Do poor people do things to keep themselves poor.

[Darius11 12]

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The "majority" you are speaking of can get a job I assure you. They just don't want to do the jobs that are available to them. I guaranty that there are plenty of shitty jobs out there that anyone can do, and guess what you can even work two of those shitty jobs if you so chose.

You do relize you can work two or even tree shitty jobs not be on drugs, have 8 kids, and still be poor right?

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I say, they should just give up and die... Get real man. Even your signature line is depressing.

The sig line is mine. I like to write.

How did you get so tough?

Its amazing your like the guys who talk shit on xbox.


Last ? are you 12?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[billvon 2,400]

>The "majority" you are speaking of can get a job I assure you. They
>just don't want to do the jobs that are available to them.

And some can't even do them. "Give up and die" is not a good option for these people IMO.

[ridestrong 1]

Darius

You say, "You do relize you can work two or even tree shitty jobs not be on drugs, have 8 kids, and still be poor right?"

I say, Yes, exactly answering the OP question. They are doing something to keep themselves poor. If they have 8 kids, that was their choice, they did that. Anyone can claim bankruptcy, start from scratch and get out of poverty. But it will sure as shit be harder if you do things to hold you back.

I can't debate it with you when you can't see the big picture, and come back with the following:

"How did you get so tough?
Its amazing your like the guys who talk shit on xbox.
Last ? are you 12?"

I will ask you again,To say that they don't have the opportunity is plain ridiculous. Why don't they have the "opportunity" you speak of?

Before you answer, ask yourself if it is just another open-ended excuse like the rest of them.

If you try and fail... try again until you fucking succeed or die trying.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[normiss 622]

There are millions of inner city poor that would disagree with that.

[ridestrong 1]

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>The "majority" you are speaking of can get a job I assure you. They
>just don't want to do the jobs that are available to them.

And some can't even do them. "Give up and die" is not a good option for these people IMO.

If you can't wash dishes, mop floors, etc... then you are severely handicapped and are the exception and should be taken care of.

My "Give up and die" quote should have been obviously sarcastic since it is the exact point I'm arguing against. Didn't you read the last sentence of my last few posts?

I believe everyone can make their own opportunities. To deny that is simply oppressive.

If you try and fail... try again until you fucking succeed or die trying.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[georgerussia 0]

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Better in what way?

Better chance to get out of poverty, comparing to doing nothing.

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That's a completely unsupported assumption. There are people who are simply too dumb to get out of poverty, and pretty much have to live on the generosity of others/the government. (And I am glad I live in a society where such generosity exists.)

Yes, this is what I mean by saying the majority does not want to get out of poverty - they want you to come, and save them from poverty. It might also be called "living on the generosity of others", this is fine too. Of course, once you start providing some basics to everyone, the definition of poverty goes up too - if fifty years ago poverty meant not being able to buy apples and diapers, now it means not being able to buy a cell phone and organic apples.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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To me it seemed you were trying to say that all or even most poor people are poor and its there own fault, and there is no other contributing factor to them being poor other then bad decision making. my misunderstanding.........?

No, what I'm trying to say that almost everyone can get out of poverty. This way out is indeed hard, and depends on commitment, hard work and making smart decisions. And of course the only way to learn to make smart decisions is to make decisions, and learn from your mistakes. If you are walking, you might end up further from your target. But if you are just staying and not moving, you're surely never be there.

My whole post was a (probably knee-jerk) reaction on your "you can no longer just work hard and have a house and a life" comment. This is not true. You can still get all the way to the top by working hard, and Obama seems to be pretty good example to prove it; I wouldn't vote for him, but I indeed respect him. You can also compare him with another recent example of a President, which proves that you can be born in a rich family, go through top universities, and still screw up everything you touch, and called an idiot.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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So why do you support a government that does not agree with you?

Because I live in real world, and I'm not naive to expect everyone to make the right choice. And leaving people to die just because they made dumb mistakes is not something I would be happy to do. Been there, seen that. It's not pretty.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[kelpdiver 2]

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I don't know what else to tell you but i promise you there are people who try just as hard as Micheal Jordan did but there is only one Michale Jordan. If our excellence and the best is somewhat reliant on the luck of the draw why would you deny that the luck applies to all of us?

Because it's not. Anyone who tries as hard as MJ will be successful. He or she may not be the #1 player in the NBA, but that's a rather harsh definition of success.

Many pro athletes get there on the basis of talent (read genetics, fast twitch muscle fibers, etc) and a moderate amount of effort. But the pro athletes that are the best or have the longest careers, they work hard for it. Jerry Rice came out of a minor college to be the best receiver ever. His offseason training was legendary. Karl Malone maintained a bf% of 3-4%. Jordan was no different, and they all had the mentality to always keep trying.

When George talked about 'luck,' he's really talking about opportunity. Winners make their own luck. They're looking for opportunities and are ready to take advantage of them when they appear. Losers do not, they wait for opportunity to knock.

When parents in poor families don't encourage education, or in fact encourage poor speech (ebonics, anyone) and mock their kids for speaking in proper English, that's ensuring that there will be few opportunities. Having many children and no job ensures limited resources, and again, fewer opportunities. And the stupid financial moves discussed in that article - there's no shortage of basic financial education out there. You can read it from that iPhone that you can't really afford, but got anyway.

In answer to the question, a significant subset of the 'poor' do things to keep themselves that way. That is not the same as saying they all do.

[kallend 1,623]

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>The "majority" you are speaking of can get a job I assure you. They
>just don't want to do the jobs that are available to them.

And some can't even do them. "Give up and die" is not a good option for these people IMO.

If you can't wash dishes, mop floors, etc... then you are severely handicapped and are the exception and should be taken care of.

.

Not many dishwashing or floor mopping jobs going in Detroit these days. Or in Ethiopia, for that matter, which is even worse off than Detroit.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,400]

>If you can't wash dishes, mop floors, etc... then you are severely
>handicapped and are the exception and should be taken care of.

That's a pretty narrow-minded statement. I knew several people who were not 'severely handicapped' - they were just so below average intelligence that they could not function effectively without supervision.

Fortunately, they were working in jobs where people were willing to give them the supervision they needed. They were never going to get ahead, and they were never going to get out of their minimum wage jobs. They could not just "climb out of poverty."

>I believe everyone can make their own opportunities. To deny that is simply oppressive.

It is simply reality. Not everyone is the same. Not everyone has the same abilities. Not everyone can succeed.

[thedude325 0]

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.


"Families are always rising and falling in America. But, I believe, we ought to examine more closely the how and why of it, which in the end revolves around life and how you live it."
—Nathaniel Hawthorne

[ridestrong 1]

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>If you can't wash dishes, mop floors, etc... then you are severely
>handicapped and are the exception and should be taken care of.

That's a pretty narrow-minded statement. I knew several people who were not 'severely handicapped' - they were just so below average intelligence that they could not function effectively without supervision.

Fortunately, they were working in jobs where people were willing to give them the supervision they needed. They were never going to get ahead, and they were never going to get out of their minimum wage jobs. They could not just "climb out of poverty."

>I believe everyone can make their own opportunities. To deny that is simply oppressive.

It is simply reality. Not everyone is the same. Not everyone has the same abilities. Not everyone can succeed.

If you lack the ability/skill,know-how to wash dishes, then most likely you can not care for yourself independently.

I agree with you, people that can not effectively care for themselves should have aid and be taken care of. I think for arguments sake we should leave people with debilitating physical or mental limitations out of the vote.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[PLFXpert 0]

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When George talked about 'luck,' he's really talking about opportunity.

When I get lazy, I remind myself of two things I believe--both from observation and experience--to be true:

The harder you work, the luckier you get.

and

You get out what you put in.

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In answer to the question, a significant subset of the 'poor' do things to keep themselves that way. That is not the same as saying they all do.

My thoughts exactly.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[PLFXpert 0]

I will change it after tomorrow but...

Coincidentally, I just realized the Halloween-themed avatar I switched to for the day was taken at an event for a local organization I support that funds college scholarships for "underprivileged" kids that work hard and do well in school.

I like that my support is voluntary.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[TomAiello 25]

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Not many dishwashing or floor mopping jobs going in Detroit these days. Or in Ethiopia, for that matter, which is even worse off than Detroit.

If Ethiopia is worse off than Detroit, why are we prioritizing health "insurance" in Detroit above food in Ethiopia. Shouldn't all this health reform business wait until after we're actually feeding everyone?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[billvon 2,400]

>If you lack the ability/skill,know-how to wash dishes, then most likely you
>can not care for yourself independently.

OK, I'll give you an example.

Jim was a janitor at a county park I worked at. He could mop the floor as long as someone made sure he turned the hose off afterwards. He could sweep. We never had him wash any dishes; even if we had dishes to wash, he'd probably break half of them. He couldn't change the paper towels on his own; he'd often cut himself (the towel dispensers did suck, although I managed it.) He lost part of his finger one day when he was mopping the pool equipment room and leaned on the wrong piece of equipment. Never figured out how he managed to do that.

Jim could take care of himself, and could do basic things like mopping and sweeping. That was about the limit of what he could do. He wasn't retarded, didn't have Down Syndrome, he was just at the bottom end of the bell curve. He would never be able to climb out of poverty no matter how hard he tried. And he did try; he'd mop so hard that he'd nearly give himself a heart attack. (My efforts to explain to him that pushing harder on a mop was sometimes counterproductive did not make sense to him, unfortunately.)

There are a lot of people like this in the world. They're easy to overlook because they're the people mopping the floors (or trying to, in Jim's case.) But they are with us. For every programmer with an IQ of 125 you have a Jim with an IQ of 75; that's how IQ works.

Now, Jim was doing pretty well for himself. He had a government job where people put up with him, where they were willing to assign people (like me) to watch him while he was sweeping the floor. But if you really claim that he was stuck in poverty because he wasn't willing to try hard, you've never met anyone like him. And if you really think he was hireable, I think you might want to consider whether you'd hire him.

[nanook 1]

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If you look at how much prices have changed compared to salaries over the last 50 years you will see that I am right.

How does this affect upward mobility? If this is true, all walks of life within the same horizontal slice of salary would have an equal amount of struggle relatively speaking. This would make the statement moot. It didn't seem to slow down the successful.

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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>If you lack the ability/skill,know-how to wash dishes, then most likely you
>can not care for yourself independently.

OK, I'll give you an example.

Jim was a janitor at a county park I worked at. He could mop the floor as long as someone made sure he turned the hose off afterwards. He could sweep. We never had him wash any dishes; even if we had dishes to wash, he'd probably break half of them. He couldn't change the paper towels on his own; he'd often cut himself (the towel dispensers did suck, although I managed it.) He lost part of his finger one day when he was mopping the pool equipment room and leaned on the wrong piece of equipment. Never figured out how he managed to do that.

Jim could take care of himself, and could do basic things like mopping and sweeping. That was about the limit of what he could do. He wasn't retarded, didn't have Down Syndrome, he was just at the bottom end of the bell curve. He would never be able to climb out of poverty no matter how hard he tried. And he did try; he'd mop so hard that he'd nearly give himself a heart attack. (My efforts to explain to him that pushing harder on a mop was sometimes counterproductive did not make sense to him, unfortunately.)

There are a lot of people like this in the world. They're easy to overlook because they're the people mopping the floors (or trying to, in Jim's case.) But they are with us. For every programmer with an IQ of 125 you have a Jim with an IQ of 75; that's how IQ works.

Now, Jim was doing pretty well for himself. He had a government job where people put up with him, where they were willing to assign people (like me) to watch him while he was sweeping the floor. But if you really claim that he was stuck in poverty because he wasn't willing to try hard, you've never met anyone like him. And if you really think he was hireable, I think you might want to consider whether you'd hire him.

I know several "Jims" myself. Unfortunately there will always be people who think Jim isn't trying hard enough. I'm just glad that the Jims in the world give their best effort at jobs most people refuse to do. By giving 100% Jim can take more pride in his work than the 125 IQ programmer who only gives 80% effort and complains because Jim missed a spot on the tile floor.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Darius11 12]

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Darius

You say, "You do relize you can work two or even tree shitty jobs not be on drugs, have 8 kids, and still be poor right?"

Thats me rushing off the pc. I meant not have 8 kids. What i mean is you can work 2 or 3 jobs and still not make enough to not be poor.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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Because it's not. Anyone who tries as hard as MJ will be successful. He or she may not be the #1 player in the NBA

If you believe what you said above, then you already are confirming that there is an element of luck. Or else the same hard work would lead to the same result..

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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In Reply To
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If you look at how much prices have changed compared to salaries over the last 50 years you will see that I am right.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


How does this affect upward mobility? If this is true, all walks of life within the same horizontal slice of salary would have an equal amount of struggle relatively speaking. This would make the statement moot. It didn't seem to slow down the successful.

That was a comment made in regards to the American dream being dead or more correctly much harder to get to now then it was 50 years ago.

If you made 47K in the 60s and a home was under 100 K and then 50 years later the same level job gets paid 52K and the same house is 300K its more difficult to own the same home is it not?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[ridestrong 1]

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>If you lack the ability/skill,know-how to wash dishes, then most likely you
>can not care for yourself independently.

OK, I'll give you an example.

Jim was a janitor at a county park I worked at. He could mop the floor as long as someone made sure he turned the hose off afterwards. He could sweep. We never had him wash any dishes; even if we had dishes to wash, he'd probably break half of them. He couldn't change the paper towels on his own; he'd often cut himself (the towel dispensers did suck, although I managed it.) He lost part of his finger one day when he was mopping the pool equipment room and leaned on the wrong piece of equipment. Never figured out how he managed to do that.

Jim could take care of himself, and could do basic things like mopping and sweeping. That was about the limit of what he could do. He wasn't retarded, didn't have Down Syndrome, he was just at the bottom end of the bell curve. He would never be able to climb out of poverty no matter how hard he tried. And he did try; he'd mop so hard that he'd nearly give himself a heart attack. (My efforts to explain to him that pushing harder on a mop was sometimes counterproductive did not make sense to him, unfortunately.)

There are a lot of people like this in the world. They're easy to overlook because they're the people mopping the floors (or trying to, in Jim's case.) But they are with us. For every programmer with an IQ of 125 you have a Jim with an IQ of 75; that's how IQ works.

Now, Jim was doing pretty well for himself. He had a government job where people put up with him, where they were willing to assign people (like me) to watch him while he was sweeping the floor. But if you really claim that he was stuck in poverty because he wasn't willing to try hard, you've never met anyone like him. And if you really think he was hireable, I think you might want to consider whether you'd hire him.

Ok, yes there are people like Jim. The real issue is the people with the capabilities to improve their situation but don't. As you said Jim requires supervision to work effectively/productively.

As I said before people without the mental or physical capabilities to improve themselves should be excluded and provided for as needed. It is those with the mental and physical capabilities that can but don't.

There are going to be thousands of exceptions. But even more with the capability that don't.

I am 100% for helping/assisting/caring and providing for those who truly need it. If someone just needs a boost then I am for that too.

If you give someone living in poverty $2,000 to do with what they want. How many of them do you think will use that $ to buy essentials/tools to advance themselves vs buying feel-good or luxury items? (Please don't tell me they will need all that money to buy food etc... let's just assume for the scenario that they receive food stamps etc...)

I think we have lost focus on the general question: "Do poor people do things to keep themselves poor?" We keep focusing on the extremes and bottom of the poverty line.

I simply feel that the majority of the poor can improve their lives should they do what is necessary to do so.

It's obviously not easy but it is possible. If I say, "you can't" then you can... if you say, you can't, then you can't... because you won't try.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[ridestrong 1]

From here on out I will revert to my previous posts, as I keep circling back to them.

Has been a good discussion.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[JohnDeere 0]

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There are millions of inner city poor that would disagree with that.

Then they would be wrong

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!