Compulsory Attendance Laws

[Airman1270 0]

Everyone with an ounce of credibility agrees that the public school system is either 1) a dismal failure, or 2) is quite successful if its intention is to create generations of semi-literate secular socialists who are incapable of critical thinking.

A thorough study on the topic was released 25 years ago. Candidates for public office routinely offer their proposed solutions, indicating that they ackowledge the problem. (Few people publicly declare that the system is operating at peak performance and doesn't need any modification.)

Given the blatant problems with public education, why not simply repeal compulsory attendance laws and give parents the right to decide whether to send their children into these failed institutions? While there may have been a time where mandatory attendance could arguably result in an overall positive influence on society as a whole, there is little evidence that this is currently the case.

Parental choice would require the schools to provide a product that people would want to pay for. This would result in the schools fixing themselves, as they seek to attract customers.

If you're against freedom & choice in this area, why?

What is going on in the schools that is so important that parents should risk being shot by police if they refuse to comply?

Cheers,
Jon S.

[beowulf 1]

While I think choice is a great thing and would be all for it. I think not making school mandatory would result in fewer children ever seeing the inside of any school and not getting any education at all. I have seen this accomplished by people saying they are "home schooling" their children and then never actually following through with the home schooling.

[billvon 2,400]

>1) a dismal failure, or 2) is quite successful if its intention is to create
>generations of semi-literate secular socialists who are incapable of critical
>thinking.

As I know some brilliant capitalists who went through the public school system, your analysis is demonstrably wrong.

>why not simply repeal compulsory attendance laws and give parents the
>right to decide whether to send their children into these failed institutions?

Because it would be the end of the United States of America within a generation. Ignorance would breed ignorance, and ignorance, given a free hand, will win in the end. We would end up a nation of illiterate fools, voting for candidates we do not understand and ballot measures we cannot read, choosing our government based solely on who will give us more money to sit at home and watch TV.

You think education is expensive? Try ignorance.

>What is going on in the schools that is so important that parents
>should risk being shot by police if they refuse to comply?

Education.

[beowulf 1]

I would also like to add that while I don't think that the US school system is perfect, the real problem with education is mostly with the parents rather then the school system. If the children don't have a stable and loving home environment with parents that care about their education level then they are much more likely to not do well in school no matter how good the school is. A good education starts with the parents.

[tmaricle55 0]

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I would also like to add that while I don't think that the US school system is perfect, the real problem with education is mostly with the parents rather then the school system. If the children don't have a stable and loving home environment with parents that care about their education level then they are much more likely to not do well in school no matter how good the school is. A good education starts with the parents.

I was talking with a friend of mine yesterday about this very same thing. It is up to the teacher to not only educate them but to raise them as well.

Muff Brother # 3883, SCR # 14796 ICD # 1 - Pres.
Yeah, I noticed and I think it's funny!

[AWL71 0]

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I would also like to add that while I don't think that the US school system is perfect, the real problem with education is mostly with the parents rather then the school system. If the children don't have a stable and loving home environment with parents that care about their education level then they are much more likely to not do well in school no matter how good the school is. A good education starts with the parents.

The above statement is very true. It is up to the parents to complement the work the teachers do. Most teachers will tell you that kids that have healthy home lifes do well in school.

It is also true that some areas have good schools. The school system my kids are in is a very good one but the next county over the schools are terrible.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[billvon 2,400]

>the real problem with education is mostly with the parents rather then the school system.

An astute observation. Most of the "problem kids" I've known have had most of their problems come from their home life, not from what happened in school.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

I think its a mistake to look at the "average" student as the most appropriate measure of of what the public school system is capable of doing. My kids went through the public schools here, and as a university professor I deal daily with "products" of the school system. If kids are willing to make an effort and take advantage of the people and resources put in front of them, they can come out of high school very well prepared for anything they want to do. There are many fantastic, extremely dedicated teachers in every public school, as well as many so-so or even miserable teachers. What makes the difference in outcome is the family and social environment the kid experiences at home. Most people are naturally lazy and will take the path of least resistance if allowed to meander without guidance. If you grow up in a single-wide, achieving a double-wide lifestyle may be as much success as you can visualize. Often parents (or commonly parent) buy into the delusion that their kid will end up in the NBA/NFL/whatever and make 20 million dollars a year to chuck a ball around, so time on the basketball court is given priority over time spent on homework. If parents don't make the effort to push their kids to take the tougher classes that really prepare them for life, if they can't be bothered to make sure their kids are keeping up with their homework, who's to blame when Johnny can't add and subtract? If the kid never sees Mom or Dad pick up a book, but they can discuss all the American Idol contestants as if it somehow mattered, then why is it the teacher's fault that the kid can't read anything more involved than a comic book? Look at the high achievers, the best students, to see what the system can produce when everybody does their part.

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[sandi 0]

As a doctoral student, one of my areas of study is parenting in relation to academic achievement. Needless to say, I’ve spent countless hours reading research on parenting and I can’t stress enough how important parents are. I was just sitting at my desk preparing for a conference presentation on parenting and the development of reading skills when I took a break and saw this thread. I talk to parents all the time who have the attitude that once the kids start school their job is done (especially once children become adolescents). Parents seem to think that they no longer have influence in their children’s lives. However, even in adolescence parents are still the biggest influences in kids’ decision making. It’s the kids who don’t have involved and supportive parents who end up having to rely too much on peers.

Back to education, children whose parents are more involved in their education have better academic achievement and more positive feelings about school, are less likely to drop out or engage in delinquent behavior, and achieve higher levels of educational attainment.

Unfortunately, if education were not mandatory there would be a lot of children in this country who never enter a classroom. If you think illiteracy and lack of critical thinking skills are a problem now, just imagine how much bigger the problem could get.

I agree there are problems with the current educational system. I think it needs a complete overhaul. I don’t have the answers as to the best way to fix it. But, I know that not requiring a minimum of education in this country is not the answer to our problems.

BTW, I went to public school and even with my dismal K-12 education I still managed to get a bachelor’s degree from Northwestern University. In a couple years I’ll even have a PhD.

And my last comment, to all parents everywhere. The most important thing you can give your children is your TIME. No it’s not designer clothes and expensive vacations. Your involvement in their life is the best thing you can do for them.

[Royd 0]

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While I think choice is a great thing and would be all for it. I think not making school mandatory would result in fewer children ever seeing the inside of any school and not getting any education at all. I have seen this accomplished by people saying they are "home schooling" their children and then never actually following through with the home schooling.

I've known quite a few home schoolers, and it is my understanding that at the end of the year, they are still answerable to state requirements.

[beowulf 1]

That depends on which state they are in. Some states do no require anything at all.

[kelpdiver 2]

college is the option that one can choose to pay for. Or not.

But the point of high school is to give children the minimal skills to contribute to society. The questions that should be asked are
1) should they be allowed to drop out short of a diploma or passed GED test?
2) are the schools actually meeting an acceptable standard? California has been implementing a controversial exit exam requirement to get the diploma. I think it's a step forward.

[Gawain 0]

I don't agree 100% with your statements, but I support school vouchers. If a school is failing, and you can't/won't homeschool, then your child must go to school...pick one.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Given the blatant problems with public education, why not simply repeal compulsory attendance laws and give parents the right to decide whether to send their children into these failed institutions?

Because children whose parents chose "none of the above" will still be allowed to vote for candidates supporting expensive government programs (like housing allowances when they can't afford market rate apartments) even though they're less able to contribute to the tax base supporting those programs than today's median tax payer. We'll spend even more on the ones who remove themselves from the voter pool through criminal acts (in California, the number is over $40,000 per adult inmate per year).

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Parental choice would require the schools to provide a product that people would want to pay for. This would result in the schools fixing themselves, as they seek to attract customers.

The problem here is that schools already reflect the desires of their local constituencies for better and worse.

I went to a public school in a yuppie breeding ground where 95% of the 500 member senior class went to college and I graduated with 27 out of the 30 credit hours I needed for sophmore standing in engineering school.

Other schools in the same district and property tax base but with different demographics were having problems offering advanced placement courses because the parents thought it was "unfair" to their "average" children.

In places where the parents value education the public schools aren't a problem and evidence suggests the converse is also true.

Vouchers may be a help for the parents who care but are stuck in bad neighborhoods but allowing bad parents to choose complete ignorance over poor schools is even worse than the status quo in which we've arguably entered a post-literate age where people have three day memories of sound bites.

[jcd11235 0]

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Given the blatant problems with public education, why not simply repeal compulsory attendance laws and give parents the right to decide whether to send their children into these failed institutions?

School attendance is compulsory, not public school attendance. Parents can send their kids to public schools, private schools, or homeschool them.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[thirdworld19 0]

The world needs ditch diggers too. (Caddyshack for you youngins)


I would imagine (no figures to back this up, just anecdotal evidence) that a large number of parents would still send their kids to school - not for the education, but for the free babysitting service they see it as. That, and many underprivileged children have their only meals at school. Why would a parent or parents give that up.

[Airman1270 0]

...Unfortunately, if education were not mandatory there would be a lot of children in this country who never enter a classroom. If you think illiteracy and lack of critical thinking skills are a problem now, just imagine how much bigger the problem could get....
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


Thanks everyone.

The problem is that 1) The schools are pushing a curriculum of political ideology, rather than truly educating people, and 2) School officials see themselves as state officials who have the right to contradict parental authority.

Notice what is not being taught. Kids are not learning economics. They are not learning a balanced understanding of American history. They are not being taught to appreciate the genius of the Founders and the system they created. They are not being taught to appreciate the good things about this country. Instead they are being taught to disregard the Founder's because they "owned slaves."

I was in my 40's before I ever knew that some of these guys owned slaves. Today this is emphasized.
Why? It's completely irrelevant. Why is so much classroom time being wasted on Black history? When was the last time anyone's life was ever affected by how much they knew about Harriet Tubman and the underground railroad?

Not that there's anything wrong with knowing this stuff, but the current system is using this information as a tool to stir up racial animosity. Young black people are growing up in a colorblind world, only to be indoctrinated into believing that whitey hates them. They then build up hostility to whitey, who is surprised and confused to find out that he's being accused of harboring attitudes he never had.

Why is so much classroom time being wasted on origin-of-life discussions? And why is the "teaching" so one-sided? It is possible to teach students the basic theories behind both sides of the debate in a single afternoon, then move on to more important matters while leaving it up to the students to decide whether to persue the matter on their own. It's not the school's role to pressure students into believing one side or the other. (If you want a laugh, watch the "open-minded," "logical," "free-thinkers" among us twist themselves into a pretzel as they try to explain why their for censorship and opposed to exposing kids to both sides of this subject.)

Look at what's happening on college campuses. Recent high school graduates have been indoctrinated into shouting down conservative speakers. They have never been taught how to do critical thinking. Instead, they react emotionally to stereotypes. In Atlanta, a bunch of college students protested the selection of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas as commencement speaker. Why? Because many years ago he had been accused of making rude comments to a co-worker. Never mind that the charges were unsubstantiated and politically motivated. These ignorant jerks have gone through high school and college, yet after spending all this time and money they are incapable of using a little common sense and appreciating the unique perspective a member of the Court might have to offer.

I could go on for hours. Again, what is happening in the schools that is so important that parents should risk being shot by police if they decide not to participate? If kids don't get an "education," so what? They can always learn what they need to know later in life. But the current system appears to exist for the express purpose of creating secular socialists whoi will offer knee-jerk votes for Democrats.

And frankly, I'm tired of hearing all this crap about how incompetent parents are. Sure there are some bad apples, but parents are facing an uphill battle. If attendance were not mandatory the schools would be forced to offer educational priorities that parents would want to pay for. Most people would want their kids educated, and would shop around for the schools that best suit their needs. So what if young graduates enter adult life without knowing much about slavery? At least they'd be able to do basic math without a calculator, and could write a cohesive paragraph explaining an intellectual idea.

Cheers,
Jon S.

[jcd11235 0]

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Notice what is not being taught. Kids are not learning economics.

Sure they are. They're just being taught the simplified version that focuses primarily on supply and demand. There are many other considerations in the real world, but they have to start somewhere.

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They are not learning a balanced understanding of American history. They are not being taught to appreciate the genius of the Founders and the system they created. They are not being taught to appreciate the good things about this country. Instead they are being taught to disregard the Founder's because they "owned slaves."

That sound like they are getting a balanced understanding of American history, and not just the good stuff.

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I was in my 40's before I ever knew that some of these guys owned slaves. Today this is emphasized.

Hence, kids today are getting a more balanced view of American history.

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Why? It's completely irrelevant.

Because those who do not learn from their history are doomed to repeat it.

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Why is so much classroom time being wasted on Black history?

Because it's a major part of American history. Again, it makes up a balanced understanding of their country's history.

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When was the last time anyone's life was ever affected by how much they knew about Harriet Tubman and the underground railroad?

Do you not recognize the value of taking risks in order to do the right thing? Many would consider that a valuable lesson.

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Not that there's anything wrong with knowing this stuff, but the current system is using this information as a tool to stir up racial animosity.

No, they incorporate it into the lessons to help create a colorblind curriculum.

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Young black people are growing up in a colorblind world, only to be indoctrinated into believing that whitey hates them.

I haven't seen this colorblind world you're referring to. We're making progress, but we aren't there yet.

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They then build up hostility to whitey, who is surprised and confused to find out that he's being accused of harboring attitudes he never had.

Some have never harbored racist feelings, others harbor very strong racist feelings.

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Why is so much classroom time being wasted on origin-of-life discussions?

Biology is an important subject, and it's a fundamental question in Biology.

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And why is the "teaching" so one-sided? It is possible to teach students the basic theories behind both sides of the debate in a single afternoon, then move on to more important matters while leaving it up to the students to decide whether to persue the matter on their own.

There is only one credible scientific theory regarding the origin of (human) life, evolution. Intelligent design is not science; it is religion. As such, it does not belong in a science class.

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It's not the school's role to pressure students into believing one side or the other. (If you want a laugh, watch the "open-minded," "logical," "free-thinkers" among us twist themselves into a pretzel as they try to explain why their for censorship and opposed to exposing kids to both sides of this subject.)

If Intelligent Design advocates could form their views into the form of a testable scientific hypothesis, then it could be examined by science. Until then, it is plainly religion, and based upon faith.

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Look at what's happening on college campuses. Recent high school graduates have been indoctrinated into shouting down conservative speakers.

My experience on college campuses does not reflect that.

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They have never been taught how to do critical thinking.

Nor have many adults. For example, consider how many people (of all ages) who do not understand the criteria required for something to be considered science, and consider Intelligent Design to be a competing theory to evolution. Or, consider the number of people who ignore the scientific research, and consider anthropogenic global warming to be a hoax. Similarly, there are people who believe we never landed on the moon.

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Instead, they react emotionally to stereotypes. In Atlanta, a bunch of college students protested the selection of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas as commencement speaker. Why? Because many years ago he had been accused of making rude comments to a co-worker.

They protested against someone accused of sexual harassment? How un-American. Would you have preferred their displeasure were manifested with a suicide vest?

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Never mind that the charges were unsubstantiated and politically motivated.

Unsubstantiated? No, the accusations were substantiated. Would there have been enough evidence to convict, had Justice Thomas faced charges and gone to trial over the allegations? Maybe not.

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These ignorant jerks have gone through high school and college, yet after spending all this time and money they are incapable of using a little common sense and appreciating the unique perspective a member of the Court might have to offer.

Perhaps they were displeased at the discredit an alleged perpetrator of workplace sexual harassment brings to the bench. A lot of people were displeased about Clinton receiving an extramarital blow job, also.

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I could go on for hours. Again, what is happening in the schools that is so important that parents should risk being shot by police if they decide not to participate?

If that were the case, it would be an issue with abuse of police authority, not schools.

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If kids don't get an "education," so what? They can always learn what they need to know later in life.

That's completely untrue. If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

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But the current system appears to exist for the express purpose of creating secular socialists whoi will offer knee-jerk votes for Democrats.

The students should receive a secular education from the public schools. Interestingly, I see as many, if not more, young Republicans on campus as young Democrats, so your belief that students are indoctrinated as socialists seems unfounded.

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If attendance were not mandatory the schools would be forced to offer educational priorities that parents would want to pay for.

Parents are already free to seek out and pay for private or religious schools for their kids.

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Most people would want their kids educated, and would shop around for the schools that best suit their needs.

They are free to do just that.

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So what if young graduates enter adult life without knowing much about slavery?

They would miss out on important lessons our nation's history has to offer, and have far less understanding of racial issues today, both domestically and internationally.

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At least they'd be able to do basic math without a calculator …

I'm pretty good at maths. I can use a calculator, a pencil or paper, or even do some basic calculus in my head. One thing I have learned is that the important thing about learning maths is learning the concepts. Those concepts can be learned with pencil and paper or with a calculator equally well. I'm a firm believer that every American student should have a basic understanding of single variable integral calculus by the time they graduate from high school. (To me, calculus and trigonometry are basic maths that open up a whole new world of dynamic critical thought.)

Personally, I think the need to be able to integrate by parts is far less important than the need to understand that integration is the proper tool. Honestly, it's been a few years since I have been more likely to have a pencil and paper closer at hand than a calculator or computer with appropriate software. Sure, nearly everything I can do with a calculator I can do without a calculator, but it is far more prone to errors and takes far more time, neither of which is a good thing in the real world.

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… and could write a cohesive paragraph explaining an intellectual idea.

I certainly agree that writing skills seem to have declined since I was a kid. Sometimes, it is little more than annoying, since the intended idea is still communicated. Other times, however, the idea is lost in the misspelled words, typos and improper grammar. What I find to be the worst part is that people seem to not be bothered or embarrassed by their semi-illiteracy. I would love to see this addressed by parents and educators for younger and future generations.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jumpin_Jan 1]

>>If kids don't get an "education," so what? They can always learn what they need to know later in life.

>That's completely untrue. If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

I take exception to your use of 'absolutes'.
Talk about poor communication skillz, sheesh.

I am the exception that proves you wrong.
I quit school at 15. (I had all D's & F's)
I lied about my age and worked in a die-casting plant.
When my class graduated HS I was working doing component level computer repair.
In my late 30's I maintained a 4.0 GPA.

I agree with the idea of vouchers.
Why should people have to support a poor school and pay additional monies for a decent education elsewhere.
The fastest way to improve the skoolz is to remove the tenure system and replace it with a merit system. IMneverHO

As long as the teachers unions are self preserving monopolys things have little hope of changing.

I think the child labor laws should be relaxed too.
Then those who are just taking up space in the schools can become productive members of society if they choose.

What is your solution to why HS graduates have a high incedence of illiteracy?


PULL!
jumpin_Jan

"Dangerous toys are fun but ya could get hurt" -- Vash The Stampede

[Nightingale 0]

I would really like our schools to accept that not everybody is cut out for college or wants to go to college straight out of high school. It would be wonderful to see high schools provide training in auto shop, office skills, and other fields that would allow students to leave high school with some marketable skills beyond just reading and writing.

[Lindsey 0]

Don't y'all have Shop class out there?

Someone mentioned that parents would continue sending their children to school because of the free babysitting service it provides. Maybe that's true. If it's the only reason some parents send their children to school, then the kids are definitely getting more at school than at home. Perhaps it's at MY child's expense in some ways, but I'm also quite sure that my child is gaining something from the experience too.

Another person mentioned relaxing child labor laws. What a combination. I think we've been there before. Kids might be cheaper labor than Mexicans. And if a parent didn't have to lift a finger for those young'uns to bring home a little extra crack money....HECK! That'd be the way to go.

Personally, I think we (and a whole BUNCH of kids) are better off making sure that they all have a chance at some kind of education and some kind of future. Not all parents give enough of a shit to make good decisions for their children.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Squeak 17]

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I would really like our schools to accept that not everybody is cut out for college or wants to go to college straight out of high school. It would be wonderful to see high schools provide training in auto shop, office skills, and other fields that would allow students to leave high school with some marketable skills beyond just reading and writing.

Thats exactly what ours chools do we call it V.E.T. (Vocational Education & Training)

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[jumpin_Jan 1]

I didn't say eliminate child labor laws, I said relax them.

When I was 14 I worked bailing hay over the summer.
I didn't loose too many limbs and I got good exercise.
I had friends that washed dishes year round PART TIME.


PULL!
jumpin_Jan

"Dangerous toys are fun but ya could get hurt" -- Vash The Stampede

[Lindsey 0]

My son's eleven, and he's a great little farm hand. He loves driving the bush hog. He's working in the garden tomorrow afternoon. Does a lot of fence-fixin' and has had a hand in calf-birthing.

I agree that some hard work is good for kids, as long as it's not at the expense of education. If kids don't make the most of the opportunity, that's one thing. But to not have the opportunity at all is quite another. An 11 y/o or a 14 y/o are not mature enough to make decisions about whether they should be in school or not, imho.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[jcd11235 0]

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I am the exception that proves you wrong.

You're right. I should have used the word generally instead of completely. At any rate, education is generally very important for kids and adolescents.

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What is your solution to why HS graduates have a high incedence of illiteracy?

Was your example intentional or just timely? Would you like a proposed solution, or a hypothesis to explain why writing skills are often lacking?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!