gave everyone what they prayed for, you may have a case. Instead God doesn't do that (how convenient for his followers).

And that is the difference between science and religion. Science has the proof for it's physics laws, it has a 100% conclusive result (even if it is 'the past'), religion doesn't even have that.

And all of the so-called evidence for God's existence can be used for other theories too with just as much probability. This is not true in science.

Calling the laws of physics faith is nothing short than absurd.

[steveorino 7]

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.... I just like to debate.

Okay, i don't. seems useless to me but you do bring up a point I'd like your opinion on .... (see below)

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I have no logical rebuttal to your statement so I'll use the untouchable, God works in ways your puny human mind can't understand. Got it, no points for you there. That's always the last resort for Christians who have nothing of essence to put forth....

[U]IF[/U] there was a God who created the universe and all that was in it, wouldn't human understanding pale to His? Not trying to debate nor am I offering this as a last resort argument, just wanted your input to the question if you don't mind. thanks in advance!

steveOrino

[nigel99 150]

In all honesty you are rationalising things. On one hand God is unchanging and yet your reply shows how God either made a mistake in the Old Testament and Jesus had to come and fix it, or he changed his mind.

I am now breaking one of my own rules, in that I really don't like to try and change peoples opinions and beliefs.

I actually think Jesus was a pretty cool guy. He drank, hung out with hookers, followed the beer rules (brought wine to the party) and drew the line at base jumping.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Meso 38]

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IF there was a God who created the universe and all that was in it, wouldn't human understanding pale to His? Not trying to debate nor am I offering this as a last resort argument, just wanted your input to the question if you don't mind. thanks in advance!

Yes, it likely would. But to even consider that premise you need to already make the assumption that he exists. So to use the idea that "God exists because we can't understand his plans and his nature" is no different than to say "Faeries exist because we can't understand the magical world".

It just doesn't really solve anything.

[winsor 187]

[Quote] when did the "unchanging God" turn his back on the jews of the Bible?[/Quote]

When they killed his son?

[nigel99 150]

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[Quote] when did the "unchanging God" turn his back on the jews of the Bible?[/Quote]

When they killed his son?

With all due respect, the Romans killed Cousin Jesus (assuming that's who you mean by "his son," which is a Pagan concept that Jesus would have found alien). When asked about it, the Romans said "Uh, it's the Jews' fault. They made us do it."

That you are so credulous as to accept the account of the people who sought to destroy everything Jesus stood for, usurping his legacy in the process, speaks badly for your cognitive skills.

Damn Italians - the Godfather was active even back then

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[wmw999 2,149]

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IF there was a God who created the universe and all that was in it, wouldn't human understanding pale to His? Not trying to debate nor am I offering this as a last resort argument, just wanted your input to the question if you don't mind. thanks in advance!

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Yes, it likely would. But to even consider that premise you need to already make the assumption that he exists. So to use the idea that "God exists because we can't understand his plans and his nature" is no different than to say "Faeries exist because we can't understand the magical world".

It just doesn't really solve anything.

And if you're not trying to prove to others that you have the one true faith, but instead using your faith personally, then frankly, I think that argument stands up just fine. Because you're not using it for others, but only for yourself.

Of course, since I'm on about that same page, it's pretty natural I'd identify with it.
The best part is that it's quite compatible with reality (i.e. whatever we know about science), because it doesn't require God to have specifically decided that some babies (by name) will be born with devastating birth defects, that some people (by name, again) will be evil turds, and that a tsunami will kill 250,000 people. Or anything else like that.

To me, God represents the spiritual which I don't understand and want to connect with. It could be chemicals in the brain. It could be I'm wrong. Such is life -- that's why it's called faith. It doesn't require anything of anyone but me.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[steveorino 7]

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IF there was a God who created the universe and all that was in it, wouldn't human understanding pale to His? Not trying to debate nor am I offering this as a last resort argument, just wanted your input to the question if you don't mind. thanks in advance!

Yes, it likely would. But to even consider that premise you need to already make the assumption that he exists. So to use the idea that "God exists because we can't understand his plans and his nature" is no different than to say "Faeries exist because we can't understand the magical world".

It just doesn't really solve anything.

Oh, I agree it is a terrible argument for God, but just wanted to see your take. Thanks for the input!

steveOrino

[Butters 0]

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Everything in our universe requires a designer.

Do you believe that evolution is designed?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[virgin-burner 1]

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Everything in our universe requires a designer.

Do you believe that evolution is designed?

that would contradict the concept in itself; maybe the guy you replied to has a hard time understanding this since evolution cant really be observed, but explained. that, or he is a "creationist".

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[DanG 1]

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Everything in our universe requires a designer.

Who designed the rocks I walked over this morning? Who designed the hydrogen atom? So far all you've done is given examples of man made things requiring designers. Of course they do. But the leap from, "my computer needed a designer," to, "everything in our universe needed a designer," has no basis in logic.

- Dan G

[Butters 0]

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Everything in our universe requires a designer.

Do you believe that evolution is designed?

that would contradict the concept in itself; maybe the guy you replied to has a hard time understanding this since evolution cant really be observed, but explained. that, or he is a "creationist".

It would not contradict the concept.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch