idrankwhat 0 #51 February 12, 2009 QuoteAnd many of people that have TRUSTED that science have died because of its flaws. Airplanes (product of science)...FAIL, parachutes (product of science.....FAIL. My faith is that I know enough that science (people based) is not perfect and always right. The physics, chemistry, and engineering behind the technology is not what failed. The failures you mention can be explained scientifically, which more often than not, will end up pointing the error at the human component of the equation. Of course then you can pursue the answer further if you examine the biochemical aspects of the decision making process of the human. Isn't science fun?!?!!?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,255 #52 February 12, 2009 Quote People are told its a proven fact and not to question it. Evolution is a fact. But since there is an enormous amount of ongoing research on evolution in lots of different fields, I'm not sure where you get the "don't question it" from? Quote No one can explain how a irreducibly complex mechanism can form How can they, when no-one has yet demonstrated that any irreducibly complex mechanisms exist? Quote The flagella must form all at one time No, they must not. Quote (not to mention that mutations are supposed to be the cause of evolution but mutations are not passed to the child organism) What? Quote Another example would be how is a half bird half lizard more adapt? It can run as fast as a lizard or fly.....therefore it is eliminated. What? Quote Evolution is in conflict with its own rules and therefore cannot stand. No, it isn't. The grotesque charicature you've created may be in conflict with evolution's rules, but evolution itself is not. Quote Evolution has not be observed or experimented with in the lab A plain lie. Quote so there is nothing to argue about. Not with someone like you.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,255 #53 February 12, 2009 Quote Quote So what was your claim about "90% of the population" based on? What was your methodology on that one? or were you just spouting unsupported bullshit? Your hostility is getting the best of you. It was not my claim, do the research and find out for yourself. I posted it trying to get opinions about it. It was your claim, you posted it. If you wont address statistics sourced from a link already posted in this thread because you don't know how they were arrived at, why do you expect anyone else to address statistics that you won't even provide the source of? Quote Personally I don't tend to go with non-fact based belief. Remember that most people once believed the earth was flat. Right. A belief that was based on absolutely no scientific principles, and was not experimentally verified in any way. Much like belief in God.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #54 February 12, 2009 By the way, this was a very interesting program addressing the Science/ID debate. Good stuff. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,255 #55 February 12, 2009 Quote Why any discussion of evolution quickly turns into a religion vs. atheism debate is beyond me. Evolution and religion are completely compatible. A) Because this site is full of Americans. B) This discussion started out as evolution vs religion.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #56 February 12, 2009 Quote Quote Why any discussion of evolution quickly turns into a religion vs. atheism debate is beyond me. Evolution and religion are completely compatible. A) Because this site is full of Americans. [psuedo-silly] So how do you explain that link I posted about all those UK folks believing in ghosts? [/psuedo-silly] /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #57 February 12, 2009 QuoteUnless you, a family member, or close friend died from an MRSABoth father and grandfather died of MRSA.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,255 #58 February 12, 2009 QuoteSo how do you explain that link I posted about all those UK folks believing in ghosts? Aliens altered the results.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #59 February 12, 2009 QuoteQuoteUnless you, a family member, or close friend died from an MRSABoth father and grandfather died of MRSA. My sincerest condolences. There are about 18,000 deaths and about 100,000 illnesses a year related to MRSA in the US alone. (More deaths per year from MRSA than AIDS in 2005 and anticipated for years forward.) That Staphylococcus aureus evolved a methicillin resistance is a public health issue; some argue it's a crisis. The evolution of Staphylococcus aureus bacteria to acquire resisistance to antibiotics, i.e., to become a 'superbug', is largely based on human activities and human choices of other people, for which your family has had to bare consequences. Recognizing and understanding how such pathogens evolved is one step to understanding how to treat and prevent them. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #60 February 12, 2009 Quote I would put that under the 'want to' catagory. I recognize that many people feel the need to believe in deitys simply because it makes them feel special or that they have a purpose in life. I think they are deluding themselves. But what if that serves an evolutionary purpose? We know that altruism and cooperation serve evolutionary purposes. Just a few examples off the top of my head (when I first put responded to another thread : Moral (or usually expressed as the positivist “cooperative behavior”) has been shown to be an evolutionary trait that benefits human survival, e.g., “the Grandmother (& Grandfather) Hypothesis.” Reciprocal Altruism, which traces its citation lineage to Darwin. Myriad examples of altruistic behavior have been observed in creatures from primates to birds to ants, all with benefits. [entering full-on speculative mode] What if the human desire to place human at the center of the Universe as special creations serves (served) some evolutionary purpose? Is it 'hard-wired' into our neural development? If humans were intelligent reptiles, would we have a concept of higher powers? I honestly don't know ... am asking the questions ... and trying to do so in a positivist ('scientific') manner rather than a normative ('shoulds') or perjorative manner. What would the transhumanists/post-humanists/Kurzweilian singularity say about that? [/speculative mode] There are underlying issues of what it means to be human and what role technology has in challenging those meanings. There are scientific components to addressing (nevermind trying to answer those & other emerging technology issues) *and* there are ethical (some would call 'moral') components. Both are important. (And there are economic & capitalist drivers too.) /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #61 February 12, 2009 That is an interesting thought and may well be true. Maybe it is begining to lean the other direction? Maybe we are begining to evolve to the point where we don't have to believe we are the center of the Universe?? I don't have the statistics handy, but I think there are more people today that disbelieve in deitys then there were say 200 years ago. Will we be moving towards a point in human history when the majority of people drop the belief in deitys? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #62 February 12, 2009 Quote Maybe it is begining to lean the other direction? Maybe we are begining to evolve to the point where we don't have to believe we are the center of the Universe?? Since evolution doesn't really have a preference or implication for progress as we usually think of it, I'm not sure if thinking about it purely in terms of 'evolution' is approporiate. Perhaps contra-evolution, post-evolution, or human-induced mechanisms that intersect with but are not dependent on evolution? QuoteI don't have the statistics handy, but I think there are more people today that disbelieve in deitys then there were say 200 years ago. Will we be moving towards a point in human history when the majority of people drop the belief in deitys? I don't know if that's true or not: 200 years ago there were a lot of hard-core Enlightenment deists, at least in the western world. The rise to prominence of the 'personal God' concept came in the late 19th Century. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #63 February 12, 2009 another thread about this...why do they have to be mutually exclusive? How about this. I'm a Christian. I'm a college-educated scientist/engineer. I believe that science provides and in fact is itself proof of God. It's one of the ways we draw closer to Him. As for anti-intellectualism, that's another thread, imho Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #64 February 12, 2009 'Shrug' Good for you! I don't agree with you, but hey what fun would it be if everyone agreed on everything? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #65 February 12, 2009 QuoteAs for anti-intellectualism, that's another thread, imho I took it as meaning that people who are older and more educated about evolution can make an educated decision. If you just go up to someone that isn't educated about evolution, they are likey to laugh at you, especially if you say something about monkeys. Besides...even though you personally believe in God, you still give credibility to the numbers that say educated people believe in evolution.... Even if they were to ascribe non-belief to intelligence, it wouldn't really mean anything...It could easily be said that pride, or fear of embarassment among colleages could be the cause of their lack of faith or at least the reason they hide it....not inteligence.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #66 February 12, 2009 where did i say i didn't "believe" in evolution? trust me, i am firmly in the evolution camp. I'm just saying they don't have to be mutually exclusive. I'm not blaming one side or the other, BOTH sides of this argument seem to think that they can't co-exist. You seem to imply that i can't "believe" in both? Why not? edited to add: I put "believe" in quotes because all this talk of "believing" in evolution is rather silly. you don't "believe" in science, it's a very thorough and established process for determining answers. "Belief" is left for faith and spirituality. so why can't we have both? I believe in god. I also am educated in the scientific method, understand how it works, and am enlightened by scientific discoveries. they just ARE. there's no "belief" about it.Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #67 February 12, 2009 Quotewhere did i say i didn't "believe" in evolution? You didn't...I'm sorry if I was unclear. I wasn't saying you didn't "believe" in evolution...I was saying you "believed" in both, thus giving credibility to the notion stated earlier that educated people "believe" in Evolution simply because they're educated in it... I think we're actually in agreement. I'm just probably a little more indifferent about evloution than you are...for me, it's just another thing to know. Knowledge that I personally really don't have much of a use for...so I'll just leave it to the scientists...I got enough to do, and finding the missing link ain't one of them. peaceYour secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #68 February 12, 2009 It's a strawman argument used on slow news days. The jury has been back for over 20 years. There are no seriously considered peer reviewed arguments in favor of creationism, despite the smug certainty of superstitious cretins. And with "Atheist" and "No belief" now running art 11% and climbing up from 4% less that 15 years ago, I'm not too worried that as the US ages, the idiots will start to die out and congregate in smaller and smaller areas of the rural US. I'd be interested to see a correlation between median income and belief in creationism. I'd lay money on the poorer and less educated you are, the more likely that "Magic" will suffice as an explanation for anything you don't fully understand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #69 February 12, 2009 Quote The evolution of Staphylococcus aureus bacteria to acquire resisistance to antibiotics, i.e., to become a 'superbug', is largely based on human activities and human choices of other people, for which your family has had to bare consequences. So long as we're being a bit cheeky, I view staph as proof against ID, or at the very least that any God is a uncaring SOB. It's clear evolution, in response to us trying to help ourselves with antibiotics, but there's little intelligence to such a design, just bad results for us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #70 February 12, 2009 QuoteI'd lay money on the poorer and less educated you are, the more likely that "Magic" will suffice as an explanation for anything you don't fully understand. That's a nice horse you got there....giddy up! ....make sure you've got your rig incase you fall off!Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #71 February 12, 2009 Some of us evolved. Some didn't. There, now everybody's happy! Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmkellett 0 #72 February 12, 2009 Fundamentalist bullcrap. complete lack of any understanding of evolution. total denial of the obvious, repetition of old worn out and DISPROVEN rantings by people clutching at straws who have no idea what they are talking about. If you honestly believe this you are a lost soul Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmkellett 0 #73 February 12, 2009 QuoteQuoteEvidence makes science more believable the God!! There is no tangible evidence for God, science is based on tangible evidence. If that is true then why does 90% of the population believe otherwise? Well in FL that figure would not suprise me at all. But just because 90% of the local population in a well known bible bashing belt believe in bullcrap does not make bullcrap into anything but bullcrap. Now in Norway / Sweden about the same figure believe the OPPOSITE , so who is right??? Lots of people worshipping does not make a deity leap into existence... madness is still madness no matter how many madmen bow and scrape Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #74 February 13, 2009 Saying there is no God is a much of a religion as saying there is one. In other words, they are as pasionate about their religion as are those who believe in God. Global warminng (the man made type) is the same thing. Belief in a God is not really a rational thing. Neither is the belief that there is no God. Neither is the belief that man is heating the planet. Point? None of the above can be proven or dis-proven. To argue with someone about their religion is a pointless effort. Cause we are talking about the un-provable. By the way, please remember I do believe in a God. I really dont care if I am correct or not.. Why? cause it helps me live MY life better. I really dont care what other who disagree with me believe, until they try and force their way on me. I dont try and force my way on them. The way the Obama plan is. The Obama plan you ask? His porkulas bill offers money to colleges to rebuild buildings. There is one caviot however. Money can not be spent to rebuild ANY college building where students meet to worship God. ANY building. A student union, a teaching hall, anywhere. Government shall make no law......... is bull shit"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #75 February 13, 2009 Quote His porkulas bill Hiya Pot... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Man I am feelling all that christian love..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
