gregpso 1 #1 November 17, 2008 We have discussed the gun issue now the health care issue. As I have said I have had 2 wonderful holidays to the States and love the friendly people and tourist stuff there. I cannot understand how a nation that is rich as the USA and can find 10 billion a month for Iraq cannot find the money for free universal health care.(thru taxation) In Australia we have had it for 30 years. I pay around $700 on a salary of $53000 medicare levy per year (that is deducted from my tax return) For that free hospital and around 80 per cent rebate on visiting doctors tests etc and the most you pay for any medicine on the PBS is $33. (stuff like viagra non essential stuff is not on the PBS) A month ago I had to have a test in the bladder. Waited about a month free test in hospital with an overnight stay. How much would that have cost in the States. Sure you have private medical insurance but if you are sick they will not insure you or find ways not to pay. I have USA folk say OOH the government cannot run a health system cannot have a BEAURCRAT making decisions about your health. ACTUALLY I WOULD RATHER HAVE A BEAURCRAT (WHOSE SALARY DOES NOT DEPEND ON KNOCKING PEOPLE BACK) MAKING A DECISION THAN A PURELY FOR PROFIT COMPANY WHOSE JOB IT IS TO PAY AS LESS AS POSSIBLE OR NONE AT ALL TO MAXAMISE PROFIT FOR SHAREHOLDERS . in private health jargin a medical loss In Michael Moore sicko dvd they have doctors who work for the companies whose job it is to decline medical treatment. The more they decline the more money the doctor earns WHAT SORT OF DOCTOR IS THAT. Our public system is not perfect and there is waiting sometimes even 18 months for non life threatening operations but we also can buy private health insurance if we wish for alot less than the States. Amercians are decent people so the only reason this prevails must be the dogma that rules over there that the free market is best at running everything (and look what has happened recently) and any government programme is Socialism I really hope Obama can deliver on this for you. oh yeah I work security for the goverment. (just building security patrols etc). will earn around $60000 this year WITH 9 WEEKS leave and a 38 hour week I thinK that would sound pretty good to many less well off USA folk. (particularly in the security industry) (we still have a strong Union system here ) yet we still have a budget surplus) Do not be offended I am just comparing your rigid pure capitalism to our capitalism with social ( mayber even socialist) modifications. PS our unemployment insurance never runs out if you are seriously about looking for work. maybe the above has something to do with crime than gun ownership.. too much of the haves and have nots. yeah we still have crime and poverty but there is no reason for it an unemployed couple with a child would get around $900 per fortnight enough to rent and eat. Our elderly pesioners struggle a bit with a single elderly pensioner only getting about $380 per fortnight. We also have compulsory supperannuation for all workers all employers must put in 9% of the workers salary into a superannuation fund . by law it cannot be touched until you retire.... any way I am sitting at work now at 0500hrs in the morning working hard (NOT) watching security cameras and surfing the net. Life is pretty good really. Like America but glad I live hereI tend to be a bit different. enjoyed my time in the sport or is it an industry these days ?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #2 November 17, 2008 I stopped reading when you referenced Michael Moore as a source. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NewGuy2005 51 #3 November 17, 2008 Quote A month ago I had to have a test in the bladder. Waited about a month free test in hospital with an overnight stay. Waited about a month? What if you were in continuous pain or in danger? Also, it wasn't free. You paid for it, along with the the medical care of the people that don't work as hard as you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #4 November 17, 2008 Quote I pay around $700 on a salary of $53000 medicare levy per year (that is deducted from my tax return) Is the system run on that 700/mo, or is it also funded by income taxes? Please learn the purpose of paragraphs. Your lengthy posting was mostly wasted time because it's an ordeal to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #5 November 17, 2008 Quote Quote A month ago I had to have a test in the bladder. Waited about a month free test in hospital with an overnight stay. Waited about a month? What if you were in continuous pain or in danger? Also, it wasn't free. You paid for it, along with the the medical care of the people that don't work as hard as you. Because, like us he lives in a selfless society (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gregpso 1 #6 November 17, 2008 It was a routine test if any pain or danger straight in for treatment. $700 a year is cheap for universal health care. I take your point about paragraphs. At 0500hrs one makes mistakes. People from Britain get the idea like us we think as we not MEI tend to be a bit different. enjoyed my time in the sport or is it an industry these days ?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #7 November 17, 2008 Quote People from Britain get the idea like us we think as we not ME Yeap (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #8 November 17, 2008 Paragraph breaks and punctuation are your friends. Edit your OP and I'll try to read it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gregpso 1 #9 November 17, 2008 Every worker (over a certain amount ie low income earners pay nothing) pay around 1.5% levy for health care. The goverment pays the difference of course from revenue like income tax. From memory I paid about $12000 tax on a $60000 salary.I tend to be a bit different. enjoyed my time in the sport or is it an industry these days ?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #10 November 17, 2008 QuoteI cannot understand how a nation that is rich as the USA and can find 10 billion a month for Iraq Take a look at the budget deficit. Nope - we don't have it. Quotecannot find the money for free universal health care.(thru taxation) "Free" and "through taxation" cannot co-exist. QuoteIn Australia we have had it for 30 years. Good on you! Quote I pay around $700 on a salary of $53000 medicare levy per year (that is deducted from my tax return) For that free hospital and around 80 per cent rebate on visiting doctors tests etc and the most you pay for any medicine on the PBS is $33. Okay. SO it's not free. Quote month ago I had to have a test in the bladder. Waited about a month free test in hospital with an overnight stay. How much would that have cost in the States. It would have cost more money, but I could get a bladder test done tomorrow if I wanted it. I'll take paying $50 or $100 for a test if it means that problems taking a leak are handled promptly. But that's just me. QuoteSure you have private medical insurance but if you are sick they will not insure you or find ways not to pay. I've yet to encounter this - possibly because I disclosed all prior health conditions. If I were to say, "No orthopedic issues" and I'm up in five years for a knee replacement, I'd think they'd have a legitimate bitch covering it. Instead, I'll pay more for my insurance. Quote have USA folk say OOH the government cannot run a health system cannot have a BEAURCRAT making decisions about your health. ACTUALLY I WOULD RATHER HAVE A BEAURCRAT (WHOSE SALARY DOES NOT DEPEND ON KNOCKING PEOPLE BACK) MAKING A DECISION THAN A PURELY FOR PROFIT COMPANY WHOSE JOB IT IS TO PAY AS LESS AS POSSIBLE OR NONE AT ALL TO MAXAMISE PROFIT FOR SHAREHOLDERS If you think governments don't want to spend any more than necessary then good on you. But if they were really interested in your health then why'd you have to wait a month? Quoteprivate health jargin a medical loss In ANY jargon it is a loss. Governments look for reasons to deny things, too. QuoteThe more they decline the more money the doctor earns WHAT SORT OF DOCTOR IS THAT. The more they decline the less a doctor gets paid. QuoteOur public system is not perfect and there is waiting sometimes even 18 months for non life threatening operations Yep. That mole isn't life threatening. In another 6 months it can be. Quotebut we also can buy private health insurance if we wish for alot less than the States. Why would you? They'll deny, right? QuoteAmercians are decent people so the only reason this prevails must be the dogma that rules over there that the free market is best at running everything (and look what has happened recently) and any government programme is Socialism Check out government budgets. How good are they at running things? QuoteI really hope Obama can deliver on this for you. oh yeah I work security for the goverment. (just building security patrols etc). will earn around $60000 this year WITH 9 WEEKS leave and a 38 hour week Private industry would struggle to afford that. Quoteyet we still have a budget surplus) Good on ya! That's nice. QuoteDo not be offended I am just comparing your rigid pure capitalism to our capitalism with social ( mayber even socialist) modifications This ain't "pure capitlaism." Not by a long shot. That's why the govt. spends $3 trillion a year. QuotePS our unemployment insurance never runs out if you are seriously about looking for work. Who makes the determination of "seriously looking for work?" QuoteOur elderly pesioners struggle a bit with a single elderly pensioner only getting about $380 per fortnight. We also have compulsory supperannuation for all workers all employers must put in 9% of the workers salary into a superannuation fund . So is that taken off the top of your salary? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #11 November 17, 2008 QuoteEvery worker (over a certain amount ie low income earners pay nothing) pay around 1.5% levy for health care. The goverment pays the difference of course from revenue like income tax. From memory I paid about $12000 tax on a $60000 salary. It's very difficult to make a reasonable analysis if the cost isn't stated. $700/yr + plus an unknown amount of your 12000 income tax funds the health care that gets you a simple test done after a 30 day delay. BTW, if AUS is running a budget surplus, why did the currency collapse recently? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #12 November 17, 2008 QuoteThe more they decline the more money the doctor earns... Where is that? If an insurance claim is denied the doctor makes zero...zilch...nada...zip...that's nothing. Most of the doctors in the US have a payment rate hovering around 50% (it depends greatly on the specialty, obviously, with ER visits getting paid a much lower percentage of the time and some things like laser eye surgery approaching 100% reimbursement). Honestly, it sounds to me like you made up some weird caricature of the US healthcare system so that you could attack it on the grounds you chose. The US healthcare system has lots of problems. I do not believe that a government sponsored healthcare program is the solution--rather, I think that less government regulation (healthcare is just about the most regulated portion of our economy) would benefit us all. If you have time, and care to read something with paragraphs, that isn't put together in a slick package by a film producer who wants to tell everyone else how to solve all the world's problems, grab a copy of The Cure, which does a good job of explaining where the problems in our health system came from (primarily, from wage restrictions during the second world war), and recommends some approaches to fixing parts of it.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #13 November 17, 2008 Answering every single paragraph with a one liner doesn´t help much to prove your point. Actually you are quite socialist as well, because private health insurance is just a form of socialism. They pool all the money together and split it among those that they need it. If you are fairly healthy you will be paying someone else treatment. The diference is just a matter of preferences, of how do you prefer your money to be wasted. Wasted as in not going to medical treatment. You can choose to waste the money on endless government burocracy or waste the money on endless shareholder greed. To me wasted money is wasted money, i don´t care, i just thing that this amount has the potencial to be bigger because of greed than because of burocracy. I pay 4,70% of my income to have public medical insurance, that cover everything but stetic and non serious dental care. On top of that we get 90% discount on meds and unemployment insurance. The drawback is long waiting lists for non serious medical conditions. By the way, the medical insurance and the discount on meds is for me and for those of my close family that do not work Those that work has to pay as well. To have peace of mind, for not that much money i have private insurance as well, that cover those minor things that take a long time to be solved by public insurance. I bet all in all, i have bigger coverage for less money that what you guys pay over there. I am not against capitalism, but i am aware of its limitations, like resorting to socialist handouts when the market does not regulate properly. The wisest thing is to take the better parts of both instead of just choosing one for pride sake. Edited to add that the waiting list is for specialties like traumatology, endocrinology, etc. You can usually get an appointment with the family doctor the next day or even the same day if you call soon in the morning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bfilarsky 0 #14 November 17, 2008 gregpso.... have you ever even spent a significant amount of time in the USA? Or are you just ranting on about something you saw in a Michael Moore film? The whole idea that the insurance companies just deny deny deny claims all day long is bogus. You're grossly oversimplifying a highly complex problem. Besides, a month to get care? If I have a problem, I go in same day or the next day - not a whole month later. Whats that bible quote about taking the plank out of your own eye before you attempt to remove the splinter from your brothers??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #15 November 17, 2008 QuoteThe whole idea that the insurance companies just deny deny deny claims all day long is bogus. You're grossly oversimplifying a highly complex problem. Well, the insurance companies have computers that deny deny deny claims all day long. So the insurance people don't have to work as hard denying claims. Typically, a small office practice with two or three doctors have at least one person on staff full time to code the insurance claims. They are extensive, and if one little code on page 3 is not right, then insurance company will send it back to you, then you have to repeat the entire process, and between all the mailings, you've lost a week in the process. QuoteIt is estimated approximately 90% of the claims submitted to health insurance companies are rejected for some reason. Source: http://www.talkaboutcuringautism.org/health-insurance/health_ins_reimbursement_tips.htm So yes, insurance companies spend a great deal of time and money rejecting claims.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #16 November 17, 2008 Quote Quote It is estimated approximately 90% of the claims submitted to health insurance companies are rejected for some reason. Source: http://www.talkaboutcuringautism.org/health-insurance/health_ins_reimbursement_tips.htm So yes, insurance companies spend a great deal of time and money rejecting claims. Wow, dude. Way to take someone's overgeneralization (which they admitted was an estimate, without giving any indication of how it was estimated or by who) about a very specific sub-sector of patients (children with autism) and try to make it look like that was somehow a fact about the entire system. In fact, I can say that it is absolutely true that 100% of the insurance claims I've ever had have been paid in a timely fashion. That must mean that 100% of all claims are paid immediately, right? -- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #17 November 17, 2008 QuoteIn fact, I can say that it is absolutely true that 100% of the insurance claims I've ever had have been paid in a timely fashion. That must mean that 100% of all claims are paid immediately, right? Would you believe this site? http://www.ohioinsurance.gov/Newsroom/scripts/Release.asp?ReleaseID=770 QuoteThe examination of the industry found that 95 percent of all claims were paid or denied within 45 days of receipt from providers, and that 96 percent were paid or denied within 60 days of receipt. How about this one: http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/875824/health_care_administration_consumes_nearly_onethird_of_health_care_costs/index.html Quote Hospital executives reported that one in five claims submitted, on average, is delayed or denied and 96 percent of all claims must be submitted more than once. Or, maybe this one: http://www.healthcareitnews.com/story.cms?id=6726 Quote“Hospitals that do not submit claims electronically have to resubmit them 11 times or more on average, compared to three times or less for those that have adopted electronic methods,” she said.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #18 November 18, 2008 Quote They are extensive, and if one little code on page 3 is not right, then insurance company will send it back to you, then you have to repeat the entire process, and between all the mailings, you've lost a week in the process. A week? LOL - one of the bills from my accident in 2006 took 22 months before Stanford and Blue Shield were finally on the same page. The handling of my PT was not as bad, but made up for it in volume, as 72 visits translated into roughly 40 separate claims, 15 of which were handling different from the other 25. I don't think there was an willful attempts to deny coverage, but lots of individual humans handling the same process differently. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mpohl 1 #19 November 18, 2008 Of course, this one quote shows more than anything that you don't have the beginnings of a clue. So where do you get your $50/100 bladder test? Maybe at the Sarah Palin/ George W Treatment Center for the Mentally Insufficient? Gimme a break! Quote*** It would have cost more money, but I could get a bladder test done tomorrow if I wanted it. I'll take paying $50 or $100 for a test if it means that problems taking a leak are handled promptly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #20 November 18, 2008 QuoteOf course, this one quote shows more than anything that you don't have the beginnings of a clue. So where do you get your $50/100 bladder test? Maybe at the Sarah Palin/ George W Treatment Center for the Mentally Insufficient? Gimme a break! Quote*** It would have cost more money, but I could get a bladder test done tomorrow if I wanted it. I'll take paying $50 or $100 for a test if it means that problems taking a leak are handled promptly. Maybe a 10 or 20% co-pay. I've been to the doctor many times and payed $50-$80. Do you have something to say a bladder test co-pay would be different? How do you know what his insurance policy covers? Have you ever waited a month for a simple test here in the states? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #21 November 18, 2008 You'd be amazed at what can be done for cold hard cash. Imagine, if you will, being a businessman who can get $200 in a two or three months through insurance OR you can get $100 now. You'd be amazed at what cash can do. I've got a history of bargaining. Heck, my insurance doesn't even kick in until $3.5k in a year. It is amazing how much you can get for that. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #22 November 18, 2008 Sure. I GUESS it is a form of socialism. The difference is that I CHOOSE to participate. Even better I can shop for what I'd good for me. And my indurance I'd for catastropic loss, pretty much. So I pay some out of pocket for aspirin. Hey. I pay out of pocket for gas for my car. Gas aint free. nor do I buy insuarnce for it. Thus, I have incentive to conserve it. Different strokes for sifferent folks. You like it. Cool. I like this. Just as cool. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zee 0 #23 November 18, 2008 Universal healthcare? No thanks. Been there, done that. Healthcare in Sweden sucks bad. People die while waiting for care and that's no joke. Emergency medicine is actually good but, anything chronic and you might as well kill yourself. I'll pay for my insurance, thank you very much. Feel free to watch John Stossel compare the reality of the American Health Care system to Michael Moore's distorted view. The clips are only about 6 min each. Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 Part 5 Part 6 Action©Sports Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 198 #24 November 18, 2008 Excellent. Highly recommend everyone taking a look at this expose.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #25 November 18, 2008 QuoteHealthcare in Sweden sucks bad. People die while waiting for care and that's no joke. People die waiting for healthcare in this country, too. Many of them because they can't afford it. You're pointing out a small portion of the population, most of those elderly, who have what would be incurable diseases even 50 years ago, as a justification for not paying for any healthcare for anyone. Even people in countries with socialized medicine frequently have the option of paying for better healthcare, if they have a terminal illness, and if they can afford it. People in this country have to pay for all healthcare for colds, broken bones, and terminal illnesses. Most of us have been to the doctor several times in our lives, have paid tens of thousands (or hundreds of thouands if you're older and have a family) in health insurance premiums, and have had to spend a fortune on medication because of our "capitalistic medicine". It makes more sense to treat the majority of the population for curable illnesses (for free), than to force everyone to pay inordinate amounts of money (many of them will opt for not getting healthcare) to justify a small percentage of people that might survive a difficult surgery. BTW - in Sweden, the "sucky" healthcare lends itself to their citizens living three years longer (on average) than in the US, half the infant mortality of the US, 50% more doctors per person than the US and 10% more nurses, all at a cost of 60% per capita of what the US pays.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
