If a person believes in evolution . . .

[futuredivot 0]

But that includes that whole "Deity" and "Infallibility" clauses that muddy the water

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[Remster 24]

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Don't confuse the Church with the Religion.

Actually, both are one in the same.

Now, Faith and Religion, or Faith and Church, then yes, you're right: different animals.

Remster

[SpeedRacer 1]

Creationism: What's a Catholic to do?

http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac1007.asp

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[pirana 0]

Do church officials have some set of rules on this stuff? Is it official that if a person believes in evolution they do not recognize that person as Christian?

How about using birth control?

How about not believing in all of the stories that, when literally interpreted are just plain silly?

So if I were to say I thought the whole Noah's Ark story was a farcical fanciful fairy tale, would the church elders officially not recognize me as Christian?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[lost_n_confuzd 0]

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I'd be inclined to think that the power mongering church hierarchy was more likely not really Christian. Don't confuse the Church with the Religion.

Nevertheless, according to your logic, people back in the day who believed the earth was not the center of the universe were not Christians.

Can't believe both, right?

How does that statement differ from any other Chrisitan who believes in Science?

[futuredivot 0]

Because Christianity is basically just three points. The divinity of Christ, the immaculate conception, and the Bible and the inerrant, infallible word of God. The earth as center of the universe isn't biblical, creationism is.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[SpeedRacer 1]

depends on what you mean by "creationism".

If you mean, as we say in the Profession of Faith "We believe in one God, the Father the Almighty, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, of all things seen and unseen." then yeah, Christians believe that.

What particular physical mechanisms took place during the process of that creation is for science to explore, not religion. God said "Let there be light" doesn't negate wave theory either.

Speed Racer
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[billvon 2,426]

>Because Christianity is basically just three points. The divinity of Christ,
>the immaculate conception, and the Bible and the inerrant, infallible word
>of God.

There are several sects of Christianity who would disagree with that! Which is fine; no one has to believe anything.

>The earth as center of the universe isn't biblical, creationism is.

One of the two creation stories in the Bible makes it pretty clear that the Earth was created first, and the "heavens" (including the sun) were created much later.

[lost_n_confuzd 0]

Quote

Because Christianity is basically just three points. The divinity of Christ, the immaculate conception, and the Bible and the inerrant, infallible word of God. The earth as center of the universe isn't biblical, creationism is.

Evolution with divine intervention? Or do you take the bible at face value?

I've also heard a few arguements from your fellow "all or nothing" Christians that Skydiving is a sin because we are putting our bodies in an unnecessary risk for pleasure.

Of course I don't believe that, seems like you would though. I mean, you've already stated that I can't be a Christian because I believe in evolution.

Again, by your standards - How can you be a Christian and Skydive?

[Shotgun 1]

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. . . is it acceptable to agree with thier core beliefs regarding their descension, and refer to their ancestors as monkeys and gorillas?


If not, then WHY not . . . after all, by doing so, you are confirming their beliefs, are you not?

If a person said that they believed (or did not believe) in evolution, I'd be curious to know what his interpretation of "evolution" was before making any assumptions about any of his other beliefs. People seem to have vastly different interpretations of what evolution means, and many who strongly believe or disbelieve don't actually seem to know much about the scientific theory of evolution.

(Can't say that I'm much of an expert on evolution myself; this is just an observation I've had in watching people discuss the subject.)

[wmw999 2,146]

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Really it's an all or nothing religion-most are. You can agree or disagree but you can't half agree and still be a true member, and calling yourself something doesn't make it so.

The problem here is with some sects of Christians trying to take the whole name for themselves.

It's as though I were to say that only belly flyers were true skydivers, and everyone else was a parachutist.

It is people who say that one has to believe in every word in the Bible. And it was people who decided which books belong in the Bible, and which ones don't. And those people disagree -- therefore we have differences among the various canonical texts of the Christian Bible (e.g. orthodox, catholic, protestant).

Christian is a big word. It's big enough for all of the people who think they are, and, ya know -- I'll bet that in the end what we call ourselves doesn't matter as much as what we believe, and how well we use the time on Earth.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[lost_n_confuzd 0]

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(Can't say that I'm much of an expert on evolution myself; this is just an observation I've had in watching people discuss the subject.)

I disagree, for the most part it's pretty black and white.

People who believe in human evolution believe that modern humans evolved from apes.

Those who don't believe in evolution believe that humans did not evolve from apes.

I'm not an expert either, human evolution is a topic that interest me so much that I've visited a few places like Dmansi and some other interesting dig sites.

[billvon 2,426]

>People who believe in human evolution believe that modern humans
>evolved from apes.

Most people (and all scientists) who believe in evolution believe that modern humans and apes evolved from the same common ancestor. That ancestor was not what we now consider an ape.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

With all due respect, since humans and chimpanzees diverged more recently than the gorilla/(chimp + human) split, if we were to run into that common ancestor we would see an animal that would be immediately recognizable as an "ape". It would not be any currently living ape species (or even genus) of course, but it would be an ape, likely looking like a mix of chimp and gorilla. In fact, humans, chimps, gorillas, and orangutans all belong to the same taxonomic family (the Hominidae, or "great apes"), and the most recent common ancestor is necessarily also Hominidae.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[lost_n_confuzd 0]

Quote

>People who believe in human evolution believe that modern humans
>evolved from apes.

Most people (and all scientists) who believe in evolution believe that modern humans and apes evolved from the same common ancestor. That ancestor was not what we now consider an ape.

Where did you hear that from?

Humans did not evolve from any modern ape, but we did evolve from an ape (humans are great apes along with with chimps, gorillas and orangutans). We all have a common "ape" ancestor.

I may wrong, I'll double check it when I get back from school just make sure. But don't take my word for it, look it up.

[BaronVonBoll 0]

Quote

With all due respect, since humans and chimpanzees diverged more recently than the gorilla/(chimp + human) split, if we were to run into that common ancestor we would see an animal that would be immediately recognizable as an "ape". It would not be any currently living ape species (or even genus) of course, but it would be an ape, likely looking like a mix of chimp and gorilla. In fact, humans, chimps, gorillas, and orangutans all belong to the same taxonomic family (the Hominidae, or "great apes"), and the most recent common ancestor is necessarily also Hominidae.

Don

I believe the term is...protohuman not sure though

[BikerBabe 0]

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Quote

>See, no apology needed - just a short, but according to Michell, a factual
>answer.

Right. And if someone said your girlfriend was a bitch, I'm sure you would assume that they were just commenting on her evolutionary relationship to female canines. You should be fine with that, right? No apology needed.

>And yes - her husband freely admits that they believe in evolution.
>Which completely negates the claim that they are Christian.

Plenty of Christians believe in evolution. Why, some even believe that gays should not be put to death, and that people with glasses should be allowed in church!

Nope.

People that THINK they are Christians, but are not, believe those things.

turtle, shall i quote someone who might disagree with your judgment? How about Job 38:1-18?

Quote

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:

2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel
with words without knowledge?

3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.

5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?

6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-

7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,

9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,

10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,

11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt'?

12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,

13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?

14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.

15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.

16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?

17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death?

18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.

So are you saying you know the HOW of creation? really?

Were you there?

Don't tell me i'm not a Christian because i am humble enough to know that i DON"T know the mind and will and abilities of God. Don't tell me I'm not a Christian because i believe that science is a God-given way for us to draw closer to Him.

Were YOU there?

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[billvon 2,426]

>if we were to run into that common ancestor we would see an animal that
>would be immediately recognizable as an "ape". It would not be any
>currently living ape species . . .

Agreed there.

The misunderstanding that often arises comes from the (mis)conception that "we evolved from apes" meaning we evolved from a present form of ape. From that misconception comes the question "if we evolved from apes, why are there still apes?"

As you pointed out, although we evolved from an ancestor that looked a lot like an ape - and would be classified as an ape under our current taxonomy - that species no longer exists. There were a lot of descendants from that species; the three surviving descendants are chimps, bonobos and humans.

[turtlespeed 212]

Quote

Quote

Quote

>See, no apology needed - just a short, but according to Michell, a factual
>answer.

Right. And if someone said your girlfriend was a bitch, I'm sure you would assume that they were just commenting on her evolutionary relationship to female canines. You should be fine with that, right? No apology needed.

>And yes - her husband freely admits that they believe in evolution.
>Which completely negates the claim that they are Christian.

Plenty of Christians believe in evolution. Why, some even believe that gays should not be put to death, and that people with glasses should be allowed in church!

Nope.

People that THINK they are Christians, but are not, believe those things.

turtle, shall i quote someone who might disagree with your judgment? How about Job 38:1-18?

Quote

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:

2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel
with words without knowledge?

3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.

5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?

6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-

7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,

9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,

10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,

11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt'?

12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,

13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?

14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.

15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.

16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?

17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death?

18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.

So are you saying you know the HOW of creation? really?

Were you there?

Don't tell me i'm not a Christian because i am humble enough to know that i DON"T know the mind and will and abilities of God. Don't tell me I'm not a Christian because i believe that science is a God-given way for us to draw closer to Him.

Were YOU there?

As I am now, no.

All I have is His word.

Same reference book you quoted from:

From the Book of Genesis:

24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so.

25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

So as you can see, it is clearly stated that the anmals have a separate evolutionary rule set than humans do.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,426]

>So as you can see, it is clearly stated that the anmals have a
>separate evolutionary rule set than humans do.

Although I am afraid that Genesis 2 clearly states that the order of creation is man, _then_ animals. So your order is a bit off there.

[turtlespeed 212]

Quote

>So as you can see, it is clearly stated that the anmals have a
>separate evolutionary rule set than humans do.

Although I am afraid that Genesis 2 clearly states that the order of creation is man, _then_ animals. So your order is a bit off there.

He makes Adam from dust, plants in the garden, then the livestock. Then there is a long deep sleep - how long? Doesn't say.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,426]

>He makes Adam from dust, plants in the garden, then the livestock.

Again, I am afraid not. Genesis 1 clearly states that the order of creation is:

Day 1 - light and dark
Day 2 - separation of water and heaven
Day 3 - separation of water and land, plants appear
Day 4 - sun, moon stars
Day 5 - birds and fish
Day 6 - land animals, THEN man

[SpeedRacer 1]

The Bible is not a scientific text.

Since it was inspired by God, there can, by definition, be no "peer-reviewed" articles in it.

Speed Racer
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[georgerussia 0]

Quote

. . . is it acceptable to agree with thier core beliefs regarding their descension, and refer to their ancestors as monkeys and gorillas?

Same as for the people who believe in the Bible - should we agree with their core beliefs, and refer to their ancestors as dirt (for a man) and male rib (for a woman)?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[yourmomma 0]

Same as for the people who believe in the Bible - should we agree with their core beliefs, and refer to their ancestors as dirt (for a man) and male rib (for a woman)?
_____________________________
And as we were created in his image god is actually dirt. Me thinks you're on to something.