Andy9o8 0 #376 December 8, 2009 Quote Way to basically dismiss a person's credentials just because he's... you know, a darkie. Quote First I sure as hell didn't write that! Ack! I'm sorry - it was in my clipboard memory from another post & I didn't proofread what i posted to you because I'm multi-tasking at work. I mean to reply to this sentence: Quote So the Swiss put culture controls on. It is actually far more gentle than how we limit our immigration. I just edited my post #373 to correct the error. ============== Quote Who claimed Christians are going to be an endangered species? Wait, isn't that an analogy you try to avoid? Sure, but you used an analogy, so I did my best to respond to it. Didn't want to be impolite. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,475 #377 December 8, 2009 >So the Swiss put culture controls on. It is actually far more gentle than >how we limit our immigration. The two have nothing to do with each other. One is limiting the expression of a specific religion of legal citizens of a country. The other is limiting immigration. One is prohibited by our constitution; the other is not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #378 December 8, 2009 Quotean immigrant is a guest in his/her host country and the burden is on the immigrant to respect the ways of the host country. Nonsense. You're confusing "visitor" with "immigrant". A visitor is just that - a guest. An immigrant is someone who comes to live permanently. They are no longer guests; they are members (especially if they become citizens - to the extent the new country allows them to do so). QuoteWhat a dramatic exaggeration. AGAIN, Switzerland is not banning headscarves or burqas. They are banning minarets, a culturally very important (even if not always mandatory) aspect of mosque architecture. You're refusing to see their perspective because it's not your personal ox getting gored. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #379 December 8, 2009 Who should adapt to whose *rituals* or *symbols*? The one wanting to come in (whatever reasons one has) or the one that opens its doors? You as a US citizen perhaps should ask your immigration offices. (I'm not talking about followers of already "suburbanized" immigrants.) dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #380 December 8, 2009 Quote Quote So the Swiss put culture controls on. It is actually far more gentle than how we limit our immigration. I'd argue that it's actually more harsh. Once you've immigrated to a country, you should be free of ethnic discrimination against you in the nation to which you've re-settled. Nothing more (as the demagogues would like to characterize it), but nothing less. But to allow someone to immigrate into your land, and then to tolerate/facilitate hurtful ethnic discrimination against them, is really quite cruel. Quote You mean just like the kind of ethnic bigotry employed to "protect" the culture of upper Amazon tribes, ... Poor analogy, which is why I try to avoid analogies if I can. The Amazon tribes (not to be confused with the anti-rePUBICans) are nearly extinct already, and are faced with disappearing altogether. Somehow, though, I don't think that Christians in Switzerland are going to be an endangered species any time soon. Hey.. Bite me law boy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #381 December 8, 2009 QuoteWho should adapt to whose *rituals* or *symbols*? The one wanting to come in (whatever reasons one has) or the one that opens its doors? You as a US citizen perhaps should ask your immigration offices. (I'm not talking about followers of already "suburbanized" immigrants.) I don't see that anyone has to adapt, if everyone simply allows everyone else to just live and let live. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,475 #382 December 8, 2009 >Who should adapt to whose *rituals* or *symbols*? Neither should have to adapt to either. >You as a US citizen perhaps should ask your immigration offices. And the next time you are in the US, be sure to have a margarita and a burrito during Cinco de Mayo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #383 December 8, 2009 Quote>Who should adapt to whose *rituals* or *symbols*? Neither should have to adapt to either. >You as a US citizen perhaps should ask your immigration offices. And the next time you are in the US, be sure to have a margarita and a burrito during Cinco de Mayo. You've got it wrong. Everyone knows that the best American food is Chinese and Italian. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #384 December 8, 2009 QuoteQuoteWho should adapt to whose *rituals* or *symbols*? The one wanting to come in (whatever reasons one has) or the one that opens its doors? You as a US citizen perhaps should ask your immigration offices. (I'm not talking about followers of already "suburbanized" immigrants.) I don't see that anyone has to adapt, if everyone simply allows everyone else to just live and let live. That live and let live thing is GREAT.. as long as both sides are playing to the same rules and there is where we have the problem. The current crop of emmigre's to the EU and to the US... want the absorbing societies to change to the new arrivals social proclivities, unlike many former waves of immigrants who changed to fit into their new country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,475 #385 December 8, 2009 >Everyone knows that the best American food is Chinese and Italian. But the best mixed drinks come from Mexico. I mean - what does China have as mixed drinks? Italy? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #386 December 8, 2009 Quote Quote Who should adapt to whose *rituals* or *symbols*? The one wanting to come in (whatever reasons one has) or the one that opens its doors? You as a US citizen perhaps should ask your immigration offices. (I'm not talking about followers of already "suburbanized" immigrants.) I don't see that anyone has to adapt, if everyone simply allows everyone else to just live and let live. You know, there are several rituals which are not really ours here in the Western world? Which, perhaps, you too would not accept with an easy heart? And rituals are important components of cultures which are brought along in the new surrounding. Let's take that *bloodless* one of Bulgarian gypsies, gathering every night around thier bonfire (in the park next to your appartment block) enjoying thier lifes while talking, BBQing, kids playing... all night long. We had such cases several times. Would you really say "live and let live .."? There are *bloody* rituals, which no one would accept in our wold. Chopping off hands (thieves) ... and the list goes on. Where to draw the line? I spent my early years in Canada. My twenties in the Far East. In South-Korea, I alienated locals as I was unable to try a mouthful from my still partially moving food on the dinner plate Who is affronting whom now? Live and let live is only a song title. It only seems to work with a lot of efforts. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #387 December 8, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteWho should adapt to whose *rituals* or *symbols*? The one wanting to come in (whatever reasons one has) or the one that opens its doors? You as a US citizen perhaps should ask your immigration offices. (I'm not talking about followers of already "suburbanized" immigrants.) I don't see that anyone has to adapt, if everyone simply allows everyone else to just live and let live. That live and let live thing is GREAT.. as long as both sides are playing to the same rules and there is where we have the problem. The current crop of emmigre's to the EU and to the US... want the absorbing societies to change to the new arrivals social proclivities, unlike many former waves of immigrants who changed to fit into their new country. I think that, historically, every generation of "locals" feels that way about the then-current crop of immigrants. It just takes the passage of time to be able to step away from the canvas and see it. For example, from a cultural standpoint, the US of, say, 1950 was already drastically different than the US of 1890, due in large part to the crop of immigrants into the US during the first half of the 20th Century. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #388 December 8, 2009 Quote >Who should adapt to whose *rituals* or *symbols*? Neither should have to adapt to either. >You as a US citizen perhaps should ask your immigration offices. And the next time you are in the US, be sure to have a margarita and a burrito during Cinco de Mayo. Big problem. Don't like margaritas or such, never have been to Mexico. Will keep that in mind for next overseas visit. OTOH, the Californian wine is wonderful. Bringing along a bottle perhaps will entertain me a bit more while waiting 6 or more hours before they let me in, these control freaks at NY airport. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #389 December 8, 2009 QuoteThis issue was about proclaiming "This is our nation, and our culture. You may come live here, but we are drawing a line in the sand and saying we are keeping things as they are today. It is your choice to come or not. " I have a hard time finding fault with that viewpoint, regardless of if it is in an Islamic, African, Asian, or western nation. So, can we assume that you believe that a nation building mission in, for example, Afghanistan, would be wrong? Or, do you favor forcing change upon other nations as long as that change is to your liking?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterblaster72 0 #390 December 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteWho should adapt to whose *rituals* or *symbols*? The one wanting to come in (whatever reasons one has) or the one that opens its doors? You as a US citizen perhaps should ask your immigration offices. (I'm not talking about followers of already "suburbanized" immigrants.) I don't see that anyone has to adapt, if everyone simply allows everyone else to just live and let live. Which is precisely what members of some Muslim immigrant communities throughout Europe are *not* doing. You continue to ignore this point while crying bigotry. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #391 December 9, 2009 One mans "Live and Let Live" is another mans "Win" and another mans Loose - Some one needs to mediate and/or judge. Majority rule is to win by strength and the minorities loose out, often unjustly... There has to be a better way. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #392 December 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteWho should adapt to whose *rituals* or *symbols*? The one wanting to come in (whatever reasons one has) or the one that opens its doors? You as a US citizen perhaps should ask your immigration offices. (I'm not talking about followers of already "suburbanized" immigrants.) I don't see that anyone has to adapt, if everyone simply allows everyone else to just live and let live. Which is precisely what members of some Muslim immigrant communities throughout Europe are *not* doing. You continue to ignore this point while crying bigotry. I agree with Shop's reply in post #391. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d16842 0 #393 December 10, 2009 Quote So, can we assume that you believe that a nation building mission in, for example, Afghanistan, would be wrong? Or, do you favor forcing change upon other nations as long as that change is to your liking? For starters, this isn't one nation forcing change on another. Instead it is just one nation proclaiming via a democratic free election that what we are is what we want and plan to stay. Move here if you want, but do so knowing how we feel. And in one of my posts above, I said that I believe it perfectly fine for present Islamic nations to do exactly the same thing, to have self determination as a culture. So nation building doesn't apply either way. But since you asked I think nation building is very unlikely to succeed, given that we want an exit strategy before we even deploy the needed troops. I don't think it reasonable to expect a culture to openly accept any change that comes their way, or more importantly in this case, one they see happening in other nearby nations in a very scary way, and act to avoid it.Tom B Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d16842 0 #394 December 10, 2009 Quote>So the Swiss put culture controls on. It is actually far more gentle than >how we limit our immigration. The two have nothing to do with each other. One is limiting the expression of a specific religion of legal citizens of a country. The other is limiting immigration. One is prohibited by our constitution; the other is not. That argument might work here in the US, but the last I heard, Switzerland was not in the US and is not under our Constitution. And even if their equivilent of our Constitution prevented it, the magnitide of the vote made it the equivilent of a constitutional change. But what I meant by our being harsh is that we encourage illegal immigration by waving dollars to get them to come, then make it literally life risking to actually cross the boarder. I have been on searches in the desert for lost imigrants when I lived in AZ. They do die coming. I find that harsh. And the two are most definitely linked together. The Swiss have watched as other European nations face ever increasing problems because of large Islamic immigration. Changes like an expectation of Islamic Law, the literal sale of young women for marriage, and much more. With this vote the Swiss have drawn a line in the sand that discourages both the problem behaviors and Islamic immigration in the future. Or at least says, This is our culture and it is not changing. It was mainly symbolic in nature, but make no mistake, that was what the vote was about. It wasn't really focused on denying things to those already in the nation, although it does have impact on them.Tom B Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #395 December 10, 2009 QuoteFor starters, this isn't one nation forcing change on another. That's exactly what it (i.e., US involvement in Afghanistan) is.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d16842 0 #396 December 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteFor starters, this isn't one nation forcing change on another. That's exactly what it (i.e., US involvement in Afghanistan) is. That is true, but has nothing whatsoever to do with my post. The topic and my discussions in it are all about Switzerland changing building codes. I don't know why another poster brought Afganistan in at all.Tom B Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #397 December 10, 2009 QuoteI don't know why another poster brought Afganistan in at all. Perhaps it was to highlight an inconsistency.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #398 December 11, 2009 so, for some protest, there's a some german imam (preacher) supposed to come. our CIA does not allow his immigration, as he's a threat to public, he preaches crimes and what not.. just seen a message of his, saying he was gonna come anyway. so much for respecting us and our customs, muslims of the world, with this you've shot yourselfs in the foot. the country will face a massive right swing on the next elections.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,412 #399 December 11, 2009 Interesting form of protest from a non-Muslim Swiss citizen: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jEtHJMaOboide2wITSxabVwvHTYg"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #400 December 11, 2009 Quoteso much for respecting us and our customs, muslims of the world, with this you've shot yourselfs in the foot. the country will face a massive right swing on the next elections.. First Quotethe country will face a massive right swing on the next elections You already have and the people who fear anything they are not used to already have voted. Too bad there is more of them in your country. Quotemuslims of the world 2nd. This is where your problem starts. I have no idea who your talking about, have never read or seen what this dude has said, yet you assume he is representing muslims of the world. You know there is not just two of us right? Quoteso much for respecting us and our customs Crazy how people never learn from history. Intolerance and segregation brings anger and separation. That’s how wars start and genocide occurs. I wish people thought more about their opinions and its effects before they opened their mouth.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
