“America’s Disappearing Industrial Base”

[kallend 1,635]

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you'd not be able to skydive until you got a new rig.

And you'd not be seen on DZ until 2010.

There are rigs made outside the US and DZcom comes from Canadian servers regardless of who owns it. Of course unlike most of the people on here I am using a made in USA computer.

Mine is a made in my living room computer.

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I'm impressed. What diameter silicon boules did you grow? How did you mask the silicon wafers? Did you use giant magnetoresistive heads on the disk drive?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[gearless_chris 1]

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Some of the arguments I hear on this forum seem to reflect the idea that the manufacturing of objects should be placed on some pedastal compared to other types of industry.

Yet how many on this thread are in the manufacturing industry?

I'll bet that the vast majority of you are in the information/engineering/service or science industries in one form or another.

And I'll bet many of you have years of experience and Bachelors & higher degrees to help you do what you do.

Do you really think it would be better for the economy if you quit your current job, with all your skills & expertise (in your non-manufacturing industry), and started sewing sportswear?

I'm in manufacturing. We lost several hundred people a couple years ago when we got underbid by a foreign company. We had almost 600 union workers at one point now we have 65 union workers after we just laid off 25. We're expecting more lay offs when we come back from Christmas shutdown, but don't know exactly when. We had business lined up from a German plant, but the Euro dropped and we lost that. We're one of 3 company's that are in the running for a military contract, I hope that goes well for us. Now that we have a Democrat president, military spending will probably be cut also, so it may be temporary.
I've heard of companies sending their employees to other countries for medical care so even doctors aren't safe from outsourcing.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[joedirt 0]

I haven't seen anyone else mention so... a trade deficit requires a DEBT to pay for it. There's just no way around it. If your debt gets bigger and bigger, eventually people don't want to lend to you. That could collapse your currency.

So it's only a problem if you think we need a manufacturing base to have a surplus again.

[feuergnom 22]

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As I posted above, I don't know anyone among my circles of friends that are in manufacturing. And they are certainly not flipping burgers.

Understood, but it simply doesn't create "real" wealth for the country to shuffle paper in a circle.

Think of it like people standing in a circle giving each other a massage. Ok, sure, we all feel better afterward, but if we all turn around and give each other $20 bucks for the service, no actual wealth has been created.

and this is the essence of what karl marx said a very long time ago

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[Andy9o8 0]

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What would happen if the rest of us spent "a year without Made in USA?"

We'd all be driving Volvos that last 300,000 miles.

[nerdgirl 0]

My opinion is that it’s evolving … & my conclusions/thoughts/recommendations are still evolving. Yes, it should be a point of concern. (Not hype, not over-reaction.)

There is a shift in source of power. It used to be exclusively mass (of people) and stuff (horses, tanks, etc). In the 20th Century it was precision, speed (both literal and communications), stealth and tactical ISR … largely via material stuff. It’s not clear what will be deciding factor for ensuring advantage in the 21st century. We are shifting to a knowledge-based economy.

The US is not going to return to being a predominantly agrarian nation but that does not mean the US should outsource all food production overseas.

Similarly the US is not going to return to an economy or labor base that is predominantly manufacturing. That does not likewise eliminate the need for manufacturing capability within the US.

I intentionally included the TAP case as a non-hypothetical, illustrative example of a specific security-related need for manufacturing secure microelectronics. Another example: a few years ago, the sole US manufacturer of the carbonaceous material used as absorbent in the canister for the M40-series Chemical-Biological Masks (“gas masks”) decided to stop manufacturing that material. They weren’t upgrading or even planning to offer another material (which would not automatically be compatible or meet requirements). The sole source is a German manufacturer. Now, Germany is not China. And the absorbent material is used by multiple NATO nations; the same canisters are NATO standard. Nonetheless, should the US depend on Germany for manufacture of a critical component of personal protection gear for soldiers and Marines? (The DoD didn’t think so.)

As was noted, businesses exist for profit. Profit. Not national security – I don’t care what the voice-over on Lockheed Martin’s commercials during the Sunday morning news shows intones (or is it Boeing?). Profit was the motive for the sole US manufacturer of the carbon filter bed material to stop making it; it wasn’t profitable.

The US and other leading states are shifting/have shifted to knowledge-based sectors for generation of competitive advantage. The vast majority of those are not manufacturing jobs. All service sector jobs are not equal.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[SkyDekker 1,130]

Greed killed communism, what you are seeing now is greed slowly killing capitalism.

[kallend 1,635]

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The US and other leading states are shifting/have shifted to knowledge-based sectors for generation of competitive advantage. The vast majority of those are not manufacturing jobs. All service sector jobs are not equal.

VR/Marg

Generating knowledge IS generating wealth. Most service sector jobs do not generate knowledge (or wealth).

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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The US and other leading states are shifting/have shifted to knowledge-based sectors for generation of competitive advantage. The vast majority of those are not manufacturing jobs. All service sector jobs are not equal.

VR/Marg

Generating knowledge IS generating wealth. Most service sector jobs do not generate knowledge (or wealth).

They DO generate wealth: They provide some sort of service that someone else will pay them for. That IS a form of wealth.

Speed Racer
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[kallend 1,635]

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The US and other leading states are shifting/have shifted to knowledge-based sectors for generation of competitive advantage. The vast majority of those are not manufacturing jobs. All service sector jobs are not equal.

VR/Marg

Generating knowledge IS generating wealth. Most service sector jobs do not generate knowledge (or wealth).

They DO generate wealth: They provide some sort of service that someone else will pay them for. That IS a form of wealth.

No - we can't all survive by taking in each others' washing, even if someone will pay us to do it.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,413]

>we can't all survive by taking in each others' washing, even if someone will pay
>us to do it.

Actually we can, oddly enough. (At least financially.) You can make money by washing each other's clothes, teaching people to be teachers, even writing software that has no physical reality.

[kallend 1,635]

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>we can't all survive by taking in each others' washing, even if someone will pay
>us to do it.

Actually we can, oddly enough. (At least financially.) You can make money by washing each other's clothes, teaching people to be teachers, even writing software that has no physical reality.

I'd like to see one example of a society where no-one does anything but service the others.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

A purely service based economy is impossible; there must be some industrial goods. By the same token a purely industrial and service based economy cannot exist; there must be some agriculture. That does not mean that Singapore should begin hiving off large (for them) tracts of land for agricultural use. We have trade for that.
The decline of North American manufacturing is necessary if we are to maintain our superior standard of living. In Canada we worry about having manufacturing jobs but no head office jobs or research facilities as US corps swallow all our domestic producers.
US (and Canada) need cutting edge manufacturing facilities so we can not only keep ahead, but sell that know how to others. Run of the mill manufacturing that uses old tech and labour must be done by others. It is either that or have our consumption fall to world levels, and we certainly don't want that.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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>we can't all survive by taking in each others' washing, even if someone will pay
>us to do it.

Actually we can, oddly enough. (At least financially.) You can make money by washing each other's clothes, teaching people to be teachers, even writing software that has no physical reality.

I'd like to see one example of a society where no-one does anything but service the others.

It wouldn't happen. All sorts of jobs are needed by society. Some manufacturing jobs. Some service jobs.

I don't know what the deal is with people thinking that service industries are menial or unnecessary. They're just another type of industry.

For example, when you're ill you pay a doctor to help make you well. He gets the money, and you get an increased quality of life in return.

Just because the doctor is in the service industry & doesn't manufacture anything doesn't mean that his service doesn't add value to the economy.

Speed Racer
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[billvon 2,413]

>I'd like to see one example of a society where no-one does anything
>but service the others.

You can't have that. You need things like manufacturing, agriculture, infrastructure etc.

But if you're a game designer, you can spend your whole life writing games, paying other people to play their games - and pay someone else to do all the agriculture, manufacturing etc. If you started your own tiny "game country" on a deserted island you could do nothing but write (and play) games and import everything else you needed. (If you were a really good game designer, of course.)

[quade 3]

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But if you're a game designer, you can spend your whole life writing games, paying other people to play their games - and pay someone else to do all the agriculture, manufacturing etc. If you started your own tiny "game country" on a deserted island you could do nothing but write (and play) games and import everything else you needed. (If you were a really good game designer, of course.)

Please see thread subject line. We're not talking about small theoretical countries, we're talking about America. A country that used to be the most powerful economic force on the planet.

Now, not so much and it's our own fault too.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[akarunway 1]

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What would happen if the rest of us spent "a year without Made in USA?"

We'd all be driving Volvos that last 300,000 miles.

My BMW odometer stopped working at 300k. Damn shitty cars.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[billvon 2,413]

>We're not talking about small theoretical countries, we're talking about America.

Sorry, was just answering Kallend's comment. I know that we are becoming less powerful economically.

[kallend 1,635]

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>We're not talking about small theoretical countries, we're talking about America.

Sorry, was just answering Kallend's comment. I know that we are becoming less powerful economically.

I think you missed an important word in my point. My point was:

"we can't all survive by taking in each others' washing"

Most service industries don't create wealth (even in the broadest sense). They just shuffle it around, taking a cut as it passes by. And when the cut taken by the wealth shufflers gets bigger than the rewards for the wealth creators, we get the kind of distortions we've seen recently.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[masterrig 1]

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What would happen if the rest of us spent "a year without Made in USA?"

You actually have goods 'Made in U.S.A.'? The only thing I have been able to purchase in the last year that was 'totally' mad in the U.S.A. was a Henry rifle! Parts for that rifle are manufactured in Ohio, Missouri, Wisconsin and assembled at their plant in Brooklyn, New York. It's a beautiful piece of work and to my surprise, was not, what I would consider 'over-priced'. I'm just tired of the cheap, total crap, our store shelves are heaped with from China. To me, all we are doing is making China a wealthy nation and we are suffering the consequences. I'm tired too, of trying to get help for something I purchased and have to speak with someone who I do not understand and they don't understand me, in a foreign country. It just seems to me, the bottom line is 'GREED'.


Chuck

[Andrewwhyte 1]

My parachute, my computer (a Mac), my i-pod, and my car are all built in North America.
More importantly the software I run, the movies I watch, the food I eat, and the fuel I burn are dominated by North American content.

[nerdgirl 0]

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The US and other leading states are shifting/have shifted to knowledge-based sectors for generation of competitive advantage. The vast majority of those are not manufacturing jobs. All service sector jobs are not equal.

Generating knowledge IS generating wealth.

While you & I and many others may appreciate & recognize the intangible value in knowledge, all knowledge does not generate monetary wealth, e.g., a great deal of the arts and humanties. Even a great deal of basic reserach.*

*As you and I know and many others knows as well, that 10% or so of basic research that does lead to tangible wealth is sometimes priceless, from the basic research of vacuum tubes to NMR and virology to inhaled vaccines.

Decline in science and technology (S&T) base is a related but further complicating topic or two.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[kallend 1,635]

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The US and other leading states are shifting/have shifted to knowledge-based sectors for generation of competitive advantage. The vast majority of those are not manufacturing jobs. All service sector jobs are not equal.

Generating knowledge IS generating wealth.

While you & I and many others may appreciate & recognize the intangible value in knowledge, all knowledge does not generate monetary wealth, e.g., a great deal of the arts and humanties. Even a great deal of basic reserach.*

*As you and I know and many others knows as well, that 10% or so of basic research that does lead to tangible wealth is sometimes priceless, from the basic research of vacuum tubes to NMR and virology to inhaled vaccines.

Decline in science and technology (S&T) base is a related but further complicating topic or two.

VR/Marg

Is it a uniquely north American thing to equate "wealth" with "monetary wealth"? I believe Handel's "Messiah" enriches all of us, to give but one example that I happen to be listening to right now.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[quade 3]

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Is it a uniquely north American thing to equate "wealth" with "monetary wealth"? I believe Handel's "Messiah" enriches all of us, to give but one example that I happen to be listening to right now.

I dunno John, I think we gotta blame the Queen's english here for words with multiple meanings.

The entertainment industry IS an industry. Yes, it makes money. It is even a good export for our country and bring money into the US. You listening to it however, probably doesn't make you any money at all no matter how much it enriches your life.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kelpdiver 2]

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My parachute, my computer (a Mac), my i-pod, and

uh, as you asked me, where were the components in that mac made? Not all in the US, I can tell you. And only a small portion of Apple products are assembled in the US.