Yossarian 0 #1 August 28, 2006 when tracking do you look at the horizon or directly below you? and does it matter? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #2 August 28, 2006 Yes it matters greatly! Looking at the horizon puts you in to an arch and will spoil your body position. Keep your head down and play with the angle to find the sweet spot. GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJmikeD 0 #3 August 28, 2006 by looking at the horizone you are able to keep your bearings during tracking. You want to make sure that you are tracking the right direction keeping in mind the jump run and others who jumped around you. As for looking at the ground sometimes you cant help it but trust me it will always be there. I had to make sure that I was altitude aware when I started tracking. I was finding myself lower then I wanted to be at deployment. "Falling is the easy part, Landing smoothly is the most importent part! -DJ Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yossarian 0 #4 August 28, 2006 i was thinking more to do with body position rather than my bearing, i can still move my eyes without altering my body position. why is it necessary to lose the arch in a track? (ive been told you need to by instructors, but not why, and although i could probably work it out i find these things are never as simple as they should be) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Foggy 0 #5 August 28, 2006 Quotewhy is it necessary to lose the arch in a track? My avatar is good illustration of a poor body position for a track. You can see that I am still arched in my chest. This is causing my track to go steep so I am not getting as much horizontal separation for the same altitude loss. A crude description would be to imagine a slow fall (de-arched) body position combined with the extended legs and swept back arms of the track. This will flatten out the track and allow you get more horizontal distance. Craig Girard of Airspeed actually appears to track back up relative to the videographer Foggy D21109 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #6 August 28, 2006 Put your butt in the air, your shoulders in your ears and your chin on your chest. Point you toes and push down with your hands/arms.But always keep track of what/who is in front of you and what/who is below you.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #7 August 28, 2006 Quoteby looking at the horizone you are able to keep your bearings during tracking. You want to make sure that you are tracking the right direction keeping in mind the jump run and others who jumped around you. As for looking at the ground sometimes you cant help it but trust me it will always be there. I had to make sure that I was altitude aware when I started tracking. I was finding myself lower then I wanted to be at deployment. Sorry, but your advice is unsafe. When tracking, the things that will kill you, ground, open canopies, etc. are down below you. Looking at the horizon is unsafe because you won't see the jumper waving off below you or the ground coming up. Besides, no one has ever impacted with the horizon. You can keep track of your heading by watching the ground, but when looking at the horizon you're not watching where you're going, the first rule of going fast safely. I've seen a horizon watcher track into an open canopy. Luckily all survived but the canopy and jumpsuit. BTW, when yuo're doing a good track, you're really pushing hard on the air to make yourself go. Max tracking is a lot of fun and a hell of a survival skill. I practice it on every breakoff. Vskydiver can kick my ass tracking, but not too many others. Spend a few jumps practicing it. It's well worth it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites napalmboy 0 #8 August 29, 2006 Gosh, this is all really interesting. I was told during AFF to look at the horizon while tracking, because it allows you to keep a heading and not accidentally turn into someone else's track. Perhaps that was a simplification for first jump students? Would you up-jumpers suggest looking more towards the ground after students are comfortable with a basic tracking position? Or did you learn tracking looking down from the start?Well, the door was open... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Foggy 0 #9 August 29, 2006 QuoteGosh, this is all really interesting. I was told during AFF to look at the horizon while tracking, because it allows you to keep a heading and not accidentally turn into someone else's track. Perhaps that was a simplification for first jump students? Yes. Heading control is primary, distance is secondary. No point in having a super fast Max Track if all you do is a love sick boomerang. Tracking is your next survival skill after figuring out what the handles do and landing with a level canopy above your head. Talk to an instructor about techniques and exercises to do. Foggy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #10 August 29, 2006 Quote Would you up-jumpers suggest looking more towards the ground after students are comfortable with a basic tracking position? Or did you learn tracking looking down from the start? I was taught to look at the ground from day 1. You can keep a heading easily enough. Just follow a road or whatever. If the world spins around below you, you're not tracking in a straight line. Once you start jumping with people other than your instructors, you really need to look where you're going when you track. That means below and in front, not the horizon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,640 #11 August 29, 2006 QuoteQuote Would you up-jumpers suggest looking more towards the ground after students are comfortable with a basic tracking position? Or did you learn tracking looking down from the start? I was taught to look at the ground from day 1. You can keep a heading easily enough. Just follow a road or whatever. If the world spins around below you, you're not tracking in a straight line. Once you start jumping with people other than your instructors, you really need to look where you're going when you track. That means below and in front, not the horizon. On a big way breakoff there may be collision risks in any direction. Until I am sure I have a clear path to myself I look around A LOT. Then I look between my feet at mjosparky in the base, turning a donut. If you can't see your feet, you are arched and aren't trying hard enough.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #12 August 29, 2006 Quote On a big way breakoff there may be collision risks in any direction. Until I am sure I have a clear path to myself I look around A LOT. Then I look between my feet at mjosparky in the base, turning a donut. That's true, and even on smaller ways that might have some "out" people. You do need to scan all around, especially to the sides for converging traffic and glance ahead for stopped bodies in freefall, but I still feel the main focus should be where you're going. The horizon is one of the last places to look for hazards. Looking over a shoulder or 2 at wave off is also a good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChrisL 2 #13 August 29, 2006 Quoteby looking at the horizone you are able to keep your bearings during tracking. You want to make sure that you are tracking the right direction keeping in mind the jump run and others who jumped around you. As for looking at the ground sometimes you cant help it but trust me it will always be there. I had to make sure that I was altitude aware when I started tracking. I was finding myself lower then I wanted to be at deployment. Dude, you have your facts way wrong here. At 253 jumps I dont consider myself nearly experienced enough to advise people. At 28 jumps you definitely should not be giving out advice.__ My mighty steed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #14 August 29, 2006 I've seen teaching students both ways. FWIW and IMHO 1. Look at horizon. Pros: For students, this is a good idea until they get the hang of tracking a straight line. There's instructors and coaches with them to help watch out. Cons: They will have to learn a different technique before leaving student status in prep for jumping with bigger formations. They will have to learn looking around, not just at the horizon or ground. 2. Look at the ground Pros: Better than nothing. I have nothing else here. Maybe you big boys could add some benefit to looking at the ground for students. Cons: Harder to gauge straight-line tracking even with a road to follow. 3. Looking around Pros: Best bet. Cons: Not something a student can do AND hold a line at the same time. Two caveats here ...looking at the horizon is not the only way to keep a line but it seems to be easier for students as compared to looking at the ground. ...looking around is best but does not lend itself well to helping students hold a line. As you can tell, I am a big proponent of the importance of holding a line. Distance and fall-rate can be learned afterwards. Now, all you big boys are allowed to tell me I'm full of shit but at least be kind enough to explain why. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #15 August 29, 2006 Quote Now, all you big boys are allowed to tell me I'm full of shit but at least be kind enough to explain why. No, You're not. Pretty nice analysis. Many students do track in a circle first time out. It's always funny/scary to watch them come back at you like a homing torpedo. Quite the kick to take evasive action. That's why I'll only jump with one noobie at a time. I can always dodge one person. Two can corner you. I agree with you and Kallend that looking around is important, but most of the hazards are below in front of you, IMHO> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #16 August 29, 2006 QuoteThen I look between my feet at mjosparky in the base, turning a donut. 100+ donut shot from the ground.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #17 August 29, 2006 QuoteI am a big proponent of the importance of holding a line. Distance and fall-rate can be learned afterwards. Totally agree... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,640 #18 August 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteThen I look between my feet at mjosparky in the base, turning a donut. 100+ donut shot from the ground. We will miss you at Top Gun. Have you bequeathed the orange suit to anyone?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #19 August 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteThen I look between my feet at mjosparky in the base, turning a donut. 100+ donut shot from the ground. We will miss you at Top Gun. Have you bequeathed the orange suit to anyone? No, but I am accepting bids..My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #20 August 30, 2006 QuoteHarder to gauge straight-line tracking even with a road to follow. Not in Texas! Not really sure why you think this is harder. Looking at the horizon doesn't necessarily mean you are tracking in a straight line especially if there is movement on the horizon (like fast moving clouds). My instructor told me that the reason they taught look to the horizon was to teach the student to stay level (thus straight) similar to how you learn to stand or go head down to stay vertical. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #21 August 30, 2006 Good and Bad.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Stumpy 256 #22 August 30, 2006 I SO got the wrong end of the stick there - i was just about to be seriously impressed by a 100way donut!!! Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,640 #23 August 30, 2006 QuoteGood and Bad. Another "bad" in this pic: www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=38039; And a "wierd" in this one: www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=38088;... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,640 #24 August 30, 2006 Quote We will miss you at Top Gun. Have you bequeathed the orange suit to anyone? No, but I am accepting bids.. $0.25... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
napalmboy 0 #8 August 29, 2006 Gosh, this is all really interesting. I was told during AFF to look at the horizon while tracking, because it allows you to keep a heading and not accidentally turn into someone else's track. Perhaps that was a simplification for first jump students? Would you up-jumpers suggest looking more towards the ground after students are comfortable with a basic tracking position? Or did you learn tracking looking down from the start?Well, the door was open... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Foggy 0 #9 August 29, 2006 QuoteGosh, this is all really interesting. I was told during AFF to look at the horizon while tracking, because it allows you to keep a heading and not accidentally turn into someone else's track. Perhaps that was a simplification for first jump students? Yes. Heading control is primary, distance is secondary. No point in having a super fast Max Track if all you do is a love sick boomerang. Tracking is your next survival skill after figuring out what the handles do and landing with a level canopy above your head. Talk to an instructor about techniques and exercises to do. Foggy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #10 August 29, 2006 Quote Would you up-jumpers suggest looking more towards the ground after students are comfortable with a basic tracking position? Or did you learn tracking looking down from the start? I was taught to look at the ground from day 1. You can keep a heading easily enough. Just follow a road or whatever. If the world spins around below you, you're not tracking in a straight line. Once you start jumping with people other than your instructors, you really need to look where you're going when you track. That means below and in front, not the horizon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,640 #11 August 29, 2006 QuoteQuote Would you up-jumpers suggest looking more towards the ground after students are comfortable with a basic tracking position? Or did you learn tracking looking down from the start? I was taught to look at the ground from day 1. You can keep a heading easily enough. Just follow a road or whatever. If the world spins around below you, you're not tracking in a straight line. Once you start jumping with people other than your instructors, you really need to look where you're going when you track. That means below and in front, not the horizon. On a big way breakoff there may be collision risks in any direction. Until I am sure I have a clear path to myself I look around A LOT. Then I look between my feet at mjosparky in the base, turning a donut. If you can't see your feet, you are arched and aren't trying hard enough.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #12 August 29, 2006 Quote On a big way breakoff there may be collision risks in any direction. Until I am sure I have a clear path to myself I look around A LOT. Then I look between my feet at mjosparky in the base, turning a donut. That's true, and even on smaller ways that might have some "out" people. You do need to scan all around, especially to the sides for converging traffic and glance ahead for stopped bodies in freefall, but I still feel the main focus should be where you're going. The horizon is one of the last places to look for hazards. Looking over a shoulder or 2 at wave off is also a good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisL 2 #13 August 29, 2006 Quoteby looking at the horizone you are able to keep your bearings during tracking. You want to make sure that you are tracking the right direction keeping in mind the jump run and others who jumped around you. As for looking at the ground sometimes you cant help it but trust me it will always be there. I had to make sure that I was altitude aware when I started tracking. I was finding myself lower then I wanted to be at deployment. Dude, you have your facts way wrong here. At 253 jumps I dont consider myself nearly experienced enough to advise people. At 28 jumps you definitely should not be giving out advice.__ My mighty steed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #14 August 29, 2006 I've seen teaching students both ways. FWIW and IMHO 1. Look at horizon. Pros: For students, this is a good idea until they get the hang of tracking a straight line. There's instructors and coaches with them to help watch out. Cons: They will have to learn a different technique before leaving student status in prep for jumping with bigger formations. They will have to learn looking around, not just at the horizon or ground. 2. Look at the ground Pros: Better than nothing. I have nothing else here. Maybe you big boys could add some benefit to looking at the ground for students. Cons: Harder to gauge straight-line tracking even with a road to follow. 3. Looking around Pros: Best bet. Cons: Not something a student can do AND hold a line at the same time. Two caveats here ...looking at the horizon is not the only way to keep a line but it seems to be easier for students as compared to looking at the ground. ...looking around is best but does not lend itself well to helping students hold a line. As you can tell, I am a big proponent of the importance of holding a line. Distance and fall-rate can be learned afterwards. Now, all you big boys are allowed to tell me I'm full of shit but at least be kind enough to explain why. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #15 August 29, 2006 Quote Now, all you big boys are allowed to tell me I'm full of shit but at least be kind enough to explain why. No, You're not. Pretty nice analysis. Many students do track in a circle first time out. It's always funny/scary to watch them come back at you like a homing torpedo. Quite the kick to take evasive action. That's why I'll only jump with one noobie at a time. I can always dodge one person. Two can corner you. I agree with you and Kallend that looking around is important, but most of the hazards are below in front of you, IMHO> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #16 August 29, 2006 QuoteThen I look between my feet at mjosparky in the base, turning a donut. 100+ donut shot from the ground.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #17 August 29, 2006 QuoteI am a big proponent of the importance of holding a line. Distance and fall-rate can be learned afterwards. Totally agree... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,640 #18 August 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteThen I look between my feet at mjosparky in the base, turning a donut. 100+ donut shot from the ground. We will miss you at Top Gun. Have you bequeathed the orange suit to anyone?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #19 August 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteThen I look between my feet at mjosparky in the base, turning a donut. 100+ donut shot from the ground. We will miss you at Top Gun. Have you bequeathed the orange suit to anyone? No, but I am accepting bids..My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #20 August 30, 2006 QuoteHarder to gauge straight-line tracking even with a road to follow. Not in Texas! Not really sure why you think this is harder. Looking at the horizon doesn't necessarily mean you are tracking in a straight line especially if there is movement on the horizon (like fast moving clouds). My instructor told me that the reason they taught look to the horizon was to teach the student to stay level (thus straight) similar to how you learn to stand or go head down to stay vertical. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #21 August 30, 2006 Good and Bad.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #22 August 30, 2006 I SO got the wrong end of the stick there - i was just about to be seriously impressed by a 100way donut!!! Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,640 #23 August 30, 2006 QuoteGood and Bad. Another "bad" in this pic: www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=38039; And a "wierd" in this one: www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=38088;... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,640 #24 August 30, 2006 Quote We will miss you at Top Gun. Have you bequeathed the orange suit to anyone? No, but I am accepting bids.. $0.25... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yossarian 0 #25 August 31, 2006 turns out im not bad... i lurked on a 3-way (pretending to be camera man type-lurk) and tracked off at 5.5k for about 7secs (pre-arranged) and got some serious distance, was good to be able to see the formation dissapear between my legs. on another jump did a tandem track with a mate (linked with arms over shoulders, not sure if thats its real name) and the speed was impressive, from looking at the ground, was an awesome feeling Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
