Skyrad 0 #51 April 5, 2009 QuoteI think that people who have a tendency toward violence will find one way or another whether guns are available or not. My question is what makes people have that tendency towards violence? I don't suppose that Americans are any more prone towards the tendency than any european nationality, yet it seems they act on the tendency more than europeans do (outside of a war scenario) I'm wondering why that is and how can it be changed?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #52 April 5, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote .... I've got a better idea for you - TEACH the child at a young age that it's not a friggin toy. TAKE them to the range and show them HOW to safely handle a firearm. Mike, it always was much more fun to play with my offspring, to visit a zoo or similar places, to read, to travel, to show them the world - never ever there was any need to teach them how to shoot. What for? Weapons never were a fitment of our nursery. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites penniless 0 #53 April 5, 2009 QuoteQuoteI think that people who have a tendency toward violence will find one way or another whether guns are available or not. My question is what makes people have that tendency towards violence? I don't suppose that Americans are any more prone towards the tendency than any european nationality, If shootings are excluded, I don't believe the data show Americans to be more violent than Europeans. The really significant anomaly is in shootings. But it can't have anything to do with the availabilty of guns. Oh no. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shotgun 1 #54 April 5, 2009 QuoteMy question is what makes people have that tendency towards violence? I don't suppose that Americans are any more prone towards the tendency than any european nationality, yet it seems they act on the tendency more than europeans do (outside of a war scenario) _Do_ we act on the tendency more? (Honest question; I really don't know.) QuoteI'm wondering why that is and how can it be changed? If that is the case, I don't know the answer. But I tend to doubt that overly-strict gun regulation is the answer. (Not saying that you're suggesting it is.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #55 April 5, 2009 QuoteThanks, actually I'm not for banning personal firearms. But something celarly needs to be done. Nothing clearly needs to be done. The absolute rates of legal gun ownership have no correlation to the number of people who get shot (although making guns more or less available decrease and increase crimes against people respectively). White people living in Seattle where any one can get a permit to carry a concealed weapon) don't get shot and killed any more often than those living just the other side of the border in Vancouver where handguns are illegal. The aggregate rates are rather different but so are the demographics. In Vancouver the minorities are more affluent than average. In Seattle, the black and Hispanic per-capita income from the 2000 census were about half the white populations ( $18,328 and $17,216 respectively vs $35,641). Economic disparity leads to crime and murder, with the black and hispanics having 36.6 and 26.9 per 100,000 murder rates versus the white populations 6.2 and Vancouver's 6.4 at the time of _Handgun Regulations, Crime, Assaults, and Homicides: A Tale of Two Cities" (Sloanm at el). In America, we have lots of predominantly white, black, or Latino neighborhoods. We have defacto segregation according to race and economic class. In America, public schools are paid for (through property taxes) and controlled (as in the curriculum) by the local populations. Students generally attend local schools. A black child who lives in a black neighborhood that's statistically poor does not get the same educational opportunities that a white one does. Combine educational opportunity and attainment with a fathers' earnings being the best predictor of his children's economic future and you have a real problem. If you want to fix America's murder rate, you need to address the underlying problems which have created a situation where gang membership looks like a good career choice. Those are both economic and cultural. Quote I wonder what it is that is so different about US culture that makes people so ready to pick up a gun and shoot someone. It is that society there depicts people as successes or otherwise by the value of their assets? Is it that people are told that they need all kinds of matierial object to be happy? Is it the lack of ability to communicate effectivly? America is a big place. In locations where nearly everyone has good jobs we don't kill each other appreciably more than the rest of the world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #56 April 5, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteI think that people who have a tendency toward violence will find one way or another whether guns are available or not. My question is what makes people have that tendency towards violence? I don't suppose that Americans are any more prone towards the tendency than any european nationality, If shootings are excluded, I don't believe the data show Americans to be more violent than Europeans. The really significant anomaly is in shootings. But it can't have anything to do with the availabilty of guns. Oh no. If it had anything to do with the availability of guns, blood would have run red in the streets of small rural towns where boys kept rifles and shotguns in their vehicles so they could hunt on the way to and from school. If it had anything to do with the availability of guns, the murder rate would have been higher before the Gun Control Act of 1968 when it became illegal to sell guns through the mail If it had anything to do with the availability of guns, the murder rates where any one could carry concealed would be higher than the places where handguns are effectively illegal. It doesn't have anything to do with legaly available guns. It's about economic and social issues that are much less comfortable to admit and a lot more difficult to fix. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #57 April 5, 2009 QuoteNothing clearly needs to be done. So you are happy with the level of violent crime in the US? If you are right and its not the guns then it is most likely the culture that leads to violent crime (Gun or otherwise) but hey if you're happy with that... I personally wouldn't be.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites warpedskydiver 0 #58 April 5, 2009 I will not ever propose to remove any of our Constitutionally guaranteed rights. Anyone who proposes to do so and then insists they are concerned about rights is a liar and even worse, a subversive to our own constitution. A little here, a little there and pretty soon we look like other nations were you may get privileges but no rights. If the laws of other nations are so terrific why do millions of people still wish they can come here to live? Some of our finest citizens are some of our most recent as well, for they understand what it is that they have and do not take it for granted. This is not directed at you Jamille. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites warpedskydiver 0 #59 April 5, 2009 In the sixth grade i was trusted by my principal to come to school with my shotgun so I could hunt after school without having to walk so far. I just left it and the ammunition in his office closet until after school. Sometimes the police would offer me a ride home after hunting if my sack of rabbits and pheasant was too heavy. Most people honked and waved as I walked down the shoulder of the road as I carried my shotgun in it's case. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #60 April 5, 2009 QuoteQuoteNothing clearly needs to be done. So you are happy with the level of violent crime in the US? If you are right and its not the guns then it is most likely the culture that leads to violent crime (Gun or otherwise) but hey if you're happy with that... I personally wouldn't be. Nothing needs to be done about the guns. We need to do something about the circumstances that leave limited attractive alternatives to gange life. Add apprenticeship and trade programs to primary school curiculum. Provide more state and federal funding. Give college or trade school to any one who graduates highschool. Bring outside talent in to inner city schools - if we can pay contractors six figures to head for the war zones of Iraq we can do the same thing domestically. It wouldn't be cheap, although reducing the money spent on prisoners ($40K per year per prisoner in California) could offset a lot of it. The hard part here is that education as a value and the drive to succeed in a career usually gets picked up from people's parents. I value education and am an engineer because my parents did and my dad was an engineer. His dad was an engineer and even my grandmother went to college (math major). My great grandfather was essentially an engineer (applied geophysics) with a PhD. It never even occurred to my sister and I that people did something other than go to college and get a job which requires an education. You have to jump start that some how. Legalizing drugs and prostitution would cut the primary reasons for turf wars, but there has to be an alternative more attractive than jobs for unskilled labor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #61 April 5, 2009 well, i can name about four shootings from the last year, some, if not all, including the army issued guns.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 25 #62 April 6, 2009 Quote...never ever there was any need to teach them how to shoot. What for? I believe it is my responsibility to teach my children how to use firearms for the same reasons I believe it is my responsibility to teach them how to drive, to teach them about safe sex, and to teach them many other things. They will live in a world where there are various things that they can use as tools, but which might injure them if mis-used. I want them to know how to use those things properly, to minimize the chance they will be hurt. Parenting isn't all about what's "more fun." Some of it is about teaching things that your children ought to know to live happier, safer, more productive lives.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bolas 5 #63 April 6, 2009 Quote I guess it has to do with the more newsworthy gun incidents and the fact that there are a lot more people who drink alcohol than there are who own guns.(?) You can't advertise guns on TV so news networks don't have to worry about losing a potential advertiser. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Iceburner 0 #64 April 6, 2009 one thing i've noticed is that the mass media coverage these shootings have gotten resembles the mass media coverage the school shootings got years back. I believe if the shootings got a little less hype then less nut cases would think "hey, that's a good idea!" When the school shootings got little more than a mention in the national media, they dropped in "popularity" and haven't happened as frequently. Not a solution by any means, but less national coverage may make it less frequent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #65 April 6, 2009 Quote They pick their targets because they have an issue with the people or what the facility represents to them. It has nothing to do with whether or not they think they'll be successful in getting away with it. In fact most of the times they PLAN on dying in the process. Do you really think such mass murder could happen on a shooting range?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #66 April 6, 2009 QuoteWe need to do something about the circumstances that leave limited attractive alternatives to gange life. Add apprenticeship and trade programs to primary school curiculum. Provide more state and federal funding. Give college or trade school to any one who graduates highschool. Bring outside talent in to inner city schools - if we can pay contractors six figures to head for the war zones of Iraq we can do the same thing domestically. It wouldn't be cheap, although reducing the money spent on prisoners ($40K per year per prisoner in California) could offset a lot of it. Some good ideas there, however I'm wondering just how many people in the poorer classes in the US actually finish highschool, but more than that I would be suprised if there was the will amoung the people to support such a foreard thinking initative. With Obama trying to make healthcare more available to the masses you'd think he was asking people to reduce their pay by half! Maybe part of the problem is that many people don't seem to care about the rest of society only about themselves. That said, I like your ideas and think that they would be a move in the right direction.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #67 April 6, 2009 QuoteI've got a better idea for you - TEACH the child at a young age that it's not a friggin toy. TAKE them to the range and show them HOW to safely handle a firearm. I would make it MANDATORY in school.....it would produce children familiar with guns and what they can do and prevent a lot of accidents of children playing with them. Just like sex education..there needs to be meaninful firearms training because the parents in much of this country are woefully INEPT at teaching their children ANYTHING A little bit of responsibility and knowledge goes a long way.... and we could also lessen the abject fear of handguns that people like some of our prolific gun-a-phobes here in SC have. ( MAYBE they need some training so they can react rationally to the discussions....) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jerryzflies 0 #68 April 6, 2009 QuoteQuoteI've got a better idea for you - TEACH the child at a young age that it's not a friggin toy. TAKE them to the range and show them HOW to safely handle a firearm. I would make it MANDATORY in school.....it would produce children familiar with guns and what they can do and prevent a lot of accidents of children playing with them. How will this prevent a looney from offing a bunch of innocent people?If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #69 April 6, 2009 Quote Quote Quote I've got a better idea for you - TEACH the child at a young age that it's not a friggin toy. TAKE them to the range and show them HOW to safely handle a firearm. I would make it MANDATORY in school.....it would produce children familiar with guns and what they can do and prevent a lot of accidents of children playing with them. How will this prevent a looney from offing a bunch of innocent people? how will this ensure people wash their hands after using a restroom? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jerryzflies 0 #70 April 6, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote I've got a better idea for you - TEACH the child at a young age that it's not a friggin toy. TAKE them to the range and show them HOW to safely handle a firearm. I would make it MANDATORY in school.....it would produce children familiar with guns and what they can do and prevent a lot of accidents of children playing with them. How will this prevent a looney from offing a bunch of innocent people? how will this ensure people wash their hands after using a restroom? You're posting in the wrong thread.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nerdgirl 0 #71 April 6, 2009 Quote The Brady folks bleat about 'violent video games'... I think glorification of criminals in modern popular music and movies is a more likely source, if such things *do* have an effect. Another individual asserting a connection between violent video games and violent crime is the same guy who wrote the sheepdog, wolf, sheep analogy. Even I can’t resist noting the irony of “bleating” there. From Dave Grossman’s, LTC USA (ret) own website: Violent Games can Condition Children for Violent Behavior Big Game Hunting: A Former Soldier and Expert on Killing Sets His Sights on Violent Video Games 'Stop Teaching Our Kids to Kill' Author Takes Aim at Video Games One of Grossman’s own book, entitled: Stop Teaching Our Kids to Kill: A Call to Action Against TV, Movie and Video Game Violence Grossman citing MRI research by others in his Media Violence Update I’d call it a hypothesis that might be the genesis of investigations … aka the “hmmm…” and “huh…” that might inspire investigation, but the causal mechanism and social science is less certain (to put it diplomatically). /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bolas 5 #72 April 6, 2009 Quotethe parents in much of this country are woefully INEPT at teaching their children ANYTHING A little bit of responsibility and knowledge goes a long way.... While I agree, I don't think removing more parental responsibility and accountability is the answer.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nerdgirl 0 #73 April 6, 2009 Good discussions. Thanks! QuoteAmerica is a big place. In locations where nearly everyone has good jobs we don't kill each other appreciably more than the rest of the world. It's pretty clear that violent crime and property crime correlate strongly with poverty, lack of education, and lack of civil institutions. (Educated & wealthy criminals predominantly pursue other forms of crime.) One that's harder to measure and, admittedly, anecdotal, is lack (or perceived lack) of opportunity. I spent a number of years living in South Central Los Angeles, including during the 1992 riots: the sense of hopelessness was pervasive. It's hard to measure. My observation is that the US has largely spent the last 25 years in a 'get tough on crime' re-active mentality (ties into drug sentencing as well). The US has tried harsher sentencing ... and it doesn't work. The US has the highest incarceration rate. That's relevant to overall violent crime rate. Gang crime is another area that introduces more variables (that's a situation closer to insurgencies, imo, and like snowflakes, each insurgency is unique). At the same time, I'm not sure those cases reflect the perpetrators of the sort of violence that sparked this thread and a few of the other recent ones. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybill 19 #74 April 6, 2009 QuoteQuote...never ever there was any need to teach them how to shoot. What for? I believe it is my responsibility to teach my children how to use firearms for the same reasons I believe it is my responsibility to teach them how to drive, to teach them about safe sex, and to teach them many other things. They will live in a world where there are various things that they can use as tools, but which might injure them if mis-used. I want them to know how to use those things properly, to minimize the chance they will be hurt. Parenting isn't all about what's "more fun." Some of it is about teaching things that your children ought to know to live happier, safer, more productive lives. Hi Tom, "Hit the nail on the head why don'tya'!!!" I concur.SCR-2034, SCS-680 III%, Deli-out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigbearfng 9 #75 April 6, 2009 I believe the dead cops WERE armed with guns and were properly trained in their use (unlike many civilians). Didn't seem to help them. I usually don't bother with these discussions but.... Now for a LEO perspective. Yes the cops were armed and trained and still died. However if we responded to every call such as this with rifles/shotguns aimed on entry; well, the public and media would be screaming that it was an over reaction/racially motivated, blah blah blah!!!! So the street cop has to temper their response. And the way I look at it is the way our hands are tied the bad guy is always going to get a first shot free. That's the unfortunate facts of life..... If it comes in as an active shooter call then we can respond without quite so many monday morning quarterbacks. Now for some further examples-(real by the way) In Florida there was a "test run" by terrorists- two men boarded a school bus full of kids, glared at the bus driver, sat down, wearing heavy clothing, refused to leave. Responding cops arrested them with minimal force. But if it was a real bombing they would of been wrong and a bus full of kids would of been dead. Or if they had taken the head shots and no bombs found the media would of crucified them. Real FBI stats are that in stranger abductions of kids 75% are dead within 3 hours and 98% in 3 days. If you see it going down do you take the shot? Either way you're going to get all the monday morning quarterbacks second guessing you after the fact. And as far as "american culture" , "gun culture" being to blame.....try taking a look at a changing parenting culture instead-take a long hard look at that one! Along with the resulting change in values that result. Oh BTW, Washington DC has about the most restrictive gun laws on the books, and also has the highest violent crime rate. And yea, if someone has a real suggestion to a solution speak up! A solution that doesn't trample all your civil rights also. But don't even waste time with ban all guns-if you could only see what illegal heavy weapons come in along with the illegal drugs....... OK, end of what I meant as food for thought and I guess was kind of a rant.... sorry it got so long..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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penniless 0 #53 April 5, 2009 QuoteQuoteI think that people who have a tendency toward violence will find one way or another whether guns are available or not. My question is what makes people have that tendency towards violence? I don't suppose that Americans are any more prone towards the tendency than any european nationality, If shootings are excluded, I don't believe the data show Americans to be more violent than Europeans. The really significant anomaly is in shootings. But it can't have anything to do with the availabilty of guns. Oh no. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #54 April 5, 2009 QuoteMy question is what makes people have that tendency towards violence? I don't suppose that Americans are any more prone towards the tendency than any european nationality, yet it seems they act on the tendency more than europeans do (outside of a war scenario) _Do_ we act on the tendency more? (Honest question; I really don't know.) QuoteI'm wondering why that is and how can it be changed? If that is the case, I don't know the answer. But I tend to doubt that overly-strict gun regulation is the answer. (Not saying that you're suggesting it is.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #55 April 5, 2009 QuoteThanks, actually I'm not for banning personal firearms. But something celarly needs to be done. Nothing clearly needs to be done. The absolute rates of legal gun ownership have no correlation to the number of people who get shot (although making guns more or less available decrease and increase crimes against people respectively). White people living in Seattle where any one can get a permit to carry a concealed weapon) don't get shot and killed any more often than those living just the other side of the border in Vancouver where handguns are illegal. The aggregate rates are rather different but so are the demographics. In Vancouver the minorities are more affluent than average. In Seattle, the black and Hispanic per-capita income from the 2000 census were about half the white populations ( $18,328 and $17,216 respectively vs $35,641). Economic disparity leads to crime and murder, with the black and hispanics having 36.6 and 26.9 per 100,000 murder rates versus the white populations 6.2 and Vancouver's 6.4 at the time of _Handgun Regulations, Crime, Assaults, and Homicides: A Tale of Two Cities" (Sloanm at el). In America, we have lots of predominantly white, black, or Latino neighborhoods. We have defacto segregation according to race and economic class. In America, public schools are paid for (through property taxes) and controlled (as in the curriculum) by the local populations. Students generally attend local schools. A black child who lives in a black neighborhood that's statistically poor does not get the same educational opportunities that a white one does. Combine educational opportunity and attainment with a fathers' earnings being the best predictor of his children's economic future and you have a real problem. If you want to fix America's murder rate, you need to address the underlying problems which have created a situation where gang membership looks like a good career choice. Those are both economic and cultural. Quote I wonder what it is that is so different about US culture that makes people so ready to pick up a gun and shoot someone. It is that society there depicts people as successes or otherwise by the value of their assets? Is it that people are told that they need all kinds of matierial object to be happy? Is it the lack of ability to communicate effectivly? America is a big place. In locations where nearly everyone has good jobs we don't kill each other appreciably more than the rest of the world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #56 April 5, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteI think that people who have a tendency toward violence will find one way or another whether guns are available or not. My question is what makes people have that tendency towards violence? I don't suppose that Americans are any more prone towards the tendency than any european nationality, If shootings are excluded, I don't believe the data show Americans to be more violent than Europeans. The really significant anomaly is in shootings. But it can't have anything to do with the availabilty of guns. Oh no. If it had anything to do with the availability of guns, blood would have run red in the streets of small rural towns where boys kept rifles and shotguns in their vehicles so they could hunt on the way to and from school. If it had anything to do with the availability of guns, the murder rate would have been higher before the Gun Control Act of 1968 when it became illegal to sell guns through the mail If it had anything to do with the availability of guns, the murder rates where any one could carry concealed would be higher than the places where handguns are effectively illegal. It doesn't have anything to do with legaly available guns. It's about economic and social issues that are much less comfortable to admit and a lot more difficult to fix. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #57 April 5, 2009 QuoteNothing clearly needs to be done. So you are happy with the level of violent crime in the US? If you are right and its not the guns then it is most likely the culture that leads to violent crime (Gun or otherwise) but hey if you're happy with that... I personally wouldn't be.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #58 April 5, 2009 I will not ever propose to remove any of our Constitutionally guaranteed rights. Anyone who proposes to do so and then insists they are concerned about rights is a liar and even worse, a subversive to our own constitution. A little here, a little there and pretty soon we look like other nations were you may get privileges but no rights. If the laws of other nations are so terrific why do millions of people still wish they can come here to live? Some of our finest citizens are some of our most recent as well, for they understand what it is that they have and do not take it for granted. This is not directed at you Jamille. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #59 April 5, 2009 In the sixth grade i was trusted by my principal to come to school with my shotgun so I could hunt after school without having to walk so far. I just left it and the ammunition in his office closet until after school. Sometimes the police would offer me a ride home after hunting if my sack of rabbits and pheasant was too heavy. Most people honked and waved as I walked down the shoulder of the road as I carried my shotgun in it's case. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #60 April 5, 2009 QuoteQuoteNothing clearly needs to be done. So you are happy with the level of violent crime in the US? If you are right and its not the guns then it is most likely the culture that leads to violent crime (Gun or otherwise) but hey if you're happy with that... I personally wouldn't be. Nothing needs to be done about the guns. We need to do something about the circumstances that leave limited attractive alternatives to gange life. Add apprenticeship and trade programs to primary school curiculum. Provide more state and federal funding. Give college or trade school to any one who graduates highschool. Bring outside talent in to inner city schools - if we can pay contractors six figures to head for the war zones of Iraq we can do the same thing domestically. It wouldn't be cheap, although reducing the money spent on prisoners ($40K per year per prisoner in California) could offset a lot of it. The hard part here is that education as a value and the drive to succeed in a career usually gets picked up from people's parents. I value education and am an engineer because my parents did and my dad was an engineer. His dad was an engineer and even my grandmother went to college (math major). My great grandfather was essentially an engineer (applied geophysics) with a PhD. It never even occurred to my sister and I that people did something other than go to college and get a job which requires an education. You have to jump start that some how. Legalizing drugs and prostitution would cut the primary reasons for turf wars, but there has to be an alternative more attractive than jobs for unskilled labor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #61 April 5, 2009 well, i can name about four shootings from the last year, some, if not all, including the army issued guns.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #62 April 6, 2009 Quote...never ever there was any need to teach them how to shoot. What for? I believe it is my responsibility to teach my children how to use firearms for the same reasons I believe it is my responsibility to teach them how to drive, to teach them about safe sex, and to teach them many other things. They will live in a world where there are various things that they can use as tools, but which might injure them if mis-used. I want them to know how to use those things properly, to minimize the chance they will be hurt. Parenting isn't all about what's "more fun." Some of it is about teaching things that your children ought to know to live happier, safer, more productive lives.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #63 April 6, 2009 Quote I guess it has to do with the more newsworthy gun incidents and the fact that there are a lot more people who drink alcohol than there are who own guns.(?) You can't advertise guns on TV so news networks don't have to worry about losing a potential advertiser. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iceburner 0 #64 April 6, 2009 one thing i've noticed is that the mass media coverage these shootings have gotten resembles the mass media coverage the school shootings got years back. I believe if the shootings got a little less hype then less nut cases would think "hey, that's a good idea!" When the school shootings got little more than a mention in the national media, they dropped in "popularity" and haven't happened as frequently. Not a solution by any means, but less national coverage may make it less frequent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #65 April 6, 2009 Quote They pick their targets because they have an issue with the people or what the facility represents to them. It has nothing to do with whether or not they think they'll be successful in getting away with it. In fact most of the times they PLAN on dying in the process. Do you really think such mass murder could happen on a shooting range?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #66 April 6, 2009 QuoteWe need to do something about the circumstances that leave limited attractive alternatives to gange life. Add apprenticeship and trade programs to primary school curiculum. Provide more state and federal funding. Give college or trade school to any one who graduates highschool. Bring outside talent in to inner city schools - if we can pay contractors six figures to head for the war zones of Iraq we can do the same thing domestically. It wouldn't be cheap, although reducing the money spent on prisoners ($40K per year per prisoner in California) could offset a lot of it. Some good ideas there, however I'm wondering just how many people in the poorer classes in the US actually finish highschool, but more than that I would be suprised if there was the will amoung the people to support such a foreard thinking initative. With Obama trying to make healthcare more available to the masses you'd think he was asking people to reduce their pay by half! Maybe part of the problem is that many people don't seem to care about the rest of society only about themselves. That said, I like your ideas and think that they would be a move in the right direction.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #67 April 6, 2009 QuoteI've got a better idea for you - TEACH the child at a young age that it's not a friggin toy. TAKE them to the range and show them HOW to safely handle a firearm. I would make it MANDATORY in school.....it would produce children familiar with guns and what they can do and prevent a lot of accidents of children playing with them. Just like sex education..there needs to be meaninful firearms training because the parents in much of this country are woefully INEPT at teaching their children ANYTHING A little bit of responsibility and knowledge goes a long way.... and we could also lessen the abject fear of handguns that people like some of our prolific gun-a-phobes here in SC have. ( MAYBE they need some training so they can react rationally to the discussions....) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #68 April 6, 2009 QuoteQuoteI've got a better idea for you - TEACH the child at a young age that it's not a friggin toy. TAKE them to the range and show them HOW to safely handle a firearm. I would make it MANDATORY in school.....it would produce children familiar with guns and what they can do and prevent a lot of accidents of children playing with them. How will this prevent a looney from offing a bunch of innocent people?If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #69 April 6, 2009 Quote Quote Quote I've got a better idea for you - TEACH the child at a young age that it's not a friggin toy. TAKE them to the range and show them HOW to safely handle a firearm. I would make it MANDATORY in school.....it would produce children familiar with guns and what they can do and prevent a lot of accidents of children playing with them. How will this prevent a looney from offing a bunch of innocent people? how will this ensure people wash their hands after using a restroom? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #70 April 6, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote I've got a better idea for you - TEACH the child at a young age that it's not a friggin toy. TAKE them to the range and show them HOW to safely handle a firearm. I would make it MANDATORY in school.....it would produce children familiar with guns and what they can do and prevent a lot of accidents of children playing with them. How will this prevent a looney from offing a bunch of innocent people? how will this ensure people wash their hands after using a restroom? You're posting in the wrong thread.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #71 April 6, 2009 Quote The Brady folks bleat about 'violent video games'... I think glorification of criminals in modern popular music and movies is a more likely source, if such things *do* have an effect. Another individual asserting a connection between violent video games and violent crime is the same guy who wrote the sheepdog, wolf, sheep analogy. Even I can’t resist noting the irony of “bleating” there. From Dave Grossman’s, LTC USA (ret) own website: Violent Games can Condition Children for Violent Behavior Big Game Hunting: A Former Soldier and Expert on Killing Sets His Sights on Violent Video Games 'Stop Teaching Our Kids to Kill' Author Takes Aim at Video Games One of Grossman’s own book, entitled: Stop Teaching Our Kids to Kill: A Call to Action Against TV, Movie and Video Game Violence Grossman citing MRI research by others in his Media Violence Update I’d call it a hypothesis that might be the genesis of investigations … aka the “hmmm…” and “huh…” that might inspire investigation, but the causal mechanism and social science is less certain (to put it diplomatically). /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #72 April 6, 2009 Quotethe parents in much of this country are woefully INEPT at teaching their children ANYTHING A little bit of responsibility and knowledge goes a long way.... While I agree, I don't think removing more parental responsibility and accountability is the answer.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #73 April 6, 2009 Good discussions. Thanks! QuoteAmerica is a big place. In locations where nearly everyone has good jobs we don't kill each other appreciably more than the rest of the world. It's pretty clear that violent crime and property crime correlate strongly with poverty, lack of education, and lack of civil institutions. (Educated & wealthy criminals predominantly pursue other forms of crime.) One that's harder to measure and, admittedly, anecdotal, is lack (or perceived lack) of opportunity. I spent a number of years living in South Central Los Angeles, including during the 1992 riots: the sense of hopelessness was pervasive. It's hard to measure. My observation is that the US has largely spent the last 25 years in a 'get tough on crime' re-active mentality (ties into drug sentencing as well). The US has tried harsher sentencing ... and it doesn't work. The US has the highest incarceration rate. That's relevant to overall violent crime rate. Gang crime is another area that introduces more variables (that's a situation closer to insurgencies, imo, and like snowflakes, each insurgency is unique). At the same time, I'm not sure those cases reflect the perpetrators of the sort of violence that sparked this thread and a few of the other recent ones. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybill 19 #74 April 6, 2009 QuoteQuote...never ever there was any need to teach them how to shoot. What for? I believe it is my responsibility to teach my children how to use firearms for the same reasons I believe it is my responsibility to teach them how to drive, to teach them about safe sex, and to teach them many other things. They will live in a world where there are various things that they can use as tools, but which might injure them if mis-used. I want them to know how to use those things properly, to minimize the chance they will be hurt. Parenting isn't all about what's "more fun." Some of it is about teaching things that your children ought to know to live happier, safer, more productive lives. Hi Tom, "Hit the nail on the head why don'tya'!!!" I concur.SCR-2034, SCS-680 III%, Deli-out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigbearfng 9 #75 April 6, 2009 I believe the dead cops WERE armed with guns and were properly trained in their use (unlike many civilians). Didn't seem to help them. I usually don't bother with these discussions but.... Now for a LEO perspective. Yes the cops were armed and trained and still died. However if we responded to every call such as this with rifles/shotguns aimed on entry; well, the public and media would be screaming that it was an over reaction/racially motivated, blah blah blah!!!! So the street cop has to temper their response. And the way I look at it is the way our hands are tied the bad guy is always going to get a first shot free. That's the unfortunate facts of life..... If it comes in as an active shooter call then we can respond without quite so many monday morning quarterbacks. Now for some further examples-(real by the way) In Florida there was a "test run" by terrorists- two men boarded a school bus full of kids, glared at the bus driver, sat down, wearing heavy clothing, refused to leave. Responding cops arrested them with minimal force. But if it was a real bombing they would of been wrong and a bus full of kids would of been dead. Or if they had taken the head shots and no bombs found the media would of crucified them. Real FBI stats are that in stranger abductions of kids 75% are dead within 3 hours and 98% in 3 days. If you see it going down do you take the shot? Either way you're going to get all the monday morning quarterbacks second guessing you after the fact. And as far as "american culture" , "gun culture" being to blame.....try taking a look at a changing parenting culture instead-take a long hard look at that one! Along with the resulting change in values that result. Oh BTW, Washington DC has about the most restrictive gun laws on the books, and also has the highest violent crime rate. And yea, if someone has a real suggestion to a solution speak up! A solution that doesn't trample all your civil rights also. But don't even waste time with ban all guns-if you could only see what illegal heavy weapons come in along with the illegal drugs....... OK, end of what I meant as food for thought and I guess was kind of a rant.... sorry it got so long..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
