My problems with God

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Maybe, but total belief in him does not make a fat man pop down my chimney with a sack full of toys. Just as I feel total belief in God does not mean there is a heaven.

It brings heaven near to your heart. Jesus is about finding heaven on earth... hope is apart of that heaven... A child goes to bed and hopes for a fat man to come down his chimney.. he is alive in the hope, if the hope is sure.

"We didn't start the fire"

[billvon 2,454]

>Maybe, but total belief in him does not make a fat man pop down
>my chimney with a sack full of toys.

No, but that belief in him does get millions of kids presents on Christmas morning. And if that guy in the red suit is really grandpa instead of Kris Kringle, and he comes in via the garage instead of the chimney, that seems pretty minor overall.

[beowulf 1]

You have quite the fantasy world, yet no evidence to support it.
Your writings have more in common with Dungeons and Dragons then reality.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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No one is arguing that if you believe and you're wrong that you're wasted your life. I'm arguing that people as a whole, as a result of believing, have wasted millions of lives through wars and repression of human rights. This is hardly insignificant.

So faith has had a massive influence on the world and its structure. That is more interesting to me about why that is. Jesus said 2000 yrs ago that the world would inevitably end.. either because of faith, becuause of non faith, because of whatever reason... but it is still inevitable. That is before Christianity was even born (Jesus had not been ressurected then) In the book of Genesis it speaks of Islam and how they are destined to be a thorn in their brothers side and that they will live in hostility towards one another. Thats genesis, the oldest book in the bible. Nevertheless, we already have the weapons to destroy one another completely. and the bible also says that the destruction of the earth will come from its inhabitants. So, the way you see it, people are playing out the prophesys from the bible and that is what is making all this stuff come true, but you may not see that perhaps its just he prophesys in the bible that are true, and that even those who dont believe are apart of it just the same. Besides, there have been many wars fought over money, power, greed, territory ect... than a sincere faith in God... and all have shaped the influence of society as we know it... So I think you and I will just have to agree that both beleivers and non beleivers have shaped the society that influences us. And dont forget that Martin Luther King Jr was a Christian, so was Bob Marley, and many other human rights activists.

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I'm simply asking you to acknowledge that such atrocities are a byproduct of belief in general.

Im not trying to be argumentative either, but this is what comes out when you try to cross the dynamic between a believer and a non believer (not saying your either, just the forum in general).. I like to think I am a reasonable man, but unfortunately even reason cannot cross the line into revelation. So paschal was right. Reason wont find revelation, rather, revelation finds reason. But of course your right, and I acknowledge that. I just like your posts, their more philosophical than most.

"We didn't start the fire"

[georgerussia 0]

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You are more crazy about your "faith" and yes I did just call it that,

I still wonder how a grown-up adult can be confused between lack of faith and faith, but anyway. A lot of Christians believe in completely contradicting stuff anyway.

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I'm sorry you do not like free speech.

I don't care about your free speech in your home or in your church.
However your Christian "free speech" indeed would not be welcome in my home, which is indicated by a large "Jesus-free home" sign on my front door.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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The bible says God created man with free will. I cannot find where it says humans were created faulty.

You just need to look around you to see that. If THIS is the best your god can make, I am not impressed at all.

And "free will" contradicts with god being omniscient - an omniscient god should know exactly how you or me would behave in any specific time in future (otherwise it is not omniscient), and if the god sees that most his creatures are not doing good things, but didn't change anything - it's his fault.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Rstanley0312 0]

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You are more crazy about your "faith" and yes I did just call it that,

I still wonder how a grown-up adult can be confused between lack of faith and faith, but anyway. A lot of Christians believe in completely contradicting stuff anyway.

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I'm sorry you do not like free speech.

I don't care about your free speech in your home or in your church.
However your Christian "free speech" indeed would not be welcome in my home, which is indicated by a large "Jesus-free home" sign on my front door.

Like I said I would never bring it up in your home unless you asked me a question and wanted to talk about it. I don't bring it up at the DZ unless I am asked about it. (TK I know you respect that) I would rather someone know my faith by how I act. Am I perfect? Hell no but I want to give myself, my family, and my God a good name. I agree there are too many people out there that are crazy about throwing their faith in others faces and I do not like that. It just seems to me that you would be content with no one ever being able to talk about it.

I have no beef with what you do or do not believe I just always question so much angst towards anything that includes Christians as well.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[Will_Evo 0]

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The bible says God created man with free will. I cannot find where it says humans were created faulty. I know Gene said it but since he's dead can you post a reference to this?

If humans were not created faulty, explain eve eating from the tree when instructed not to? Not a mistake? Not a fault?

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>" those scientists who subscribe to the 'separate magisteria' school
>of thought should concede that a universe with a supernaturally
>intelligent creator is a very different kind of universe from one without."

That's a pretty huge assumption. A universe with a God who does not meddle in physical laws is identical to a universe without a God. (Indeed, atheists might claim that they are in fact the same thing.)

Problem being, according to the bible god does and has meddled with the physical world, aka the flood, creating the earth, creating humans etc...this with time could be proven, we could potentially find evidence of creation, or the contrary, but either way it is a different universe all together and is fact a scientific concern. An update on that as well...science is leaning away from creation...things just aren't adding up the more we investigate.

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I will not hide behind complexity as my defense, but I will plead ignorance to the big comprehensive picture of reality. All I can possibly know now is miniscule. But the Bible says that someday we will know in full. And like the force generated by gravity, the force emanating from God is known by its characteristics.

The bolded part of your reply, is absolutely hypocritical. You say you will plead ignorance to the big picture, but in the same breath claim you know without a doubt where everything came form, and know without a doubt what will happen in the future. You can't plead ignorance and believe in a bible that promotes an absolute truth.

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My point exactly, God does things for a reason, He doesn't make mistakes. Things that appear imperfect will become perfect when viewed with wisdom and understanding.

It does not take being a god, nor a brain surgeon to see that the process we are living through if god is real is absolutely unnecessary. it is evident in the story of the bible, like I said before, a god would not require a "playing out" of a situation, he knows what will become of it.

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If I read you correctly, I couldn't agree more. The God I know is the God of science. Science is His creation. He has given us the ability to understand Him both physically and spiritually. And as the Truth of each is unraveled, our opinions on how things should be have no bearing on what is.

What a lie, if god is real, he has made no physical effort to prove his existence. I have never heard a god speak, witnessed water turn into wine, frogs rain from the sky, or an angel float around talking to people. Maybe if this kind of physical interaction occurred, I would be more prone to believe, but as is evident, god is either dead, or does not care. How else can you explain him not reaching out to people who do not even know about a book called the bible, just allowing people to end up in an eternal hell he created...not very loving if you ask me.

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Your example of someone doing negative things with faith should give you reason to believe it is possible to do great and good things with it as well.

No doubt good things come from people who contain a faith, but to say that those good things would not happen without faith is a dangerous assumption.

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Who? I mean, who are we to question what gives us life? We all need to remember that we are only alive right now because of life. Life doesnt owe us any explanation or revelation at all, it doesnt even owe us time

Are you kidding? Who are we to question? I suppose if we all kept that train of thought, we would still be using stone clubs, and living in caves. it IS our ability to question and reason that makes us different from nature, and it is only fitting for us to question our existence as well. This is exactly the thing that is SO DANGEROUS about religion, it allows normal, everyday people to believe they have the answers, and without a doubt know the end result.

Of course you support this idea, but I can't get over the fact that the leader of the most powerful nation in the world, believes someone is talking to him and telling him what to do. How ridiculous does that sound. I am sure if you asked GW Bush he would tell you "god told me to halt stem cell research"....only a religious mentality could give someone the balls to oppose the most relevant and promising medical research known today, because they believe 50 cells have a soul...only religion gives someone the mentality to overlook the millions of people living in pain everyday that could benefit from the research, and only because of their faith and belief. Religion is dangerous and counterproductive to modern society.

-Evo

Zoo Crew

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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>Without the zeal of the jews at that time, Christ would not have been
>crucified for herasy, and we would not have the truth of Gods grace.

We would still have his words. I don't believe they would mean any less if he had not been crucified.

Forgive me here Bill, but the words arent enough, they never were... this is one of the stumbling stones of man made religion. It wasnt the word without the spirit. Its the spirit in the Word that saves. Crucified for our sin, and resurrected for our life. Plus the word, through the spirit had to fulfill the prophesy of the old promise to: as it was in the beginning, so shall it be in the end. "Jesus told everyone that "after you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know I am the one I claim to be, and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me"

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Are you kidding? Who are we to question?

Yes. Its like a fish talking trash to the water.

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I suppose if we all kept that train of thought, we would still be using stone clubs, and living in caves.

No, I dont believe that is true, but you do, so we'll just disagree.

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it IS our ability to question and reason that makes us different from nature, and it is only fitting for us to question our existence as well.

I dont believe that is true either. Its our ability to question and reason that makes us different from animals, but not different from nature. And it is interesting that a being of nature is "fit for questioning our existance" as you put it.

edited to add: BTW I support stem cell research as long as it is used in the right way.

"We didn't start the fire"

[Will_Evo 0]

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Are you kidding? Who are we to question?

Yes. Its like a fish talking trash to the water.

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I suppose if we all kept that train of thought, we would still be using stone clubs, and living in caves.

No, I dont believe that is true, but you do, so we'll just disagree.

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it IS our ability to question and reason that makes us different from nature, and it is only fitting for us to question our existence as well.

I dont believe that is true either. Its our ability to question and reason that makes us different from animals, but not different from nature. And it is interesting that a being of nature is "fit for questioning our existance" as you put it.

edited to add: BTW I support stem cell research as long as it is used in the right way.

If man did not question his surroundings, technology as we know it would not exist. We not have a grasp on electricity, we would not know what it is that holds us firm on the ground etc...it was the curiosity of man, and his ability to reason and investigate that made us who we are. Your mind frame is one in which "it works, leave it alone" which is faulty at best. man has questioned his existence since we first began to think, this is why cultures, everyone of them created some sort of god, to explain the unexplainable at the time, and your god is no different. thankfully in this day and age we have the technology to debunk some of the myths of religion and hopefully soon completely disprove them.

-Evo

Zoo Crew

[frequentfaller 0]

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edited to add: BTW I support stem cell research as long as it is used in the right way.

used the christian way?

religion is crap.

religion was created to explain the unexplainable. science figures things out, but it takes a long time. time measured on our human millisecond of existence compared to age of the universe scale. science will keep figuring things out, like eventually stop us from dying, travel to different planets.

or maybe a giant rock will collide with our planet and blink us back out of existence.

or may be god will get tired of muslims and christians trying to control his children. put back dinasours.

or maybe gods other children from another planet, will thank him for creating all the humans for them to eat.

or maybe i'll just burn in hell.

Born ok 1st time.

[happythoughts 0]

It's time you brought the Cheeses into your life.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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If man did not question his surroundings, technology as we know it would not exist. We not have a grasp on electricity, we would not know what it is that holds us firm on the ground etc...

technology as we know it maybe not, Atom bomb for one, and many other "atrocities" of mankind... But I dont agree with your statement fully.

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it was the curiosity of man, and his ability to reason and investigate that made us who we are.

Exploration and Revelation follows Wonder, and God is Wonder. Its no surprise that those qualities exist within the minds of his creation.

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Your mind frame is one in which "it works, leave it alone" which is faulty at best

My mindset is what right do we have to blame what gives us life. I dont believe I have the mindset of "if it works, leave it alone." God is real, I know that, and move deeper into the nature of God, I dont just "leave it alone" Wisdom has allowed Wonder to move in both your mind and my mind for a reason. I dont believe wisdom is faulty at all, just by nature is not supposed to be understood unless it reveals itself. There are plenty of scientists out there who passionately believe in God. The deeper they go, the more intelligent design is proven, of course, not the way you may see it The question is would you be able to find faith if God did show himself?


Again, we cant reveal through reason, but if you listen, you just may find the reason we have found through the revelations given in Christ. Interesting to me that some believe Jesus to be the absolute most foolish man who ever walked the planet, and how some believe he is the wisdom of the universe. Also that even after we have put a man on the moon, the message of Jesus still stands the test, and is exponentially getting stronger in the hearts of mankind. Everyone is crying out for good, for a cure, few are looking in Jesus. If Jesus was in everyone, and was everyone, the world would be incredibly revolutionized in a goodness the world has not yet known (its here, but not known to everyone), but is possible.

Your trying to hold on to the idea that if science can prove that God does not exist, that there would be no spirit of Jesus by faith, and the world would be a better place for everyone. See the difference in the dynamic. Ultimately, you like to believe you can be as good as Jesus without his spriit, and that if you disproved God, everyone would follow your philosophical moral structure, or whatever science has planned in their minds. You dont see that there is more power in the heart of man, than in the mind. The heart of science disproving God is to save the world... The heart of Jesus is to save the world. See anything yet?

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man has questioned his existence since we first began to think

This proves even more, to me at least, that we were designed with that very quality with or without a faith in God. I ask the question why does man have the ability to question his existence? You may say "who cares, just leave it alone". We arent really that different.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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used the christian way?

Used the right way. Christianity is about discernment.

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religion is crap.

religion was created to explain the unexplainable. science figures things out, but it takes a long time. time measured on our human millisecond of existence compared to age of the universe scale. science will keep figuring things out, like eventually stop us from dying, travel to different planets.

Jesus is the truth revealed to the soul of mankind. Man did not create truth, nor did we figure things out, that weren't already true. Wonder for me at least, goes way beyond other planets and just keeping myself alive... way beyond.

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or maybe a giant rock will collide with our planet and blink us back out of existence.
or may be god will get tired of muslims and christians trying to control his children. put back dinasours.
or maybe gods other children from another planet, will thank him for creating all the humans for them to eat.
or maybe i'll just burn in hell.

You sound very open. Honestly, have you even read the Gospel? I find foolish things in most religions, but the Gospel made absolute sense to me. And, according to Jesus, the one who ceases to exist is the one who does not have faith in the ressurection. Makes sense to me... our will to live is so much stronger than our ability. Faith has to be genuine, and that is what hope is for. These are human abilities that many do not use.

Life is about the heart, not the mind. There have been plently of examples of strong minds with weak hearts, and visa versa. Hitler may be a good example.(strong mind, weak heart) Jesus is the perfect example of strong heart.

"We didn't start the fire"

[jakee 1,265]

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I ask the question why does man have the ability to question his existence?

Potentially a very good question, and the subject of much research. unfortunately you've obviously just assumed that the answer is Goddidit.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Will_Evo 0]

About the stem cell research, good I am glad you are for it, doesn't change the fact that your faith is against it.

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technology as we know it maybe not, Atom bomb for one, and many other "atrocities" of mankind... But I dont agree with your statement fully.

So following your same logic, faith does bring good, but also the atrocities of religion with it,like killing millions of people in the name of a god, or flying planes into buildings, or halting medical research, or opposing condom use in the #1 Aids infected capital of the world, would you agree?

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Exploration and Revelation follows Wonder, and God is Wonder. Its no surprise that those qualities exist within the minds of his creation.

And where exactly did you find this in your religious text? To me this sounds just like any other man-made religious law, like the ones the catholic religion love to promote so freely.

Why can't curiosity just be a by-product of a self aware being? I know I am here, therefore I question why I am here. makes sense to me, alot more sense than saying god is wonder...where the hell did you get that from?

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My mindset is what right do we have to blame what gives us life. I dont believe I have the mindset of "if it works, leave it alone." God is real, I know that, and move deeper into the nature of God, I dont just "leave it alone" Wisdom has allowed Wonder to move in both your mind and my mind for a reason. I dont believe wisdom is faulty at all, just by nature is not supposed to be understood unless it reveals itself. There are plenty of scientists out there who passionately believe in God. The deeper they go, the more intelligent design is proven, of course, not the way you may see itWink The question is would you be able to find faith if God did show himself?

To the first bolded section. You do not "know" god is real, and I know this because I do not know he is real, and you do not contain any mental capacity I do not. You speculate he is real at best, hope he is real, but if you "knew" he was real, you would be able to supply physical evidence to prove yourself. People had no idea what gravity was, they did not know it existed, until someone could prove it. Same applies for your god, or any god. I can argue that I know the flying spaghetti monster is real, but of course I cannot back this up, and you would instantly refute my reasoning...same here.

To the second bolded section. If I got physical proof of a god, heard one talk, or witnessed a sea get split in two, etc..I would have the proof I needed, I am a being that functions on cold hard evidence, I even have a hard time taking someones word for it in general conversation, I find myself always researching the truth of the topic in private. You on the other hand, seem to take words as truth, without an ounce of research or evidence....thankfully today's scientists don't adopt this behavior.

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and is exponentially getting stronger in the hearts of mankind.

The more I read your posts, the more I realize half of what you say is made up. Explain to me where you get this exponentially rising result? Last time I checked, religion, on all fronts is losing momentum, and atheism is a rising trend in society.

People who claim to be atheist, agnostic, or no religion by birth year-

Date of birth
<1946 : 5%
1946-1964: 11%
1965-1976: 14%
1977+: 19%

Reference:http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Percentage_of_atheists

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You dont see that there is more power in the heart of man, than in the mind

Again your argument is ridiculous...you ever seen a human heart? It contains no thinking power whatsoever. Emotion, feeling, etc..all come from the mind...you do not have any conscious thought in your heart...I am not sure if you were being literal..but that is how I took it.

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I find foolish things in most religions, but the Gospel made absolute sense to me.

Oh your right. List of things that make sense in the bible:

-Snakes talking
-Trees containing knowledge
-Bushes talking
-The earth flooding
-Every species of animals fitting on a boat
-All species surviving after let off said ark with no food source but each other.
-The mass spread of the species of the world after the flood
-People turning into salt
-Water turning to wine
-people walking on water
-Splitting of entire seas
-A god killing himself
-People healing the blind
-people living in a whale
-people raising from the dead
-souls
-etc...

of course, when you read other religious text that contained nearly identical stories, you decided they made no sense, but then when put in the bible they "make absolute sense"....come on now.

Zoo Crew

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Potentially a very good question, and the subject of much research. unfortunately you've obviously just assumed that the answer is Goddidit.

No, I just accepted it. The wisdom of life is about the heart, not the mind, but the mind must be present to recognize the heart.

"We didn't start the fire"

[frequentfaller 0]

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Jesus is the truth revealed to the soul of mankind. Man did not create truth, nor did we figure things out, that weren't already true. Wonder for me at least, goes way beyond other planets and just keeping myself alive... way beyond.

jesus is a mythical person like apollo or muhammed.

in the bible jesus is born, big celebration the son of god is born. then you dont hear anything about him til he's 30. what was teenage jesus like?

truth is a man made concept. when i say figure things out, i mean over time scientifically strive towards proving scientific theroies.

i wonder about a lot of things. most will never be known by me or anybody alive today.

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You sound very open. Honestly, have you even read the Gospel? I find foolish things in most religions, but the Gospel made absolute sense to me. And, according to Jesus, the one who ceases to exist is the one who does not have faith in the ressurection. Makes sense to me... our will to live is so much stronger than our ability. Faith has to be genuine, and that is what hope is for. These are human abilities that many do not use.

Life is about the heart, not the mind. There have been plently of examples of strong minds with weak hearts, and visa versa. Hitler may be a good example.(strong mind, weak heart) Jesus is the perfect example of strong heart.

yes i have read king james version of the bible. kind of a loose collection of different books? it makes sense, i mean, i comprehend it. just kind of boring. except revalations it gets kinda good.

you are right i will cease to exist, but has nothing to do with faith. sorry, but you will cease to exist too. Thats one of religions selling points. I hear some people say they believe, argue the difference between an atheiest and priest. if priest is right then he will go to heaven and athiest will go to hell, if athiest right then they will both just be dead. so they are hedging their bets.

life is about the heart and the mind. without the heart, the mind dies. without the mind, the heart is a blood pump. Hitler was smart and charasmatic to a people that were beaten down by ww1. plenty of heart just twisted and angry.

Born ok 1st time.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Potentially a very good question, and the subject of much research. unfortunately you've obviously just assumed that the answer is Goddidit.

No, I just accepted it. The wisdom of life is about the heart, not the mind, but the mind must be present to recognize the heart.

When I was a young child, I just accepted that there were monsters under my bed. That was not wisdom. Earnest belief in the incorporeal and physically un-provable may be hard-wired into our genome, but it is neither the definition of, nor is it an example of, "wisdom".

Part of the problem I have with the way the ultra-devout of any faith discuss their faith is that they tend to enable themselves by re-defining common terms, and then using that re-definition as a foundation for further discussion. (You're not the only one in this thread to do it. With all due respect to RonD, I think he uses that rhetorical device, too.) But re-defining a horse as a "fish" does not make the animal any more aquatic.

[shropshire 0]

It is my belief that both God and Man are ........ Man Made....... abnd I can live with that. Can You?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[christelsabine 1]

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It is my belief that both God and Man are ........ Man Made....... abnd I can live with that. Can You?

Yep. Partially right: God was man "created".

Man is result of a more than a million year old and still working evolution.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[shropshire 0]

I accept your correction .... I'm a simple man and tend to think of things in easy, bite size pieces.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[christelsabine 1]

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I accept your correction .... I'm a simple man and tend to think of things in easy, bite size pieces.

Oh shropshire, I was not talking about YOU! I know men are simple and only should be fed with small palatable pcs ...

"Man" in my post should be seen as mankind . I have been serious.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[shropshire 0]

I think that we're on the same lines.... Nothing Mythical or magical ... just natureal processes at work.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome