Texas "fact-optional" science education bill

[billvon 2,400]

This is an odd one:

=====================
Tue, Mar. 17, 2009

Don't penalize Texas students for any belief about science, bill says
By EVA-MARIE AYALA

Don’t believe in the theory of relativity?

Students wouldn’t have to and could not be penalized for it in school under proposed legislation filed Friday.

Teachers could not be penalized, either, if they reject plate tectonics or the kinetic theory of gases.

The bill says that neither student nor teacher could be penalized for subscribing to any particular position on any scientific theories or hypotheses.

"Students could claim they believe anything they wanted in anything in science and if that’s what they say, the teacher would be forced to give that student an A," said Steven Schafersman, president of Texas Citizens for Science. "That’s how bad this bill is written."

But Rep. Wayne Christian, R-Center, who filed the bill, said it is not an out for students, because they must still be evaluated on course materials taught.

"They can be lazy if they want to . . . but teachers are still in charge of the grading system," Christian said.

The bill does not address evolution specifically, but that seems to be its target. Its goal is to reintroduce the ability to teach "weaknesses" of scientific theories. After two days of heated debate, the State Board of Education narrowly voted this winter to remove a requirement that Texas public schools teach weaknesses in the theory of evolution.

The board is expected to finalize new science standards next week.

[quade 3]

America really needs to admit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiyYfqOPO8o.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rehmwa 2]

Sounds like an Onion article.

And still would seem more appropriate out of a very left wing (let the students arbitrarily pick their personal reality, we don't dare hurt their precious egos) or a very red neck state (god will decide what science is) rather than a state like Texas.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,400]

>Sounds like an Onion article.

I know! It's getting harder and harder for the Onion to keep up; reality is getting just as silly as satire.

[quade 3]

Quote

>Sounds like an Onion article.

I know! It's getting harder and harder for the Onion to keep up; reality is getting just as silly as satire.

Here's an easy way to tell the difference courtesy Rod Machado;

"Truth is stranger than fiction, because fiction has to make sense."

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

>Sounds like an Onion article.

I know! It's getting harder and harder for the Onion to keep up; reality is getting just as silly as satire.

AH!!! but now, we can enjoy reality as the excellent (satirical) comedy is truly is. So it's a win win for observers, and a huge tragedy for those who choose to invest themselves in it. (insert picks of the drama masks here)

we live in Monty Python times

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JohnRich 4]

Now that all you anti-religion bigots have thrown your little conniption fits, maybe you should slow down and actually try and learn the facts.

Here is the actual Bill, for your reading pleasure:
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/81R/billtext/html/HB04224I.htm

It's very short and won't take but a minute of your time.

Quote:

"Students may be evaluated based upon their understanding of course materials, but no student in any public school or institution shall be penalized in any way because he or she subscribes to a particular position on scientific theories or hypotheses."

Gosh, that doesn't sound so horrible, does it?

It doesn't mean that science won't continue to be taught in Texas schools.

All it means is that teachers can't discriminate against students who believe in creationism rather than evolution. But the student will still have to pass tests showing that he understands the theory of evolution, even if he doesn't personally agree with it.

So what's wrong with that?

I'm sure you wouldn't want creationists discriminating against evolutionists, and likewise, evolutionists should discriminate against creationists. We're all welcome to our own personal beliefs, and it's the job of public schools to teach the various theories to our children.

It sounds to me like the reporter was showing a bit of bias, and not reporting the true facts, which are plain to see in the actual Bill.

[billvon 2,400]

>Gosh, that doesn't sound so horrible, does it?

So a science teacher who teaches that the moon is made of cheese, that disease comes from evil spirits and that thermodynamics is just a fancy home heating system should be legally protected from any action taken to try to revise their curriculum? Yes, that's horrible, and will make a joke of science education in Texas. I am surprised you would support it.

>I'm sure you wouldn't want creationists discriminating against
>evolutionists, and likewise, evolutionists should discriminate against
>creationists.

Of course not! You can believe whatever you like. You just can't teach kids that diseases are caused by evil spirits in science class.

>We're all welcome to our own personal beliefs . . .

We are indeed.

>and it's the job of public schools to teach the various theories to our children.

Agreed 100%. And if you want to teach creationism in religion class, good for you. Go for it.

[regulator 0]

Damn...what school did you go to? I know there are everyones fair share of 'debateable' ethics regarding teachers but I'm sure they all have some form of curriculum guide they have to adhere to.

[billvon 2,400]

> I know there are everyones fair share of 'debateable' ethics
>regarding teachers but I'm sure they all have some form of curriculum
>guide they have to adhere to.

Exactly! And passing a law that says teachers cannot be penalized for not teaching the curriculum is nuts.

[Capt.Slog 0]

Quote

I'm sure you wouldn't want creationists discriminating against evolutionists, and likewise, evolutionists should discriminate against creationists. We're all welcome to our own personal beliefs, and it's the job of public schools to teach the various theories to our children.
.

Creationism is neither science, nor a theory.

[lawrocket 3]

Hmmm. I can see both sides of this, bill.

Here's from John Rich's link:

Quote

Sec. 28.0027. STUDY OF SCIENCE.
(a) As part of the essential knowledge and skills of the science curriculum under Section 28.002(a)(1)(C), the State Board of Education by rule shall establish elements relating to instruction on the scientific hypotheses and theories for grades 6-12.
(b) Instructional elements for scientific processes: the student uses critical thinking and scientific problem solving to make informed decisions. The student is expected to analyze, review, and critique scientific explanations, including hypotheses and theories, as to their strengths and weaknesses using scientific evidence and information;
(c) Students may be evaluated based upon their understanding of course materials, but no student in any public school or institution shall be penalized in any way because he or she subscribes to a particular position on scientific theories or hypotheses;
(d) No governmental entity shall prohibit any teacher in a public school system of this state from helping students to understand, analyze, review, and critique scientific explanations, including hypotheses and theories, as to their strengths and weaknesses using scientific evidence and formation.

On the one side, I can see how this law could be used to allow the teaching of religious theories. Personally, I don't have a problem with that. "Some religions believe in a divine Creator. Here's what they think." Of course, a student shall then be taught methods to disprove the suggestion of creationism. And of course, the right-wing bible-thumper is prohibited from penalizing the child for subscribing to the position that is contrary to the teacher of intelligent design.

And vice-versa.


I would actually like to see this law expanded to cover "social science," as well. For example, let's say that Mr. Teacher teaches his class that guns should be outlawed and has the students read study only materials provided by the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence and the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. When the students are given an assigment to state the reasons why the student believes that private gun ownership should be abolished, I would hope that a student not be penalized for writing, "I do not agree for the following reasons."

Or, if the student wrote an essay as to why he believed Creationism is flawed.

Or why Reagan was the Antichrist.

Etc.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 2,400]

>Personally, I don't have a problem with that.

You don't have a problem with religion being taught in science classes? (Specifically, passing a law to allow that.) I'm surprised at that.

[gjhdiver 0]

Quote

We're all welcome to our own personal beliefs, and it's the job of public schools to teach the various theories to our children.

Ahhh there's the flaw you see. Creationism is a superstition, not a theory.

You can teach that nonsense in the privacy of your own homes.

[quade 3]

Quote

Ahhh there's the flaw you see. Creationism is a superstition, not a theory.

You can teach that nonsense in the privacy of your own homes.

That's going a bit far. They can teach it anywhere they'd like as long as it's not on the government's dime. Sunday school would be perfectly fine.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[JackC 0]

Selling out your childrens education just to get a superstition into a science class, that's nothing short of child abuse.

[rushmc 18]

It is more like when a science teacher penalizes students when they argue that man ativities are not yet proven to have masive affects on the weather/climate.

Which it has not yet been proven and, I have seen a student get a lower grade even though the tests and class work proved a higher grade was earned.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Selling out your childrens education just to get a superstition into a science class, that's nothing short of child abuse.

Yes, such as the man made climate change argument.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[hwt 0]

If they want to critique the bible,You need only go to Adam and Eve having two Children , Cain and Abel . Now how did those two guys do it? Blue Skies!

[billvon 2,400]

>It is more like when a science teacher penalizes students when they argue that man ativities . . .

Hey, look! A climate change argument, RushMC's favorite! Perhaps you could start a thread about climate change.

>Which it has not yet been proven and, I have seen a student get a lower
>grade even though the tests and class work proved a higher grade was earned.

Right. And if a student wrote on his test that the earth was flat, the moon was made of cheese and diseases are caused by evil spirits, should he get an A? What if he really believed that?

[rushmc 18]

Quote

>It is more like when a science teacher penalizes students when they argue that man ativities . . .

Hey, look! A climate change argument, RushMC's favorite! Perhaps you could start a thread about climate change.

>Which it has not yet been proven and, I have seen a student get a lower
>grade even though the tests and class work proved a higher grade was earned.

Right. And if a student wrote on his test that the earth was flat, the moon was made of cheese and diseases are caused by evil spirits, should he get an A? What if he really believed that?

Do you have any point at all here?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,400]

>Do you have any point at all here?

Yep. If you answer the question I asked you, I will be happy to tell you what it is.

[rushmc 18]

Quote

>Do you have any point at all here?

Yep. If you answer the question I asked you, I will be happy to tell you what it is.

you did not ask a question. You yet again posted a smart ass remark.

I posted something that really happened.

You posted bunk. Well?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jakee 1,255]

Quote

(a) As part of the essential knowledge and skills of the science curriculum ...

(b) Instructional elements for scientific processes...

(c) ...but no student in any public school or institution shall be penalized in any way because he or she subscribes to a particular position on scientific theories or hypotheses.

(d) No governmental entity shall prohibit any teacher in a public school system of this state from helping students to understand, analyze, review, and critique scientific explanations...

Quote

On the one side, I can see how this law could be used to allow the teaching of religious theories.

Can you? How could this law, unless utilised by clueless idiots, enable religion to be taught in a science classroom? What religious theories can legitimately be described as scientific in the way this bill prescribes?



(I know what the bill is meant to do, I just think the pople who wrote it are so uninformed that they didn't actually authorise anything that they think they did!)

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,400]

>you did not ask a question.

I did indeed; perhaps your monitor is too small and you couldn't see it. Here it is again:

"If a student wrote on his test that the earth was flat, the moon was made of cheese and diseases are caused by evil spirits, should he get an A?"