elitist view on firearms

[Nightingale 0]

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Tom Aiello and I were talking about this in another thread. I'm sure the NRA would be very willing to help.

Would be nice, but I'm not anywhere nearly as sure as you are they'd do it.

Basic gun safety is something that can be learned in a couple of hours.

Our gun rights group here in SoCal (Shameless plug:Ordinary California Citizens Concerned With Safety) got 250 people to a Board of Supervisors meeting on a Tuesday, and those were just the Orange County folks. I'd bet at least half those people would be willing to get their NRA Certified Instructor credentials and help out at their local schools if it meant that more people around here would be comfortable with guns, especially if the NRA was willing to assist in getting people certified and set up with a school.

[billvon 2,427]

>If the NRA got volunteers (I think I saw one just a few posts back) to do
>the teaching, you wouldn't have any government officials.

Sounds good to me. Have a standardized basic required syllabus/competence level (to prevent people from, you know, shooting themselves in the leg) and then let volunteers do it.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>If the NRA got volunteers (I think I saw one just a few posts back) to do
>the teaching, you wouldn't have any government officials.

Sounds good to me. Have a standardized basic required syllabus/competence level (to prevent people from, you know, shooting themselves in the leg) and then let volunteers do it.

The obvious answer there is to not use live ammunition during the demos. Snapcaps are an acceptable analog. Though it sends a poor message about the ease in learning safe gun handling, the damage from each incident like that is just too great.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Driver's Ed is mandatory (in some form, no longer offered by many high schools), yet that didn't make driving any less cool.

The purpose of driver's ed is safety, not to deter people from driving. Same with firearm safety training.

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People here aren't shooting 200-1000 rounds a session just for safety reasons - they're doing it because it's fun. Same with drinking.

Nothing wrong with that, is there? I enjoy a little of both (but not at the same time.)

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Education just mitigates many of the consequences from playing with cool, but dangerous shit.

Yeah, like taking the FJC greatly reduces your chances of bouncing on your first parachute jump. Are you against that too?
IMO, firearms are not dangerous, only careless handling of them is dangerous.

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The NRA does not have great resources in terms of $$ to educate every school. They do have the ability to provide materials, and have for a long time. Could probably provide volunteers for the community to do presentations.

It takes very little resources, just a few training aids, a syllabus, and a volunteer, to present a half hour lesson in gun safety to grade school children. Like you say, the NRA already has printed materials and a huge group of volunteers.

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Ultimately, if you want it taught in the schools, it needs to be added to something: PE (fewer are getting this, why we're getting fatter), driver's ed (I got a lot of career training here, but again, disappearing), social studies (lol - my teachers were all leftists), NRA club (ROTFLMAO)...it gets ugly in a hurry.

They could take some time out of those D.A.R.E. lectures that suck.

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If a region is hostile to it, like SF who banned and is now about to unban ROTC, it's hard to implement. Maybe it's a subject best left to the parents.

Same with sex ed and drug lectures? The way the left is crying about children and accidental gun deaths, you think they'd be all for education. You and I know the solution, knowledge, is blocked by politics. Let Middle America lead the way, let SFO continue in their ignorance.

[jcd11235 0]

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What was your MOS?

13B

To be fair, the hunter safety course didn't cover the really big guns.

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Some of the things were first aid and navigation, survival and protection from the elements.

That would have been interesting material. Ours was all about the guns.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[kelpdiver 2]

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Yeah, like taking the FJC greatly reduces your chances of bouncing on your first parachute jump. Are you against that too?

Where on earth are you getting the idea that I'm opposed to training? My point is that guns will still be cool and attractive, even if the kids are shown how to more safely use them. That doesn't mean we should leave them in the dark ; I just question the assertion that with this training they'll have no interest in guns.

[mnealtx 0]

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Yeah, like taking the FJC greatly reduces your chances of bouncing on your first parachute jump. Are you against that too?

Where on earth are you getting the idea that I'm opposed to training? My point is that guns will still be cool and attractive, even if the kids are shown how to more safely use them. That doesn't mean we should leave them in the dark ; I just question the assertion that with this training they'll have no interest in guns.

You have personal testimonials stating that is NOT the case from various responders to the thread (myself included). I would submit that experience trumps opinion in this case.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

You're treading on a vague double negative.

The only experience you gave was a snarky remark about sex education. In any event, MY experience trumps your's, for my assessment.

I find that knowledge increases my interest in nearly everything - certainly for guns, driving, sex, booze. One seeks out knowledge not to lose interest in something, but to
1) learn - a good human trait. I am always seeking new interests
2) avoid pitfalls/danger (what should be promoted as the primary gain.)

Simply from a political view, trying to convince anti gun types that Eddie the Eagle will make their kids bored with guns will go over as well as Joe the Camel marketing did with the anti tobacco types.

[mnealtx 0]

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You're treading on a vague double negative.

The only experience you gave was a snarky remark about sex education.

I'm sorry - I was unaware that posting in this thread was a requirement for firearms training experience to be valid. I'll try to remember that, for the future.

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In any event, MY experience trumps your's, for my assessment.

Just for the record, what is YOUR experience with teaching firearms safety? Just so we know you're actually talking from, you know, EXPERIENCE rather than your opinion.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

I don't know how to politely ask this - are you drunk right now? The context shifts are confusing as hell.

You said that personal experiences were provided in this thread by you - so what the fuck do you mean by "I was unaware that posting in this thread was a requirement for firearms training experience to be valid." Did you give experiences or not? (well, I'll answer - no, you did not).

And why are you asking about my experience in teaching firearm safety, when the topic at hand is the effect of training on individuals. It is the latter part - students - to which I am speaking.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Education just mitigates many of the consequences from playing with cool, but dangerous shit.

Hi Kelp, let me jump back in. The "training makes it boring" assertion was based on my personal experience with my kids, and a tongue in cheek analysis of what happens to many students when a subject is required. Making guns boring, though, is not my goal. De-mystifying them is. I think the mystique of the prohibited thing causes much of the trouble when untrained kids get around guns.

Still, your line above speaks volumes, IMO, about your attitude towards firearms. What's wrong with "mitigating" consequences. Wouldn't "preventing tragic accidents" be just as fitting? Or is that too positive of a phrase? And I also reassert that firearms are not dangerous when properly handled. You assert that they are "dangerous shit." I reserve that phrase for swooping.

[billvon 2,427]

>And I also reassert that firearms are not dangerous when
>properly handled.

That's like saying skydiving is not dangerous if done properly. That's not really true. Both skydiving and guns are dangerous; both will kill you very quickly if you make simple errors. Both can be safe _enough_ given proper training, experience and care - but we should not make the mistake of equating that statement to "they're safe."

[kelpdiver 2]

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Education just mitigates many of the consequences from playing with cool, but dangerous shit.

Still, your line above speaks volumes, IMO, about your attitude towards firearms. What's wrong with "mitigating" consequences.

Who said there was anything wrong with it? You guys are reading WAY too closely it seems. You in particular continue to think that I'm attacking safety training. I've said nothing remotely like that.

And in context, dangerous shit referred to more than just guns. It included parachutes, along with a host of other tools or activities we do that can have very bad outcomes if used foolishly.

[mnealtx 0]

The "myself included" was to state that I, as well, have trained people in firearms safety. My apologies for being unclear.

Now that we have that straightened out - what is YOUR experience in training people in firearms safety that your OPINION that guns will "still be cool and attractive" trumps the experience of others that have provided firearms safety training?

The topic of the thread is firearms safety training - so sorry that I framed my answer in light of that and confused you.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[JohnMitchell 14]

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That's like saying skydiving is not dangerous if done properly. That's not really true. Both skydiving and guns are dangerous; both will kill you very quickly if you make simple errors. Both can be safe _enough_ given proper training, experience and care - but we should not make the mistake of equating that statement to "they're safe."

You can do everything right and still die in skydiving. I feel that's much less likely with firearms. I also feel there are fewer variables. I have to say that my style of shooting is target practice at a range. I don't do the IPSC stuff or anything like that. However, I hear they have an excellent safety record. Many of my jumper friends own and use firearms. I've been to no accidental gun death funerals. I've been to plenty of skydiving death funerals.

I have, however, seen safety violations at gun ranges. I'm not to shy about speaking up. Gun accidents do occur, obviously, but it's always a clear cut violation of very simple rules.

[TomAiello 25]

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>And I also reassert that firearms are not dangerous when
>properly handled.

That's like saying skydiving is not dangerous if done properly. That's not really true. Both skydiving and guns are dangerous; both will kill you very quickly if you make simple errors. Both can be safe _enough_ given proper training, experience and care - but we should not make the mistake of equating that statement to "they're safe."

No, it's more like saying "a skydiving rig is not dangerous when handled properly."

It's the activity of skydiving that's dangerous--not the equipment. Handing someone a firearm loaded with dummies is no more dangerous than handing them a rig on solid ground.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[skybill 19]

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Just watched the classic "DEA shoots himself in the leg" on youtube again yesterday, this time at the DZ with a bunch of jumpers. Listening to the guy brag about how he was the only one smart enough to handle a "Glock 40", right before the AD into his leg, made me realize this. So many of the liberals have been brainwashed that firearms are mysterious, dangerous things, that only a chosen few can use. This is one of many reasons why they continue to want to put all power into the hands of their protectors. Idiotic tough guys, lecturing kids, perpetuate this myth, and cause more harm than good by making firearms such a mysterious, tempting thing.

I'm calling for mandatory firearm training in all schools, the younger, the better. Make it a required class, and that will take the thrill out of it for almost all kids. My children all learned firearm use at an early age, and with the exception of an occasional trip to the range with mom and dad, or the occasional hunting trip, are pretty bored with it all. Never once did I stand up and tell them they weren't smart enough to handle a firearm. I simply told them how to do it safely.

Hi John,
As for firearms education, I just wonder what kind of training the "Boy Scouts" does these days?? When I was a kid, firearms training and marksmanship were part and parcel of Scouting. When I got to high school me and some of my friends got involved with the Civil Air Patrol Cadet program and also had firearms training and marksmanship program. Good fun!! Learned a lot. Got to "Sharpshooter 7th bar." Don't know about these daze?? I'm glad I grew up when I did, where I did with the society, significant others, mores and folkways that were our comunity at the time.

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[billvon 2,427]

>It's the activity of skydiving that's dangerous--not the equipment.
>Handing someone a firearm loaded with dummies is no more dangerous
>than handing them a rig on solid ground.

Agreed. And in both cases, training is needed to safely use them as intended.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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As for firearms education, I just wonder what kind of training the "Boy Scouts" does these days??

Hi Bill,
This was Cub Scouts, and it was the very basic rules of gun safety(muzzle control, finger off trigger, all guns are loaded, be sure of target and what's behind it) with a quick explanation of using open sights. Then each Cub Scout got to fire 5 rounds from a bolt action .22 rifle, from a bench rest at 25 yards. Certainly not extensive, but a good foundation, I hope. I certainly spend more time and ammo when I'm taking a friend on the "first shot course".

We took Hunter's Safety with our son a few years ago. It's still a very thorough course of instruction, with lots of firearm handling on the last day. It was funny to see the reactions of the guys who ran Vskydiver through the paces as she shot all the different firearms quite well. They didn't know she grew up with all that stuff and figured she be good for a chuckle. Joke was on them.

I agree with you about a different time in which we grew up. My wife and I remember high school in Utah, with gun on racks in the student parking lot, and kids going deer hunting after class. Unthinkable in today's climate.

The subject rolled around to sport shooting this weekend at the DZ, and someone mentioned that he never thought I was the type to be into guns. I want the word to get out that not all gun owners are super Rambo camouflage rightwing types. Many of us drive mini vans with Little Leaguers in the back and go to PTA meetiongs. Cops are not the anointed few that are capable of handling and shooting firearms. It's a basic skill set that everyone should possess. Also, carrying a gun for self defense should be considered a societal duty to help prevent crime. Admittedly, that last one is a harder point to make.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Not so much boring but more of taking away the mystique.


Once kids find out that guns are not magical weapons that hit every thing them look at, they become less of a solution to every problem.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Not so much boring but more of taking away the mystique.


Once kids find out that guns are not magical weapons that hit every thing them look at, they become less of a solution to every problem.

'Xactly. And that you can't curve bullets like Angeline Jolie does in the movies.

[24fps 1]

It is interesting how things have changed. My dad tells stories how most the guys brought their guns to school. At lunch time they would go out to the cars and talk guns, sometime they would take off and see if they could bag a deer or turkey during the lunch hour. (In proper hunting season of course)

I grew up in the same little town in the 80's and 90s. Guys still had their rifles/hand guns in their trucks at school back then. I can't think of a single guy or girl that did not take hunter safety course or handled guns in Scouts or 4H. We all were educated about fire arms and had a healthy RESPECT for them. I do not know of a single fire arm accident in our town or area.

Of course this is just my experience.

something funny and unique

[TomAiello 25]

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My wife and I remember high school in Utah, with gun on racks in the student parking lot, and kids going deer hunting after class.

Believe it or not, there were gun racks on trucks at my high school--in California. Of course, we also had a hitching post for people who rode their horses to school, and dorms for the students who had to travel more than a couple hours to get to school (they went home on weekends). The folks 45 minutes away got bussed in every day, though. It's weird for me to read about California today and compare it with the California I grew up in.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[FreeflyChile 0]

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letting the cubs shoot.

Hey! Last time I hauled out that joke, you busted my balls.

The way this season is going, the Cubs can't hit anything so letting them shoot shouldn't be a problem...

[JohnMitchell 14]

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It's weird for me to read about California today and compare it with the California I grew up in.

Kind of nice we still have Idaho.