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But aren't you the exception that proves the rule?
Nope. There is nothing exceptional in me or my wife. Nor there were any exceptional circumstances.
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I assume (from your nick) that you are originally from Russia (please correct me if I'm wrong). The vast majority of poor Russians do not emigrate to the USA--they remain in Russia.
Yes, they do not - mostly because they do not want to emigrate. You obviously understand that emigration is not an acceptable solution for everyone - you need to learn foreign language and different culture, you need to start building a social circle again. This is considering that USA is one of the easiest countries to immigrate into (together with Canada). However according to the source, approximately 500K people immigrated from Russia during last ten years, so the numbers aren't that small either.
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The moment you set foot in America you had already set yourself apart from the vast majority of poor Russians, regardless of what might have happened after that. Your example shows that there is a way out of poverty, but it also serves to underscore that the vast majority of those born poor--in Russia, in America, or anywhere else--do not succeed in finding that way out.
WTF? The way you're presenting it looks like I went to bed at some time in past, and next morning I woke up in the USA. "The moment you set foot in America" is the _result_, it's not just a decision. The way you're saying it is similar to if you said to Lawrocket something like "the moment you finished your law school, you had already set yourself apart from the vast majority of poor Americans".
This is kind of decision everyone can make. Most people just do not want to - emigrating in another country is not an easy "way out". And I know a lot of people who went this way. So far none of them had rich parents or was born speaking English. Everyone got where they got to by working hard, and making tough choices. This is what matters.
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
We were going to tear down some really dilapidated public housing and replace it with more modern and less congested housing that resembled the neighborhood surrounding it. We of course had detractors, including a woman of 27 who had NINE children, by NINE different fathers in nine years. She was sure that the welfare check from the NEXT baby was going to be the one that would bring her out of poverty.
So yea, there sure are a lot of different reasons that people are poor, but in this case, she hadn't learned from her mother or her grandmother, who had both used the same method of income to live in the same project housing. And she certainly didn't learn from her previous 8 babies, that # 9 was going to bring her out of poverty some way.
So yea, there sure are a lot of different reasons that people are poor, but in this case, she hadn't learned from her mother or her grandmother, who had both used the same method of income to live in the same project housing. And she certainly didn't learn from her previous 8 babies, that # 9 was going to bring her out of poverty some way.
QuoteThis is kind of decision everyone can make. Most people just do not want to - emigrating in another country is not an easy "way out".
Please do not read anything more into my remarks than what I said. I am merely agreeing with the assertion that the majority of those born poor, remain poor. I am not speculating as to the reasons why. Lack of motivation (i.e. they don't want to) is certainly a possible explanation--but I don't have enough information to offer an informed opinion.
"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014
To everyone that answered no please read the following scenarios.
First off, those of you who answered ‘No’ keep saying stuff like: ' Well not everyone has the same options.' --' Its harder for some more than others.'--' Some people don't get the same education.'
Please take the following scenarios and tell me why it could not be applied to nearly everyone.
Scenario 1:
Poor Guy comes to America. He crosses the border with absolutely nothing but the clothes on his back. He is from Panama, speaks no English, is black, has only grade school education, and lost his left hand in a construction accident. He initially sleeps in the streets and homeless shelters.
Poor Guy gets a job in landscaping doing manual labor, which can be done with one hand believe it or not.
Poor Guy rents a room in low income housing.
Poor Guy eventually saves enough money to buy a $500 truck, a lawnmower and some pruners. Poor Guy now has his own landscaping business.
Poor Guy eventually works his way out of poverty.
Scenario2:
Same Poor Guy gets a job washing dishes.
Poor Guy eventually saves enough money to start a hotdog stand.
Poor Guy buys a second hotdog stand and splits profits of second hotdog stand with helper.
Poor Guy eventually works his way out of poverty.
Why can’t someone who lives in the ghetto, has a place to live, receives food stamps and receives other government handouts not apply scenario1 or scenario2.
I did not say that Poor Guy made it rich, only that he made it out of poverty.
Those of you who are ‘Nay sayers’ likely are not happy with where your at and therefore say, ‘If I can't do it, you can't do it.’
If you try and fail... try again.
First off, those of you who answered ‘No’ keep saying stuff like: ' Well not everyone has the same options.' --' Its harder for some more than others.'--' Some people don't get the same education.'
Please take the following scenarios and tell me why it could not be applied to nearly everyone.
Scenario 1:
Poor Guy comes to America. He crosses the border with absolutely nothing but the clothes on his back. He is from Panama, speaks no English, is black, has only grade school education, and lost his left hand in a construction accident. He initially sleeps in the streets and homeless shelters.
Poor Guy gets a job in landscaping doing manual labor, which can be done with one hand believe it or not.
Poor Guy rents a room in low income housing.
Poor Guy eventually saves enough money to buy a $500 truck, a lawnmower and some pruners. Poor Guy now has his own landscaping business.
Poor Guy eventually works his way out of poverty.
Scenario2:
Same Poor Guy gets a job washing dishes.
Poor Guy eventually saves enough money to start a hotdog stand.
Poor Guy buys a second hotdog stand and splits profits of second hotdog stand with helper.
Poor Guy eventually works his way out of poverty.
Why can’t someone who lives in the ghetto, has a place to live, receives food stamps and receives other government handouts not apply scenario1 or scenario2.
I did not say that Poor Guy made it rich, only that he made it out of poverty.
Those of you who are ‘Nay sayers’ likely are not happy with where your at and therefore say, ‘If I can't do it, you can't do it.’
If you try and fail... try again.
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----
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You might say a lot of things but I think I would be beyond stupid to think Luck, Who you know, where and to whom you are born to has no effect. I think it has a huge effect it actually helps shape who you become.
But I know the pull to feel special and great about one self usually outweighs reality for most.
From my personal experience I would say that the role of luck is often overestimated by some lazy people, and often used by them as the potential reason for wealth redistribution. After all, if we say that someone worked hard and become rich, it doesn't sound too good if you suggest to distribute their wealth. However if you say that they became rich by pure luck, then it sounds differently, like a casino winner.
And sometime luck is just another word for initiative. You might think your chance to get into the law school are low, but if you never try, there is no way you'd get in. The fortune favors those who are trying, and trying hard - because the majority is not trying, they just wait for favors coming to them. However it does not work - you will never find a $100 bill on a street if you spend your days at home watching Fox "news" or praying Jesus.
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Maybe you have never gotin a curve ball from life and thats good ( i hope you never do). But do you think you have contarol over every thing that can effect you?
Thats is what your saying.
There are things which are unpredictable, or hard to counter, and there are things which are not. If your fate is to be shot, this is hard to counter; even the world leaders got shot despite all the security. This, however, is not an excuse to skip on health insurance, or maintaining positive balance on your account.
There are priorities and decisions, and often the only difference between a poor and a rich person is in the way they make their decision and range their priorities. But there are consequences - and if you decided to drop health insurance to spend money on skydiving, and then got hit by a large medical bill, this is not bad luck - this is consequence.
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So do you belive we all have the same options?
Yes, we are, with a few exceptions (I cannot become the President, for example, no matter how hard I work), but those exceptions are pretty limited. Our starting positions are not the same, but this is only initial advantage, which can be compensated. I wonder what would Obama's parents say if someone told them their son is going to become the President of the United States. I bet they'd laugh their asses off, and call it crazy. Of course now you would say he was just lucky, just woke up some day and - oops - he's a President, right?
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To make choices you need options and to think it is an even playing ground would mean we all have the same options?
That to me sounds insane.
You have pretty much the same options. They might not be immediately available, but they are still there. For example, if you want to go to a law school but do not have money, you need to secure the funds first. Someone else, who has money, can skip this step, so you can say he has more options. However then he can say that he saved money by earing Raven for three years, which you spend skydiving and traveling around the country for boogies - and this again comes down to decisions both of you made at some moment earlier.
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The income for middle class fam. has increased by less then 10% in the past 50 years while prices have rocket even in the current hosuing slump. Look at the numbers they don't lie.
I got a larger increase just the last year. And I wonder whether I would get it if I didn't switch jobs - in my opinion it would be very unlikely. But for you it doesn't matter, you still would consider it luck. After all, only you are working hard, and everyone is just sitting at home and watching TV, while CTOs and CEOs from every business around stop by and begging them to join their company, right?
Basically what I'm saying is "If I can do it, you can do it too. If you didn't - blame yourself, not circumstances. Your situation is better than 80% of the rest of the world".
And what you're saying is that "If I cannot do it, than you cannot do it too - and if you did it was just pure luck, not your efforts".
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
In reply to -georgerussia- last post
Great answers!
Great answers!
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----
QuoteDo things to KEEP THEMSELVES poor?!
Some perspective.
Well, the article seems biased to me.
First, food. Things are not that cheaper in Trader Joe comparing to corner store, and things in Costco are only cheaper when you buy in huge quantities (and you cannot buy a single gallon of milk in our Costco - you have to buy two). This is, however, something you can bargain in corner store - I managed once to bargain a price even in Safeway (with a store manager) when I ordered a lot of stuff, so should be simpler in a corner store. Another way to save is to cooperate with other buyers - we're getting a very good deals on Russian food when we bring five people and buy the food for $500 or more total; you'd unlikely need five large jars of caviar for $100 even though it's a bargain, but one jar for $20 is fine.
Another question is that if you're poor, have no car and have no time to do a huge food shopping once a week - you must be really busy. Organic stuff - well, I am not buying organic stuff because I consider it too expensive, and I somehow do not expect poor to buy it either. It's the same as they complained they cannot shop in Whole Foods.
"The poor pay more in hassle: the calls from the bill collectors" - what about canceling your phone? I lived for a year without home phone, and if I didn't need a line for DSL, I'd get rid of it right away. For emergency a TracFone cell phone costs $20 and includes 60 minutes for 90 days, which is cheaper than one month cost of a phone line. Well, this is the same typical rant I have - you can have a phone, cell phone, cable TV, and a computer with Internet access, and you're still considered poor. And buying fried chicken wings for $9??? It was different.
Banks. "Lack of education" from banks is kinda ugly statement; if you just keep your eyes open, you'd learn about free checking accounts almost everywhere. Paying $3 to pay electric bill (where the offices accept cash) sounds more like convenience issue to me, and convenience costs money. A person who is 67 pays 10% to pay a phone bill to have it paid on time??? I don't get it.
Basically the whole article sounds very strange to me. "Poor" used to be when you lived under a bridge and your children were often hungry (and you were hungry permanently). Now it seems to mean not being able to buy $9 chicken wings and being unable to shop in Costco. So much for being poor.
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
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Please do not read anything more into my remarks than what I said. I am merely agreeing with the assertion that the majority of those born poor, remain poor. I am not speculating as to the reasons why. Lack of motivation (i.e. they don't want to) is certainly a possible explanation--but I don't have enough information to offer an informed opinion.
No, sir. You said it clear that I'm "exception which proved the rule". I'm saying there are no rules, and there are no exceptions. And I'm not an exception either.
My point is that if you do nothing to get yourself out of poverty - you WILL remain poor. If you do something, it will not guarantee to get you out of poverty - but you WILL be better than those who do nothing. And the majority apparently does not want to get out of poverty - they want you to come, and get them out of poverty, and they might react rather aggressively when you suggest them to do anything. Just challenge someone who is paying for his jumps but says he cannot afford health insurance, and you'll see it yourself.
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
Darius11 12
Lets get one thing straight first. Do you know me? I'll answer it for you NO. you have no clue of any thing in my life what i do or what i have done. You simply assume that because of my political opinions i must live a certain way or do certain things. As usual your facts are based on what you want to believe and not actual reality.
As a first generation immigrant i came to this country with a $1000 and it was my hard work and sacrifice that allowed me to take care of my mother, go to school, and become ceo of my own company. Even now that in the current two years where we have been fighting to stay out of bankruptcy i don't consider my self poor, i consider my self a success story and have never quit. So my opinions are not self serving, open your mind not every one thinks as you do.
I can give much more of a detailed background if it will get you out of your stereotyped way of thinking. My first job was when i was 12 i had two of them. Just a bit of info for you.
HOWEVER
As much as my ego would want to believe my own hype, and to think of my self as special. I know it is because of who i am(when i was made), and who i am was not my decision who i have tried to become is. But who i am and who i have become are forever related.
Even in the very nature that we are created accounting for genetics, environment, Geographic we all have different options in life and are dealt a different hand. It is just to dumb for any one to argue this. I don't know what else to tell you but i promise you there are people who try just as hard as Micheal Jordan did but there is only one Michale Jordan. If our excellence and the best is somewhat reliant on the luck of the draw why would you deny that the luck applies to all of us?
Again as i said in the first post. I think every case should be looked at on an individual bases. I understand that there are poor people that are to blame because of the decisions they made or there lack of forward thinking. However i think these are people in the minority, i think the majority is willing to work, willing to learn and would if they had the opportunity.
As a first generation immigrant i came to this country with a $1000 and it was my hard work and sacrifice that allowed me to take care of my mother, go to school, and become ceo of my own company. Even now that in the current two years where we have been fighting to stay out of bankruptcy i don't consider my self poor, i consider my self a success story and have never quit. So my opinions are not self serving, open your mind not every one thinks as you do.
I can give much more of a detailed background if it will get you out of your stereotyped way of thinking. My first job was when i was 12 i had two of them. Just a bit of info for you.
HOWEVER
As much as my ego would want to believe my own hype, and to think of my self as special. I know it is because of who i am(when i was made), and who i am was not my decision who i have tried to become is. But who i am and who i have become are forever related.
Even in the very nature that we are created accounting for genetics, environment, Geographic we all have different options in life and are dealt a different hand. It is just to dumb for any one to argue this. I don't know what else to tell you but i promise you there are people who try just as hard as Micheal Jordan did but there is only one Michale Jordan. If our excellence and the best is somewhat reliant on the luck of the draw why would you deny that the luck applies to all of us?
Again as i said in the first post. I think every case should be looked at on an individual bases. I understand that there are poor people that are to blame because of the decisions they made or there lack of forward thinking. However i think these are people in the minority, i think the majority is willing to work, willing to learn and would if they had the opportunity.
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
Darius11 12
QuoteMy point is that if you do nothing to get yourself out of poverty - you WILL remain poor. If you do something, it will not guarantee to get you out of poverty - but you WILL be better than those who do nothing.
So what the excuse for the people who you clearly admit now that exist? The ones that do try but keep on failing? You did just say it will not guarantee so what is there excuse?
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
billvon 2,421
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> If you do something, it will not guarantee to get you out of poverty - but
>you WILL be better than those who do nothing.
Better in what way? On the George scale of goodness? Perhaps. In terms of income? Perhaps not. Someone who goes into tens of thousands of dollars of debt to get an education, then can't get a job, is arguably worse off than someone who just stays at their job flipping burgers. (This is NOT to say that it's a bad idea, but there are indeed people who lose bigtime when they try to improve themselves.)
>And the majority apparently does not want to get out of poverty - they
>want you to come, and get them out of poverty . . .
That's a completely unsupported assumption. There are people who are simply too dumb to get out of poverty, and pretty much have to live on the generosity of others/the government. (And I am glad I live in a society where such generosity exists.)
>you WILL be better than those who do nothing.
Better in what way? On the George scale of goodness? Perhaps. In terms of income? Perhaps not. Someone who goes into tens of thousands of dollars of debt to get an education, then can't get a job, is arguably worse off than someone who just stays at their job flipping burgers. (This is NOT to say that it's a bad idea, but there are indeed people who lose bigtime when they try to improve themselves.)
>And the majority apparently does not want to get out of poverty - they
>want you to come, and get them out of poverty . . .
That's a completely unsupported assumption. There are people who are simply too dumb to get out of poverty, and pretty much have to live on the generosity of others/the government. (And I am glad I live in a society where such generosity exists.)
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So what the excuse for the people who you clearly admit now that exist? The ones that do try but keep on failing? You did just say it will not guarantee so what is there excuse?
They do not need excuse if they try and learn from their mistakes. This is normal education process, nobody succeed in everything they were trying. And yes, some things will fail no matter what you do simply because humans make mistakes.
As for me, I respect those who are trying, even if they fail, and I help them. I do not respect those who can, but who are NOT trying, and I do not help them. The difference here is giving a man some fish vs teaching him fishing.
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
Darius11 12
QuoteAs for me, I respect those who are trying, even if they fail, and I help them. I do not respect those who can, but who are NOT trying, and I do not help them. The difference here is giving a man some fish vs teaching him fishing.
I agree with that.
I don't think any one respects a person who does not try.
To me it seemed you were trying to say that all or even most poor people are poor and its there own fault, and there is no other contributing factor to them being poor other then bad decision making. my misunderstanding.........?
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
rushmc 18
As for me, I respect those who are trying, even if they fail, and I help them. I do not respect those who can, but who are NOT trying, and I do not help them. The difference here is giving a man some fish vs teaching him fishing.
So why do you support a government that does not agree with you?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
Darius11 12
QuoteI respect those who are trying, even if they fail
Because there are those who want to and try but cant.
Its called being a great country and taking care of the ones who cant. Some time the ones that wont abuse the system, but we can not kill the system that helps the people who cant for the few who wont.
Is that a runon sentence? I screw that up all the time.
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
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Again as i said in the first post. I think every case should be looked at on an individual bases. I understand that there are poor people that are to blame because of the decisions they made or there lack of forward thinking. However i think these are people in the minority, i think the majority is willing to work, willing to learn and would if they had the opportunity.
The "majority" you are speaking of can get a job I assure you. They just don't want to do the jobs that are available to them. I guaranty that there are plenty of shitty jobs out there that anyone can do, and guess what you can even work two of those shitty jobs if you so chose.
The fact is there are options. If you can get a shitty job, what is to stop you from eventually investing in an education, or a business, etc...
To say that they don't have the opportunity is plain ridiculous. Why don't they have the "opportunity" you speak of?
Before you answer, ask yourself if it is just another open-ended excuse like the rest of them.
And to your other reply, 'What about those that continue to try and fail.'
I say, they should just give up and die... Get real man. Even your signature line is depressing.
If you try and fail... try again until you fucking succeed or die trying.
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----
Most can always find someone else to blame
You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!
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