quade 3
Like it or not, I think a person would have to be pretty naive to think that in this day more isn't looked at than "just" the heroic act mentioned in the citation.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong; simply the way it is.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong; simply the way it is.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
QuoteLike it or not, I think a person would have to be pretty naive to think that in this day more isn't looked at than "just" the heroic act mentioned in the citation.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong; simply the way it is.
And I agree that they look at these sort of things, which as I said before is fucking wrong. It is also an act of cowardice by our leaders trying to hide the real warriors to improve our public image. We need to stop letting officers run the Army and start taking our advice from old crusty, bitter enlisted soldiers that resemble Clint Eastwood's character from Grand Tourino. THAT is what a soldier should be like, but maybe with a little less angry racism!
History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower
--Dwight D. Eisenhower
jgoose71 0
I think the man deserves the MoH. Being navy I can only quote the navy awards manual.
The SSgt Giunta probably wouldn't have got into any trouble for not going after his brothers in arms, but he did. He was definatly safer keeping his head down, but he didn't.
He saw his friends in trouble, and decided that he didn't care about his personal safety, he wasn't going to let things unfold the way they were going. The only difference to me between this act and jumping on a grenade is that he lived. I'm not going to hold that against him.
Quote1. Extraordinary Heroism Recommendations. Awards for
heroism approved by delegated awarding authorities shall contain
a recommendation as to the eligibility of the individuals for
the benefits of EH. The awarding authority, in recommending an
award recipient be accorded EH benefits, should compare the
act(s) with other acts of heroism, and believe that it stands
out well above ordinary acts of heroism. Therefore, individuals
must have distinguished themselves beyond those who have already
earned distinction for heroism. The following considerations
are furnished to assist in making a recommendation.
a. Individuals must have performed a worthwhile act
or an act that was considered worthwhile at the time. Needless
and foolish risking of life or tempting of fate is not
considered worthwhile.
b. The act must have been performed voluntarily.
This requirement should not be applied so strictly as to exclude
from consideration individuals, who in carrying out orders, do
more of their own volition than could ordinarily be expected
under the circumstances.
c. Whether the individual chose not to seek cover or
leave a place of comparative safety to perform the act, without
direct orders or without being forced into the more dangerous
situation by circumstances over which the individual had no
control.
d. Whether there would have been cause for censure
or blame, had the individual not performed the action(s) cited.
Individuals who failed to perform the duties expected of their
grade and experience, and for which they had been trained, might
be considered candidates for censure rather than praise.
e. The act performed by the individual must not have
been motivated solely by a desire for self-preservation.
The SSgt Giunta probably wouldn't have got into any trouble for not going after his brothers in arms, but he did. He was definatly safer keeping his head down, but he didn't.
He saw his friends in trouble, and decided that he didn't care about his personal safety, he wasn't going to let things unfold the way they were going. The only difference to me between this act and jumping on a grenade is that he lived. I'm not going to hold that against him.
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything
Life, the Universe, and Everything
billvon 2,406
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>Here's a real honest to god hero . . .
Agreed.
But not everyone sees it in the same light:
==========================
. . . . I have noticed a disturbing trend in the awarding of these medals, which few others seem to have recognized.
We have feminized the Medal of Honor.
According to Bill McGurn of the Wall Street Journal, every Medal of Honor awarded during these two conflicts has been awarded for saving life. Not one has been awarded for inflicting casualties on the enemy. Not one.
Gen. George Patton once famously said, "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other guy die for his."
When we think of heroism in battle, we used the think of our boys storming the beaches of Normandy under withering fire, climbing the cliffs of Pointe do Hoc while enemy soldiers fired straight down on them, and tossing grenades into pill boxes to take out gun emplacements.
That kind of heroism has apparently become passe when it comes to awarding the Medal of Honor. We now award it only for preventing casualties, not for inflicting them.
So the question is this: when are we going to start awarding the Medal of Honor once again for soldiers who kill people and break things so our families can sleep safely at night?
I would suggest our culture has become so feminized that we have become squeamish at the thought of the valor that is expressed in killing enemy soldiers through acts of bravery. We know instinctively that we should honor courage, but shy away from honoring courage if it results in the taking of life rather than in just the saving of life. So we find it safe to honor those who throw themselves on a grenade to save their buddies.
Jesus, in words often cited in ceremonies such as the one which will take place this afternoon, said, “Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends” (John 15:13). So it is entirely right that we honor this kind of bravery and self-sacrifice, which is surely an imitation of the Lord of lords and King of kings.
However, Jesus’ act of self-sacrifice would ultimately have been meaningless - yes, meaningless - if he had not inflicted a mortal wound on the enemy while giving up his own life.
The significance of the cross is not just that Jesus laid down his life for us, but that he defeated the enemy of our souls in the process. It was on the cross that he crushed the head of the serpent. It was on the cross that “he disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in it” (Colossians 2:15).
The cross represented a cosmic showdown between the forces of light and the forces of darkness, and our commanding general claimed the ultimate prize by defeating our unseen enemy and liberating an entire planet from his bondage.
We rightly honor those who give up their lives to save their comrades. It’s about time we started also honoring those who kill bad guys.
(Bryan Fischer, American Family Association)
==========================
Agreed.
But not everyone sees it in the same light:
==========================
. . . . I have noticed a disturbing trend in the awarding of these medals, which few others seem to have recognized.
We have feminized the Medal of Honor.
According to Bill McGurn of the Wall Street Journal, every Medal of Honor awarded during these two conflicts has been awarded for saving life. Not one has been awarded for inflicting casualties on the enemy. Not one.
Gen. George Patton once famously said, "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other guy die for his."
When we think of heroism in battle, we used the think of our boys storming the beaches of Normandy under withering fire, climbing the cliffs of Pointe do Hoc while enemy soldiers fired straight down on them, and tossing grenades into pill boxes to take out gun emplacements.
That kind of heroism has apparently become passe when it comes to awarding the Medal of Honor. We now award it only for preventing casualties, not for inflicting them.
So the question is this: when are we going to start awarding the Medal of Honor once again for soldiers who kill people and break things so our families can sleep safely at night?
I would suggest our culture has become so feminized that we have become squeamish at the thought of the valor that is expressed in killing enemy soldiers through acts of bravery. We know instinctively that we should honor courage, but shy away from honoring courage if it results in the taking of life rather than in just the saving of life. So we find it safe to honor those who throw themselves on a grenade to save their buddies.
Jesus, in words often cited in ceremonies such as the one which will take place this afternoon, said, “Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends” (John 15:13). So it is entirely right that we honor this kind of bravery and self-sacrifice, which is surely an imitation of the Lord of lords and King of kings.
However, Jesus’ act of self-sacrifice would ultimately have been meaningless - yes, meaningless - if he had not inflicted a mortal wound on the enemy while giving up his own life.
The significance of the cross is not just that Jesus laid down his life for us, but that he defeated the enemy of our souls in the process. It was on the cross that he crushed the head of the serpent. It was on the cross that “he disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in it” (Colossians 2:15).
The cross represented a cosmic showdown between the forces of light and the forces of darkness, and our commanding general claimed the ultimate prize by defeating our unseen enemy and liberating an entire planet from his bondage.
We rightly honor those who give up their lives to save their comrades. It’s about time we started also honoring those who kill bad guys.
(Bryan Fischer, American Family Association)
==========================
nanook 1
Surely that guy knows there are medals for doing your job exceptionally well. If we give out the MOH to those who create great damage to the enemy, there would be a shit-load of of those medals around.
_____________________________
"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln
"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln
juanesky 0
Tell that to the seals that got on trial on July 4 week.
A good way to take of these "peace loving" enemy is the M2. Never had the chance to bayonet one yet, but working on it.
"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon
quade 3
Quote
We rightly honor those who give up their lives to save their comrades. It’s about time we started also honoring those who kill bad guys.
(Bryan Fischer, American Family Association)
Emphasis mine.
Hopefully, irony not lost on anyone.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
Quote"I have never given everything," Giunta said. "Sergeant Joshua Brennan gave everything."
...
When Logan asked what kind of soldier he is, Giunta said, "I'm average. I'm mediocre."
"This is only one moment," he said. "I don't think I did anything that anyone else I was with wouldn't have done. I was in a position to do it. That was what needed to be done. So that's what I did."
Legendary.
Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.
nanook 1
They were all aquitted. Also, have you ever read their Creed?
I stand by what I have said.
I stand by what I have said.
_____________________________
"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln
"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln
Guest
Quotespeaking of MoH, mark, your signature struck a nerve with me.
"Into The Mouth of the Cat" is the title of a biography of Lance Sijan, a MoH recipient from Vietnam, posthumous, i'm afraid. The book title is obviously taken from that which you quote in your sig, and it's appropriate.
anyway, it's nice to see a living soldier honored. After hearing his story, i have to agree that he'll be a good representative of the award.
You are the first person who has ever recognized or remarked on the quote in my sig line, aside from a PM I once received about the spelling of the Vietnamese version.
The title of McConnell's book is taken from a Vietnamese proverb: "The mouse does not know life until it has been in the mouth of the cat."
However, I did not choose it in order to draw a comparison between simply jumping out of an airplane and going into harm's way as Sijan did. That would be pathetic indeed.
I adopted it because I thought it was kind of the way I felt about skydiving - I didn't truly feel alive until I was at the door of an airplane, about to go head-down at 150 MPH with my hair on fire.
Another very good book (also posthumous) is "The Heart of a Man", a Navy pilot's diary published by his widow. Like the story of Sijan, it'll break your heart.
Servicemembers, as a general rule, don't object to being put at risk or in harm's way - it is, after all, what they signed up for.
However, they do object to being placed at risk for vaguely defined objectives, or their lives being wasted, and in ways that serve no meaningful purpose.
Giunta's recognition is of course well-earned, and bestowed by the President on behalf of a grateful nation, but more than anything else, I'd like for us to live in a world where we never have to give men honors such as these, because there are no more wars.
mh
edit to correct embedded URL
"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."
Skyrad 0
if you had to describe your choice of the qualities for the man who you would want next to you on a tour and when the shit hit the fan, it would be him.
When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Skyrad 0
Quote
at 150 MPH with my hair on fire
Why doesn't that surprise me?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyN8VN4BSzM&feature=related
When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Guest
QuoteQuote
at 150 MPH with my hair on fire
Why doesn't that surprise me?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyN8VN4BSzM&feature=related
Try going head-down without a helmet and being whipped by your own hair - it smarts.
mh
.
"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."
Quote
....
Try going head-down without a helmet and being whipped by your own hair - it smarts.
mh
.
Your hair must be pretty long, then
? 
dudeist skydiver # 3105
While I'm not 100% certain I agree with that as a part of the criteria, I think Staff Sgt. Giunta is a perfect example of what they're attempting to do there.
Do not get me wrong, I think there are hundreds of acts of heroism performed by our troops every day, but when they give the Medal of Honor to somebody, they also have to be 100% certain that person can't be ridiculed for their motivations or attitudes and that person also understands the example he is now required to maintain.
It's not like handing out a Dancing with the Stars trophy.
Imagine the enormous weight and burden it places on the recipient for the rest of his life.
Ya know those sports stars that get caught doing something iffy and they say, "Hey, I'm not a role model"? A Medal of Honor recipient can't ever say that; ever.
Let me start by saying this rant isn't directed directly at Quade but at the criteria he proposed for selecting a MoH recipient.
This statement is wrong on so many levels. A vetting process to ensure the MoH recipient is worthy BEYOND their actions, have people lost touch with reality? Well here is a quick lesson in it. The military isn't supposed to be the adult version of the boy scouts, I hate to break it to people but our job as soldiers is to kill other human beings. Not make peace, not make friends, not impress the public with little canopy formations over air shows, every soldier is a trained killer. They don't teach us to use our weapons to make peace, we train to aim them at human shaped targets and put rounds through them. And this attitude that people are trying to perpetuate about how we have to be role models if wrong. Yes we have to carry ourselves as professionals because of the type of organization we are in, but taking away from the valorous acts of a soldier because they don't represent what you think would be a good example is pathetic. All the best warriors I know were infamous for shooting off at the mouth, getting in trouble because they constantly buck the chain of command, having insanely short tempers, getting in fights, and the such. I'm sure all the self-proclaimed military "experts" that infect this forum are going to disagree and draw from their vast experience of doing nothing with their lives that is military related to try and refute this, but you can ask any soldier worth his weight and they'll tell you that they don't trust someone who has never broken the rules.
On a separate note congratulations to SSG Giunta, he definitely deserves his day in the sun. Hopefully he decides to make a career out of his service.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower