Gary73 8 #1 August 4, 2009 Specifically those who believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, true in every detail. How do you explain the story of the tower of Babel from Genesis? 11:3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime (tar) had they for mortar. 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. In other words, this passage states that God himself believed that it was possible for people to build a tower high enough to allow them to physically enter heaven, which would therefore have to be a physical place in the sky, and no more than about 500 feet up, since that's about the highest that it's possible to build a tower using bricks and tar. We now know beyond any possible doubt that if Heaven exists at all, it most definitely is not a physical place that's 500 feet above the ground. Any God worthy of the name would also know this, of course, but Bronze Age peasants wouldn't have, so it seems pretty clear that this story was invented by peasants, not related by any type of God. And if there's even a single story in the Bible that's not the literal word of God, then the entire document is open to question, right? So my question to Fundamentalists is: How do you explain all of this? "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #2 August 4, 2009 OK, not a Fundie; but let me ask a question first: Did you ever watch Mork & Mindy?" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #3 August 4, 2009 QuoteSpecifically those who believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, true in every detail. How do you explain the story of the tower of Babel from Genesis? 11:3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime (tar) had they for mortar. 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. In other words, this passage states that God himself believed that it was possible for people to build a tower high enough to allow them to physically enter heaven, which would therefore have to be a physical place in the sky, and no more than about 500 feet up, since that's about the highest that it's possible to build a tower using bricks and tar. We now know beyond any possible doubt that if Heaven exists at all, it most definitely is not a physical place that's 500 feet above the ground. Any God worthy of the name would also know this, of course, but Bronze Age peasants wouldn't have, so it seems pretty clear that this story was invented by peasants, not related by any type of God. And if there's even a single story in the Bible that's not the literal word of God, then the entire document is open to question, right? So my question to Fundamentalists is: How do you explain all of this? It's simple. 1) God saw what they were trying to do, a task that could never be completed. 2) He taught them a lesson.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gary73 8 #4 August 4, 2009 QuoteIt's simple. 1) God saw what they were trying to do, a task that could never be completed. 2) He taught them a lesson. That doesn't make any sense. 11:6 states clearly that God thought the tower was doable. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #5 August 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteIt's simple. 1) God saw what they were trying to do, a task that could never be completed. 2) He taught them a lesson. That doesn't make any sense. 11:6 states clearly that God thought the tower was doable. Umm - No - He thought it a waste of time and His resorces.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #6 August 4, 2009 Quote That doesn't make any sense. 11:6 states clearly that God thought the tower was doable. Quote Umm - No - He thought it a waste of time and His resorces. So, God was being political tactful?We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #7 August 4, 2009 QuoteQuote That doesn't make any sense. 11:6 states clearly that God thought the tower was doable. Quote Umm - No - He thought it a waste of time and His resorces. So, God was being political tactful? No - this is a translation - Read it in Greek and see the difference. Translations are like history books. Each one is, in the end, an opinion.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #8 August 4, 2009 Quote No - this is a translation - Read it in Greek and see the difference. Translations are like history books. Each one is, in the end, an opinion. I can see that. So this part of Genesis is originally written in Greek?We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gary73 8 #9 August 4, 2009 QuoteUmm - No - He thought it a waste of time and His resorces. Where does it say anything about it being a waste? "...and now nothing will be restrained from them..." makes it pretty clear that He believed that they'd make it. QuoteNo - this is a translation - Read it in Greek and see the difference. The King James Version was written by the leading Biblical scholars of the time, based on their translations of Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, etc. documents. But if you have an original Greek source, that would be interesting to see. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #10 August 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote That doesn't make any sense. 11:6 states clearly that God thought the tower was doable. Quote Umm - No - He thought it a waste of time and His resorces. So, God was being political tactful? No - this is a translation - Read it in Greek and see the difference. Translations are like history books. Each one is, in the end, an opinion. Likewise we should dismiss anyone quoting any English bible as being the word of God. OK, Got it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 0 #11 August 4, 2009 First.... Genesis was written in Hebrew not Greek or Koine Greek (different than modern Greek) it was almost like slang Greek of the time. Second...... I don't see the point in this question? Those who do not believe in the Bible and God are always wanting to challenge it but normally are the ones asking Christians not to discuss it or "push" it on them. This conversation will never end the way you want it to.... the truth is that the Hebrew does say it differently and the original KJV is very flawed. The NKJV is much better. THe most accurate literal translation is the NASB. The point to all of this is you are not going to convince me of anything just as I will never convince you of anything. Just because one believes the Bible is literal does not mean all of it is. Certain books are written in metaphoric language i.e. Revelation (apocolypitic) and very metaphoric. If you really want to discuss and break down the Bible you have to know how to take an exegetical look at it otherwise the argument stems from random observations and thoughts and in most skeptics cases, with a motive to disprove in some way. As for the idea of scholars... there are plenty on both sides. Some even that took the time to get in to the Bible that deeply to disprove it and came out a believer i.e. CS LewisLife is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,677 #12 August 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote That doesn't make any sense. 11:6 states clearly that God thought the tower was doable. Quote Umm - No - He thought it a waste of time and His resorces. So, God was being political tactful? No - this is a translation - Read it in Greek and see the difference. Translations are like history books. Each one is, in the end, an opinion. Did Moses write in Greek?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 0 #13 August 4, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote That doesn't make any sense. 11:6 states clearly that God thought the tower was doable. Quote Umm - No - He thought it a waste of time and His resorces. So, God was being political tactful? No - this is a translation - Read it in Greek and see the difference. Translations are like history books. Each one is, in the end, an opinion. Did Moses write in Greek? No read my above post Kall.... Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #14 August 4, 2009 Nope, not as far as I know but Greek and Aramaic translations of the Hebrew were heavily relied on for English translations. I suspect that you knew that but just felt the need to contribute to drift.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #15 August 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote That doesn't make any sense. 11:6 states clearly that God thought the tower was doable. Quote Umm - No - He thought it a waste of time and His resorces. So, God was being political tactful? No - this is a translation - Read it in Greek and see the difference. Translations are like history books. Each one is, in the end, an opinion. Likewise we should dismiss anyone quoting any English bible as being the word of God. OK, Got it. Dismiss what you want - it makes me no difference - besides being sad for you.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #16 August 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteIt's simple. 1) God saw what they were trying to do, a task that could never be completed. 2) He taught them a lesson. That doesn't make any sense. 11:6 states clearly that God thought the tower was doable. Umm - No - He thought it a waste of time and His resorces. I read that differently. I read it as not only did he think it was possible, but it was a challenge to his authority to decide who will and will not be allowed into heaven. If "mankind" through the use of a common language and learning from it can then be so bold as to literally build a staircase to heaven, then he (God) needs to find a way to screw that up so that the riff-raff can't just come in. So he curses mankind with different languages so people can't communicate effectively and ever try to do this again. Old Testament God is a control freak.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #17 August 4, 2009 Quote Umm - No - He thought it a waste of time and His resorces. A bit like a belief in a supernatural boogeyman. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #18 August 4, 2009 QuoteWe now know beyond any possible doubt that if Heaven exists at all, it most definitely is not a physical place that's 500 feet above the ground. Heaven might have been a lot lower back in those days. Once man has invented airplanes, God had to raise the ceiling on heaven to keep it out of the way of aircraft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gary73 8 #19 August 5, 2009 Quote Andrewwhyte - Likewise we should dismiss anyone quoting any English bible as being the word of God. OK, Got it. Quote Rstanley0312 - THe most accurate literal translation is the NASB. Checked that one out; same story, just in Modern English. Quote Rstanley0312 - The point to all of this is you are not going to convince me of anything just as I will never convince you of anything. Actually I was not born into my current way of thinking. I arrived here after literally decades of thought on the matter. So maybe there's hope for the rest of you! Quote Rstanley0312 - Just because one believes the Bible is literal does not mean all of it is. Actually that's exectly what real Fundamentalists do believe: that every single word in the KJV Bible is the literal word of the one and only God. So, not to squelch conversation, but they're the ones I really wanted to hear from. Quote Quade - ... Old Testament God is a control freak. Yeah, He really lightened up in the New Testament. Quote JohnRich - Heaven might have been a lot lower back in those days. Once man has invented airplanes, God had to raise the ceiling on heaven to keep it out of the way of aircraft. So even God is afraid of the FAA? "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #20 August 5, 2009 QuoteSpecifically those who believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, true in every detail. How do you explain the story of the tower of Babel from Genesis? 11:3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime (tar) had they for mortar. 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. In other words, this passage states that God himself believed that it was possible for people to build a tower high enough to allow them to physically enter heaven, which would therefore have to be a physical place in the sky, and no more than about 500 feet up, since that's about the highest that it's possible to build a tower using bricks and tar. We now know beyond any possible doubt that if Heaven exists at all, it most definitely is not a physical place that's 500 feet above the ground. Any God worthy of the name would also know this, of course, but Bronze Age peasants wouldn't have, so it seems pretty clear that this story was invented by peasants, not related by any type of God. And if there's even a single story in the Bible that's not the literal word of God, then the entire document is open to question, right? So my question to Fundamentalists is: How do you explain all of this? As I recall from a study of Genesis, God will confuse and confound any organized effort by mankind that emphasizes human potential. Therefore, God saw the people organizing and believing in themselves and their own power. The Old Testament was a time of Law. The New Testament time is of Grace. These are the end times and God is giving us every opportunity to surrender to His will. Luke 11:2-4 (NKJV) So He said to them, “When you pray, say: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins, For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one.” "The chief end of man is to glorify God and worship Him forever," author unknown. The soul is the mind, the emotions and the will. The proper choice for salvation of the soul is to choose Christ. Note: the headquarters for the European Union is built on the design of the Tower of Babel. http://www.despatch.cth.com.au/Despatch/Despatch15_2_28-37.pdfLook for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 0 #21 August 5, 2009 Quote Rstanley0312 - THe most accurate literal translation is the NASB. Quote Checked that one out; same story, just in Modern English. As I said you need to take an exegetical look at it that includes reading the whole chapter. Quote Rstanley0312 - The point to all of this is you are not going to convince me of anything just as I will never convince you of anything. Quote Actually I was not born into my current way of thinking. I arrived here after literally decades of thought on the matter. So maybe there's hope for the rest of you! Thought means nothing if it is not backed up by actual study and I was not born in to how I feel or think about the matter either. Quote Rstanley0312 - Just because one believes the Bible is literal does not mean all of it is. Quote Actually that's exectly what real Fundamentalists do believe: that every single word in the KJV Bible is the literal word of the one and only God. So, not to squelch conversation, but they're the ones I really wanted to hear from. That is not true.... maybe some but a large percentage of Fundamentalists take the Bible for what it is. If the book is written in literal language then yes it is what it says but if it is Hebrew poetry or metaphoric language than that's what it is. Your statement that a Fundy believes it all to be literal word for word is simply false. Again, back to the whole thought verses actual study..... There is a SMALL group of Christians that are "King James Only" people (mostly Baptist) which is crazy in my opinion but that is not the large majority of Fundamentalists. Quote So even God is afraid of the FAA? This I fear may be true.....Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gary73 8 #22 August 5, 2009 RonD1120 - So God wants us to ignore our ability to understand the Universe and spend all our time praising him? That's pretty depressing for both sides of the relationship. Kind of like an Instructor keeping a student on static line forever, no matter how well he does, just so the instructor can get paid to jump. Sorry, I can't buy that one. Any God who loves us would want us to reach our full potential, just like a skydiving Instructor, a parent, or even a pet owner. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #23 August 5, 2009 Quote Note: the headquarters for the European Union is built on the design of the Tower of Babel. http://www.despatch.cth.com.au/Despatch/Despatch15_2_28-37.pdf Thank you for that! I love conspiracy theory wing nut crack pot crap and that's by far the most entertaining piece I've seen in quite some time.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gary73 8 #24 August 5, 2009 Rstanley0312 - Like most Christians, you seem to want to choose which portions of the Bible to take literally and which ones to interpret in other ways. That's fine with me, especially since you basically seem to be agreeing with me that the Tower of Babel story can't be literally true. My original question was addressed to the hard-core Fundamentalists (Would "Literalists" be a better term?) who really do believe that every passage in the Bible must be taken as literally true. We haven't heard from any of them yet. Any takers? "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CornishChris 5 #25 August 5, 2009 Does this make Nimmo from Babylon in Empuria the antichrist? CJP Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
