StreetScooby 5 #26 June 20, 2009 +1We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #27 June 20, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteSo... while it may be that a slave's great-great-great-grandchildren may not have standing to claim reparations for themselves, it may also be that the slave's estate does have standing to claim reparations on behalf of the estate. Sure. And they're welcome to sue the former owner, or his estate, for the wages. I imagine the damages claimed as a result of human enslavement would extend beyond mere "back wages". In any event, some of those slave owners' assets can probably be traced to their own heirs' assets existing today. Imagine the seizure of those assets in execution and satisfaction of judgments. Lotta damned unhappy good ole boys, I dare say. QuoteIf one statistic captures the persistence of racial inequity in the United States, it is net worth, also called wealth, equity or assets. If you want to know your net worth, add up everything you own and then subtract your total amount of outstanding debt. When we do this for white and minority households across America, incredible differences emerge. Overall, the typical white family enjoys a net worth more than seven times higher than its non-white counterpart. (Latinos, a very diverse group, fare slightly better than African-Americans, but still fall far short of whites on this indicator. So do Asians.) This disparity is far greater than racial differences in education, employment or income. To make matters worse, this "equity inequity" between blacks and whites has grown in the decades since the civil rights triumphs of the 1960s. That is because differential earnings alone cannot explain racial differences in wealth levels. In every income bracket, blacks own less wealth than whites. The typical black family earning $50,000 per year owns less than half the assets of its white counterparts. Among the wealthiest Americans, BET's Johnson and Oprah Winfrey and are the only African-Americans on the Forbes annual list of the 400 richest people in the United States, and they are both at the lower end of the list. This equity inequity is, in part, the result of the head start that whites have enjoyed in accumulating and passing on assets. Simply put, it takes money to make money. Whites not only earn more now, they have always earned more than African-Americans -- a lot more. Wealth differences, in turn, feed upon these long-term income differences. Some researchers estimate that up to 80 percent of lifetime wealth accumulation results from family gifts in one form or another passed down from generation to generation. These gifts range from a down payment on a first home to a free college education to a bequest upon the death of a parent. Over the long run, small initial differences in wealth holdings spin out of control. Estate and gift taxes are about the only social policies left that act as a small restraint on the runaway train of wealth inequality. http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/04/05/black_wealth/stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #28 June 20, 2009 Quote+1 QuoteWow. Simply, wow. Quote+1 Dude, that is deep. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #29 June 20, 2009 What about those who died or lost all their estate in order to fight for the Union? What about those in the South who fought for the Confederates and yet never owned slaves? What about reparations for those who fought for the Colonies so we would even have a country? I could get filthy rich off this scheme Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #30 June 20, 2009 QuoteI could get filthy rich off this scheme Go for it. Just trace all the applicable lines, figure out exactly what your grievances are, sort out who you have those grievances against, and file your lawsuit. Shortly after the civil war, the union confiscated the personal estate of a southerner and used it to create a cemetery for union soldiers. No confederates were buried there. It was sort of done as a final "up yours" for daring to fight. About 20 years later, the son of that man successfully sued the federal government for compensation under the takings clause of the 5th amendment. I think everyone should have the right to sue for recompense of their grievances. If their grievances are legitimate, then they will win in court. If they're not, then they'll waste their time and money trying.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billeisele 122 #31 June 21, 2009 life was good till they started the War of Northern Aggression now they all want to move South and retire, join town council and the first thing they say is, "you have it all wrong, this is how we did it up north" well if things were so good up north then why the heck did you leave and come down here? and now you want to bring your ideas and try and screw up what we've got?!?! Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #32 June 21, 2009 That's funny-Several years ago I was explaining to a neighbor how when his cats ventured from his property to the top of my car, they transitioned from "Pets" to "Targets". After the 3rd or 4th "Well back in Ohio we..." I told him-I85 has a northbound lane-I'll help you pack.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #33 June 22, 2009 Quote life was good till they started the War of Northern Aggression now they all want to move South and retire, join town council and the first thing they say is, "you have it all wrong, this is how we did it up north" well if things were so good up north then why the heck did you leave and come down here? and now you want to bring your ideas and try and screw up what we've got?!?! I just want you to know my family fought on both sides. Only my Great, Great, Great grandfather was remembered for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #34 June 29, 2009 QuoteIts funny how the fucking idiots who are unable to look more than one generation into the past in regards to what constitutes legitimate reparations/apologies/etc are the same fucking idiots who are the first to quote a declaration on a piece of paper from a long time ago when any other issue comes up When you consider the Declaration is about the now and the future, not just the past...then it makes tons more sense. If, however, you are stuck on some revenge kick and want something for nothing... Your stance makes perfect sense."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #35 June 29, 2009 Quote[the two paragraphs prior to your excerpt] The federal estate tax, which has been in place since 1916, affects only the richest 1.4 percent of the deceased, and there are only a relative handful of African-Americans in that group. As the law currently stands, the first $675,000 of individuals' net estate value is exempt from tax. It's $1.35 million for couples. A 1997 change in the law will gradually increase the exemption until it reaches $1 million for individuals and $2 million for couples in 2006. Exemptions are even higher for businesses and small farms. The number of African-Americans who would benefit from estate-tax repeal is infinitesimally small. But repeal would be a windfall for the wealthiest whites in America. It would only exacerbate the black-white asset gap. http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/04/05/black_wealth/ Do you feel the estate tax is another one of those "blatantly racist laws" you keep talking about? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #36 June 29, 2009 a low/ineffective inheritance tax is a form of affirmative action for the majority of whites stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #37 June 29, 2009 maybe in your family. It certainly doesn't affect my family. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #38 June 29, 2009 Quote a low/ineffective inheritance tax is a form of affirmative action for the majority of whites Failing to take something away from people is favoring them? (is it desirable to take things away from people)-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #39 June 29, 2009 Quote Quote a low/ineffective inheritance tax is a form of affirmative action for the majority of whites Failing to take something away from people is favoring them? (is it desirable to take things away from people) and you agree that it is ok for the historic profits of slavery to be laundered from one white generation to the next (will the madoff kids keep their ill gotten gains)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,463 #40 June 29, 2009 >will the madoff kids keep their ill gotten gains . . . ?? I have a friend who had a lot of money with him; she lost it all. Which "ill gotten gains" are you referring to? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #41 June 29, 2009 Quote (will the madoff kids keep their ill gotten gains) The short answer is: probably not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #42 June 30, 2009 Quote and you agree that it is ok for the historic profits of slavery to be laundered from one white generation to the next (will the madoff kids keep their ill gotten gains) What about white, asian, hispanic, or even african families that are starting the first or second American generation of their family (having inherited nothing) and have made a name for themselves? Are their estates to be considered laundered historic profits of slavery? Would your system of reparations consider the difference between old and new money? Or is everyone with a net worth greater than the net worth of the average black person in America at moment X responsible for paying out? Or how about just all the white people? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #43 June 30, 2009 Quote So... while it may be that a slave's great-great-great-grandchildren may not have standing to claim reparations for themselves, it may also be that the slave's estate does have standing to claim reparations on behalf of the estate. I wonder how it would work in US. It would be hard to claim "lost wages" because slave labor was legal at that time (and even it they could, it's probably out of statute of limitation). They still might be able to claim "unrealized gain" (wrong word probably, no idea how it's called in US law system), but only if those are transferable to estate - is it in US? Definitely not a case in Russia - like pain and suffering, your heir cannot sue for your unrealized gain. Is it different in US? Another issue, of course, is to who is to be liable. I didn't study the subject, but as far as I remember, most of those African slaves were sold by other Africans to Spanish, British and Dutch, so it's hard for me to understand why the USA should be exclusively responsible for such. Especially after the Civil War, when a lot of white people lost their lives to free blacks from slavery. Note that they still have slavery in some countries in Africa, so one could speculate the descendants of those who were sold are doing much better comparing to descendants of those who weren't.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloudseeker2001 0 #44 June 30, 2009 Not no........but hell fucking no!!!!!!!!!!!!You find me a slave, and I will spend the rest of my life looking for a slave owner! "Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance, others mean and rueful of the western dream" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloudseeker2001 0 #45 June 30, 2009 Quote Absolutely. I believe any person who was formerly held as a slave is entitled to reparations from the person who was their owner, equal to the market value of the labor that was taken from them during their slavery. I think that any US citizen who can show that he was held as a slave ought to sue his former owner for the wages he (or she) deserves. Makes good sense! "Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance, others mean and rueful of the western dream" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #46 June 30, 2009 Quote Would your system of reparations consider the difference between old and new money? Or is everyone with a net worth greater than the net worth of the average black person in America at moment X responsible for paying out? Or how about just all the white people? my system of 'reparations' would start with a decent minimum wage and a national health service for all citizens - black, white or any other colour stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #47 June 30, 2009 Quote Quote Would your system of reparations consider the difference between old and new money? Or is everyone with a net worth greater than the net worth of the average black person in America at moment X responsible for paying out? Or how about just all the white people? my system of 'reparations' would start with a decent minimum wage and a national health service for all citizens - black, white or any other colour Too bad your opinion is worthless eh? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #48 June 30, 2009 Maybe this generation should be thankful they are here. Their ancestors were sold by their own people and some were eaten by their own people. Yep, I think they lucked out.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broke 0 #49 June 30, 2009 Hmm people who have never owned slaves paying for people who have never been slaves. My Grandparents have never owned slaves, and neither has any of my Great Grandparents. I actually met someone who's family was involved in the slave trade. If you want to find out the info it is there. The Spaniards took very good records. If you go to PR you can find who sold whom to who, and also from whom they recieved said slaves.Divot your source for all things Hillbilly. Anvil Brother 84 SCR 14192 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #50 June 30, 2009 QuoteHmm people who have never owned slaves paying for people who have never been slaves. It gets even more confusing if you happen to have ancestors who were both slaves and slave owners. Then you have to pay reparations to yourself.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
