chuteless 1 #51 July 30, 2008 Well, as for Obama, etc,.....it says the most likely persons to be elected will either be John McCain ( God forbid) or Barack Obama. Does that satisfy your curiousity???? However, there is a tie to Obama and Harry truman, who never had a VP. I will not relate what the tie is, except Truman was responsible for dropping the only nukes on another country. I believe Obama will be the President who will receive payback in full. As for John McBush, in my opinion he is a wooden person without any charisma , and has no experience such as he claims. He is likea dead person who doesnt know enough to lie down. His only accreditation is he dropped bombs on innocent people during the Vietnam war...." big hero....and then he stayed at the Hanoi Hilton and rested for the duration of the war. His torture is likely an exaggeration such as is common in Americans....something like John Kerry and his cut finger getting him a Purple Heart. What a joke. McBush says he knows how to end wars....when did he ever do anything that brought about even so much as a partilal end to any conflict? More American government deception: FYI: Here is something you and all Americans should know....and do something about: George Bush and Cheney/Rumsfeld and gang, have arranged to mislead the American people, and no one seems to care. Did you know, that any American who is wounded in Iraq, and is shipped of to the American hospital in Germany, and DIES THERE, is NOT counted as one killed in the Iraq war.???? Thus Bush can keep the numbers given to the public much lower than they really are. Its more like 6000 Americans killed in the Iraq war...not the 1421 they tell you about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #52 July 30, 2008 Thanks for the Sexedbut my point was when do cells become life? Some believe life start at the moment of conception, some believe it is after the first trimester, some don’t care if the baby is near due. The point is for it to be a crime it is not based on your personal belief or mine. We have no way of determining when life begins. If you do consider any group of cells life then back to my original post we will go. I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 0 #53 July 30, 2008 Quote Thanks for the Sexedbut my point was when do cells become life? Some believe life start at the moment of conception, some believe it is after the first trimester, some don’t care if the baby is near due. The point is for it to be a crime it is not based on your personal belief or mine. We have no way of determining when life begins. If you do consider any group of cells life then back to my original post we will go. I can tell you the exact instance I believe life starts. It is when the sperm meets the egg and it begins to reproduce. What is the exact moment between the first and second, or second and third trimester that makes it, at the instant, a baby? If there is not one (and there is not) life starts at conception. Some people argue that if it can not survive outside of the mother, it is not a baby, but what 1 month old can live without any assistance (feeding and shelter) outside of the mother. What is the difference between killing a baby the day before it is due and throwing it in a dumpster 5 minutes after it is born? Life starts at conception. Ending that life on purpose is premeditated murder in my eyes. I understand that miscarrages (unintentional) happen and that is a shame, but so do things like Sudden Infant Death Syndrom and that is a shame to. Don't take a childs life on purpose. Your killing someone and there are loads of people waiting to adopt that life inside of you. edited to add Do you honestly believe a fetus that you can verify has Downs Syndrom is not alive? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #54 July 30, 2008 Quote My daughter Crystal would be thrilled beyond measure to have a Downs child. Christel, you again show that you don't know what you are talking about. A Downs child is the greatest blessing imaginable. I took 5 of my 6 grandchildren to a large restaurant yesterday, and bought them an all you could eat lunch. I had my hands full, and $58.00 later, I was so pleased to have done so. Lindsay sat beside me, and I kept her plate full. She only weighs 50 pounds, but eats like a horse. I don't know where she puts it. I doubt I will be alive in 10 more years, but there are others who will be glad to have her with them. I am glad you are not one of them. Me too. I'm not her father. Care to explain why a Down Syndrome child is "the greatest blessing imaginable"??? For you, for the child itself which never will have a normal, healthy, self-determined life, for his/her mother? Isn't a healthy child the "greatest blessing for a loving couple"??? Isn't every loving couple asking for that?? Ask your bible, Bill Cole. Or yourself. How on earth could one ask for a disabled child, Jesus!! dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #55 July 30, 2008 I think he's just trying to explain how lovable, sweet and innocent a child with DS can be!More importantly, I'm after more info from the Armageddon-ometer. Why didn't Obama appear much then chuteless, in comparison to John? Apparantly Obama could well be the Anti-Christ instead of the N. Korean dude you told us about earlier! 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
misaltas 0 #56 July 30, 2008 QuoteQuote Blows my mind that the abortion debate really doesn't start and end that simply. My body, my decision, your body, your decision. And men have no say in the decision as to if their child is "terminated" or not? Sounds fair. So much for "equal rights". A man's first and best decision in the matter is to choose carefully the person with whom he chooses to reproduce. I believe abortion when both lives aren't fatally threatened is wrong. I also believe that my beliefs are mine to apply to me. All I'm saying is that whether I think it's murder or not, as long as woman is gestating, the decision for how to complete the process is hers and no one else's to make. (ed.spelling)Ohne Liebe sind wir nichts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 200 #57 July 31, 2008 QuoteQuoteI think many people do see very young DS kids as "cute", and they really are. Problem is DS adults are not "cute". They'll either become a tremendous burden on the parents or a ward of the State. Fortunately for us there are people who have the compassion to handle the situation. I am not one of them. Tucked away all across this country are "homes" for these people staffed by compassionate individuals and funded by you and me. I've visited them and it's not pretty but they make the most of it. Where it really gets interesting is when Medicare gets involved and is tasked with "protecting" their rights. I could tell stories that would make you shake your head. As for the 10yo, sometimes I think it goes along the vein of getting a puppy. 10yo's think that way. With all due respect, I beg to differ. I happen to be one of those "compassionate individuals". I've worked with people with disabilities most of my career. Most people with DS are their own guardian, or under the guardianship of family members, not "wards of the state". Many live independently, have jobs, and fulfilling social lives. Those homes that you mention are not "tucked away" but integrated into the community, with caring neighbors. At least that is how things are in the agency I work for. Don't get me wrong, there are still a lot of things to be done and it is a constant uphill battle against looming budget cuts. But you know what? This is the area I'd rather see my tax dollars going. As for whether I would abort a fetus with DS or not, I don't know. I'm not a mother, and I never will be one. You have to consider that there are many serious medical concerns that go along with DS. One of them is Alzheimer'z Disease. In the past, people with DS simply didn't live long enough for this problem to surface, because they died at a young age of heart disease. But thanks to the advances in medical science, they live longer lives and we see the beginning stages of dementia in literally every single one of them as early as their late thirties but definitely in their late forties, early fifties. I guess my point is that each case is unique, and each parent should be able to make their own decision about keeping the pregnancy or not. Edited to add: A person becomes a "Ward of State" if the legal guardian deceases or withdraws without appointing somebody else to oversee the person's affairs. In my 17 year career I've never seen this happen. I don't know what state you live in but in Ohio there are plenty of corporate guardians. You're trying to tell me that every person in your care is his own guardian or has the parents as guardians? They must not be very profound. Where does the money come from to pay your salary?...to buy food and clothing and pay for the care of these people? If it isn't out of their pockets or their family's pocket, in my eyes they are a ward of the State. They might not technically fit your definition but they are cared for with tax dollars. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it is not the independent life you describe.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 200 #58 July 31, 2008 QuotePersonally, I think your comment that a 10 yr old Downs is akin to Puppy is downright stupid. You are an insulting person to even think such a thing. Lindsay, is very much more a human being than you are, judging from your statements. She will NEVER be put in any " home" because there is more than enough people who would stand up and take care of her. We even have a bank account set up for her needs in the future. Please keep your insulting remarks to yourself. Bill Cole You misunderstood my statement Bill. I beleive a 10yo child who wants to have a DS child is misunderstanding the amount of personal sacrifice involved and might even live to regret the decision, if it were possible to genetically engineer it. Much like a child who wants a puppy but grows tired of it after the novelty has worn off. I never referred to any DS child as a puppy. Your wishes to NEVER have her in a home are admirable, but may not be practical. Don't forget, I live with a 20yo DS child who is also MR. Already we see signs of agressive behavior. Rox works in a setting that has many older DS adults. They have issues that are better dealt with in an environment that provides 24 hour supervision. It's nice that you have a bank account...it'd have to be a huge amount of money to make certain she'd never be placed in a home.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #59 July 31, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote Blows my mind that the abortion debate really doesn't start and end that simply. My body, my decision, your body, your decision. And men have no say in the decision as to if their child is "terminated" or not? Sounds fair. So much for "equal rights". A man's first and best decision in the matter is to choose carefully the person with whom he chooses to reproduce. I believe abortion when both lives aren't fatally threatened is wrong. I also believe that my beliefs are mine to apply to me. All I'm saying is that whether I think it's murder or not, as long as woman is gestating, the decision for how to complete the process is hers and no one else's to make. (ed.spelling) I agree, men should have a say. As soon as we can figure out how to make the fetus grow outside a woman's uterus, then he should have a choice to keep the developing fetus himself if she decides to terminate her pregnancy.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #60 July 31, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote I agree, men should have a say. As soon as we can figure out how to make the fetus grow outside a woman's uterus, then he should have a choice to keep the developing fetus himself if she decides to terminate her pregnancy. YUP I agree totally The males role in the process is to support the female to the best of his ability...if the best he can do is say sorry, i can be part of it.... then quietly and gracefully piss-offYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hungarianchick 0 #61 July 31, 2008 QuoteI don't know what state you live in but in Ohio there are plenty of corporate guardians. You're trying to tell me that every person in your care is his own guardian or has the parents as guardians? They must not be very profound. Where does the money come from to pay your salary?...to buy food and clothing and pay for the care of these people? If it isn't out of their pockets or their family's pocket, in my eyes they are a ward of the State. They might not technically fit your definition but they are cared for with tax dollars. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it is not the independent life you describe. Let's not mix up legal terminology with what "you see with your eyes" The person's level of disability has nothing to do with the status of their guardianship. It may sound unbelievable to you, but even people with severe disabilities have parents and families who care for them. Some parents petition for guardianship for their adult child to have more controll over medical and financial decisions, some choose only medical guardianship. True, their care is funded by goverment /state through day programs, residential placement, staffing and transportation. And believe me, the families contribute generously. Here is my question to you though: DS can be detected during the early stages of the pregnancy when it can be still safely aborted. What do you suggest we do with people with autism, cerebral palsy, or PDD (that's short for Pervasive Developmental Delay)? "I love cooking with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnDeere 0 #62 July 31, 2008 You have questioned the most important issue to your party! Only a true liberal would believe they they should be able to control another persons life. How sad for one to even considure abortion. Unless you are raped/ chance of mother dieing while giving birth you should not even have the option.Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #63 July 31, 2008 Only a true liberal would believe they they should be able to control another persons life. ...as if a woman's right to choose what happens with regard to her own life isn't somehow involved in that statement. Umm....somebody needs to put down the crack pipe, but being somewhat of a liberal where those kinds of things are concerned, I'll leave that choice to the person smoking crack...lol. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnDeere 0 #64 July 31, 2008 Quote Only a true liberal would believe they they should be able to control another persons life. ...as if a woman's right to choose what happens with regard to her own life isn't somehow involved in that statement. Umm....somebody needs to put down the crack pipe, but being somewhat of a liberal where those kinds of things are concerned, I'll leave that choice to the person smoking crack...lol. linz Unless a womans life is in danger thedn no she should not have a choose after pregnisy. If she she want to close here legs beforehand that IS her choose. I will leave that choose to the hore that dosent know how to keep her legs closed but knows how to kill a childNothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydyvr 0 #65 July 31, 2008 Quote pregnisy I must say, you're doing the conservative cause a whole hell of a lot of good in here. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Conundrum 1 #66 July 31, 2008 Are you drunk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #67 July 31, 2008 Quote Are you drunk? I think his party only does that in private.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #68 July 31, 2008 Quote Quote Unless a womans life is in danger thedn no she should not have a choose after pregnisy. If she she want to close here legs beforehand that IS her choose. I will leave that choose to the hore that dosent know how to keep her legs closed but knows how to kill a child Way to win an argumentHow's your trailer home and mulletYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites birdlike 0 #69 July 31, 2008 QuoteJerking off is only half of what it takes to start a life. 1 month of pregnancy is only 1/9 of what it takes to start a life. QuoteMaybe you need some sex ed. A woman expelling an egg every month is not killing a life. As soon as that sperm hits that egg and it starts replicating, that is a HUMAN life. I kill mosquitos and "fungus" but I don't kill humans at any stage in their development. The thing is, I kind of agree with that, in a metaphysical, ooo-WEEEE-eee-ooooo sense. Life does appear to me to begin at conception. There is something we may not quite understand about what exactly makes it "life," but there is a different thing going on at the very moment when the sperm and egg meet. But to say that it is sanctified is a matter for any given society to DEFINE. We realize all over the place that not all ending of life is equivalent. We end lives in war when we are defending our way of life; we end lives to save lives (as when police kill a hostage-taker) and we don't say, "OH, you shouldn't! We even end lives compassionately when people are sick and dying. They have life left, and without euthanasia, they'd live longer than we let them. So if we grant that some killing may be performed, why not allow that when a human life is still not yet a thinking, feeling, reasoning entity (as when it is a few weeks into its gestation) that it's permissible to end it? It's not like we're talking about ending a life that is looking at you, knowing what you are about to do, pleading with you, "No, please, don't do this!" In the words of the immortal Gob Bluth, "COME on!!"Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airdvr 200 #70 July 31, 2008 QuoteLet's not mix up legal terminology with what "you see with your eyes" The person's level of disability has nothing to do with the status of their guardianship. It may sound unbelievable to you, but even people with severe disabilities have parents and families who care for them. Some parents petition for guardianship for their adult child to have more controll over medical and financial decisions, some choose only medical guardianship. True, their care is funded by goverment /state through day programs, residential placement, staffing and transportation. And believe me, the families contribute generously. Here is my question to you though: DS can be detected during the early stages of the pregnancy when it can be still safely aborted. What do you suggest we do with people with autism, cerebral palsy, or PDD (that's short for Pervasive Developmental Delay)? I didn't participate in the poll. I merely pointed out the huge amount of commitment and compassion required to raise a child with DS and that many, due to the comlexity of medical problems will be MR. I also stated that I would not want the responsibilty. Fortunately I wasn't faced with that decision with my 2 kids. I cringe when I see people oohing and aahing over little kids with DS. They are clueless.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pirana 0 #71 July 31, 2008 My standard for abortion wouldn't change because of a disease. If brain wave activity reaches the level indicating a concious human being - then abortion is out. It's strictly my personal opinion and I'm not advocating it as something everyone should follow, but killing a concious and aware human, even in the womb - is just right out for me. Prior to said speculated level of brain wave action, a woman should get to decide, regardless of her reasons or what others may think because of their personal moral opinion." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites klingeme 0 #72 July 31, 2008 QuoteQuoteJerking off is only half of what it takes to start a life. 1 month of pregnancy is only 1/9 of what it takes to start a life. QuoteMaybe you need some sex ed. A woman expelling an egg every month is not killing a life. As soon as that sperm hits that egg and it starts replicating, that is a HUMAN life. I kill mosquitos and "fungus" but I don't kill humans at any stage in their development. The thing is, I kind of agree with that, in a metaphysical, ooo-WEEEE-eee-ooooo sense. Life does appear to me to begin at conception. There is something we may not quite understand about what exactly makes it "life," but there is a different thing going on at the very moment when the sperm and egg meet. But to say that it is sanctified is a matter for any given society to DEFINE. We realize all over the place that not all ending of life is equivalent. We end lives in war when we are defending our way of life; we end lives to save lives (as when police kill a hostage-taker) and we don't say, "OH, you shouldn't! We even end lives compassionately when people are sick and dying. They have life left, and without euthanasia, they'd live longer than we let them. So if we grant that some killing may be performed, why not allow that when a human life is still not yet a thinking, feeling, reasoning entity (as when it is a few weeks into its gestation) that it's permissible to end it? It's not like we're talking about ending a life that is looking at you, knowing what you are about to do, pleading with you, "No, please, don't do this!" In the words of the immortal Gob Bluth, "COME on!!" Until someone can come up with another "Instant" that life begins, my view will not change. editied to add The Soldier and the Policeman made a concious choice. The loved ones of the terminally ill made a choice that was "hopefully" influenced but the choice of the terminally ill (a living will). The baby never got to make a choice. I personally was born with Hydrocephalis (water on the brain) and I'm glad my parents made the right "choice". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuteless 1 #73 July 31, 2008 My daughter's last name is COLE, not Mengele. If you havent experienced a Downs child, then I suggest you don't give an invalid theory as to what constitutes a blessing. There is more genuine LOVE in my granddaughter that any other of your "normal" humans anywhere. Before my daughter Donna had the Downs baby, I wouldnt have really given a second glance to a Downs child. Now every time I see one I was to give it a big hug. They are truly a blessing....and you obviously do not understand blessings from God. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuteless 1 #74 July 31, 2008 As long as her Aunt , and several others are alive, she will never be placed in a home. I do not understand your comment abou a 10 yr old wanting a Downs child. that just doesnt make sense. I just saw my Lindsay, and she was so full of love, its something you never see in "normal " people. I hate to walk away from her to do other things. I wish she was mine to raise, but being the grandfather, is the best I can hope for. My daughter Crystal also wishes that Lindsay belonged to her. I have 5 other grandchildern, but Lindsay is so special, I cannot even find the words to tell you. There are different levels of Downs, and I am sure you know that. Some do have extra requirements. I am not arfguing that point, but for my Lindsay, I can assure you, she will never be placed in any home for Downs people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuteless 1 #75 July 31, 2008 I agree with you. I do not think anyone should be allowed to abort a child...anytime....anywhere....for any reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 3 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
hungarianchick 0 #61 July 31, 2008 QuoteI don't know what state you live in but in Ohio there are plenty of corporate guardians. You're trying to tell me that every person in your care is his own guardian or has the parents as guardians? They must not be very profound. Where does the money come from to pay your salary?...to buy food and clothing and pay for the care of these people? If it isn't out of their pockets or their family's pocket, in my eyes they are a ward of the State. They might not technically fit your definition but they are cared for with tax dollars. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it is not the independent life you describe. Let's not mix up legal terminology with what "you see with your eyes" The person's level of disability has nothing to do with the status of their guardianship. It may sound unbelievable to you, but even people with severe disabilities have parents and families who care for them. Some parents petition for guardianship for their adult child to have more controll over medical and financial decisions, some choose only medical guardianship. True, their care is funded by goverment /state through day programs, residential placement, staffing and transportation. And believe me, the families contribute generously. Here is my question to you though: DS can be detected during the early stages of the pregnancy when it can be still safely aborted. What do you suggest we do with people with autism, cerebral palsy, or PDD (that's short for Pervasive Developmental Delay)? "I love cooking with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #62 July 31, 2008 You have questioned the most important issue to your party! Only a true liberal would believe they they should be able to control another persons life. How sad for one to even considure abortion. Unless you are raped/ chance of mother dieing while giving birth you should not even have the option.Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #63 July 31, 2008 Only a true liberal would believe they they should be able to control another persons life. ...as if a woman's right to choose what happens with regard to her own life isn't somehow involved in that statement. Umm....somebody needs to put down the crack pipe, but being somewhat of a liberal where those kinds of things are concerned, I'll leave that choice to the person smoking crack...lol. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #64 July 31, 2008 Quote Only a true liberal would believe they they should be able to control another persons life. ...as if a woman's right to choose what happens with regard to her own life isn't somehow involved in that statement. Umm....somebody needs to put down the crack pipe, but being somewhat of a liberal where those kinds of things are concerned, I'll leave that choice to the person smoking crack...lol. linz Unless a womans life is in danger thedn no she should not have a choose after pregnisy. If she she want to close here legs beforehand that IS her choose. I will leave that choose to the hore that dosent know how to keep her legs closed but knows how to kill a childNothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #65 July 31, 2008 Quote pregnisy I must say, you're doing the conservative cause a whole hell of a lot of good in here. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #67 July 31, 2008 Quote Are you drunk? I think his party only does that in private.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #68 July 31, 2008 Quote Quote Unless a womans life is in danger thedn no she should not have a choose after pregnisy. If she she want to close here legs beforehand that IS her choose. I will leave that choose to the hore that dosent know how to keep her legs closed but knows how to kill a child Way to win an argumentHow's your trailer home and mulletYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #69 July 31, 2008 QuoteJerking off is only half of what it takes to start a life. 1 month of pregnancy is only 1/9 of what it takes to start a life. QuoteMaybe you need some sex ed. A woman expelling an egg every month is not killing a life. As soon as that sperm hits that egg and it starts replicating, that is a HUMAN life. I kill mosquitos and "fungus" but I don't kill humans at any stage in their development. The thing is, I kind of agree with that, in a metaphysical, ooo-WEEEE-eee-ooooo sense. Life does appear to me to begin at conception. There is something we may not quite understand about what exactly makes it "life," but there is a different thing going on at the very moment when the sperm and egg meet. But to say that it is sanctified is a matter for any given society to DEFINE. We realize all over the place that not all ending of life is equivalent. We end lives in war when we are defending our way of life; we end lives to save lives (as when police kill a hostage-taker) and we don't say, "OH, you shouldn't! We even end lives compassionately when people are sick and dying. They have life left, and without euthanasia, they'd live longer than we let them. So if we grant that some killing may be performed, why not allow that when a human life is still not yet a thinking, feeling, reasoning entity (as when it is a few weeks into its gestation) that it's permissible to end it? It's not like we're talking about ending a life that is looking at you, knowing what you are about to do, pleading with you, "No, please, don't do this!" In the words of the immortal Gob Bluth, "COME on!!"Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 200 #70 July 31, 2008 QuoteLet's not mix up legal terminology with what "you see with your eyes" The person's level of disability has nothing to do with the status of their guardianship. It may sound unbelievable to you, but even people with severe disabilities have parents and families who care for them. Some parents petition for guardianship for their adult child to have more controll over medical and financial decisions, some choose only medical guardianship. True, their care is funded by goverment /state through day programs, residential placement, staffing and transportation. And believe me, the families contribute generously. Here is my question to you though: DS can be detected during the early stages of the pregnancy when it can be still safely aborted. What do you suggest we do with people with autism, cerebral palsy, or PDD (that's short for Pervasive Developmental Delay)? I didn't participate in the poll. I merely pointed out the huge amount of commitment and compassion required to raise a child with DS and that many, due to the comlexity of medical problems will be MR. I also stated that I would not want the responsibilty. Fortunately I wasn't faced with that decision with my 2 kids. I cringe when I see people oohing and aahing over little kids with DS. They are clueless.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #71 July 31, 2008 My standard for abortion wouldn't change because of a disease. If brain wave activity reaches the level indicating a concious human being - then abortion is out. It's strictly my personal opinion and I'm not advocating it as something everyone should follow, but killing a concious and aware human, even in the womb - is just right out for me. Prior to said speculated level of brain wave action, a woman should get to decide, regardless of her reasons or what others may think because of their personal moral opinion." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 0 #72 July 31, 2008 QuoteQuoteJerking off is only half of what it takes to start a life. 1 month of pregnancy is only 1/9 of what it takes to start a life. QuoteMaybe you need some sex ed. A woman expelling an egg every month is not killing a life. As soon as that sperm hits that egg and it starts replicating, that is a HUMAN life. I kill mosquitos and "fungus" but I don't kill humans at any stage in their development. The thing is, I kind of agree with that, in a metaphysical, ooo-WEEEE-eee-ooooo sense. Life does appear to me to begin at conception. There is something we may not quite understand about what exactly makes it "life," but there is a different thing going on at the very moment when the sperm and egg meet. But to say that it is sanctified is a matter for any given society to DEFINE. We realize all over the place that not all ending of life is equivalent. We end lives in war when we are defending our way of life; we end lives to save lives (as when police kill a hostage-taker) and we don't say, "OH, you shouldn't! We even end lives compassionately when people are sick and dying. They have life left, and without euthanasia, they'd live longer than we let them. So if we grant that some killing may be performed, why not allow that when a human life is still not yet a thinking, feeling, reasoning entity (as when it is a few weeks into its gestation) that it's permissible to end it? It's not like we're talking about ending a life that is looking at you, knowing what you are about to do, pleading with you, "No, please, don't do this!" In the words of the immortal Gob Bluth, "COME on!!" Until someone can come up with another "Instant" that life begins, my view will not change. editied to add The Soldier and the Policeman made a concious choice. The loved ones of the terminally ill made a choice that was "hopefully" influenced but the choice of the terminally ill (a living will). The baby never got to make a choice. I personally was born with Hydrocephalis (water on the brain) and I'm glad my parents made the right "choice". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #73 July 31, 2008 My daughter's last name is COLE, not Mengele. If you havent experienced a Downs child, then I suggest you don't give an invalid theory as to what constitutes a blessing. There is more genuine LOVE in my granddaughter that any other of your "normal" humans anywhere. Before my daughter Donna had the Downs baby, I wouldnt have really given a second glance to a Downs child. Now every time I see one I was to give it a big hug. They are truly a blessing....and you obviously do not understand blessings from God. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #74 July 31, 2008 As long as her Aunt , and several others are alive, she will never be placed in a home. I do not understand your comment abou a 10 yr old wanting a Downs child. that just doesnt make sense. I just saw my Lindsay, and she was so full of love, its something you never see in "normal " people. I hate to walk away from her to do other things. I wish she was mine to raise, but being the grandfather, is the best I can hope for. My daughter Crystal also wishes that Lindsay belonged to her. I have 5 other grandchildern, but Lindsay is so special, I cannot even find the words to tell you. There are different levels of Downs, and I am sure you know that. Some do have extra requirements. I am not arfguing that point, but for my Lindsay, I can assure you, she will never be placed in any home for Downs people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #75 July 31, 2008 I agree with you. I do not think anyone should be allowed to abort a child...anytime....anywhere....for any reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
