Fuck you American healthcare system

[ExAFO 0]

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Ah yes.. I got mine.. and fuck everyone else.

No...We've all got a certain level of benefit. We're not here to foot every bill for everyone. It has to stop somewhere, or we'll have an 80%+ tax burden.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Have you ever been to the DMV?

Have you ever mailed or received a letter?

The US postal service provides universal mail service, with pickup/delivery from your home 6 days a week, for some of the lowest prices in the world.

In 1996 when the dollar was worth something, we charged $.32 cents when the Europeans were charging 50-100% more.

Unlike other government provided services, the US Postal service exists as a separate not-for-profit corporation with a day-to-day operation not dictated by lobbyists and healthy commercial alternatives to its premium services (like overnight mail).

I'd LOVE government health and retirement plans run like that.

France and Canada provide universal health care ($2080 and $2048 respectively vs $2364 in 2005) for what we spend just to provide medicare and medicaid (with outrageous premiums compared to group plans) for a subset of the population so this is demonstrably possible.

In practice I know it'll end up like Social security (negative to 2% return on investment) or government education (where 2 of 3 school employees aren't teachers where private industry gets by with 2 or 3 out of 10 people in administrative/support roles) because the health industries lobbyists are going to keep getting their money; the insurance will just come from the government which then taxes the people instead of directly from the people paying for it.

[rehmwa 2]

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Yeah I was upset to see a room full of {{people}} feeding off a system I have to pay into, and getting the same care I was hoping to get (though I gave up after 4 hours). But that's the way it is.

isn't that the very definition of socialized medicine?

there are 2 - the one for those that end up paying; and the one for those that got it 'really' for free

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[pop 0]

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Yeah I was upset to see a room full of {{people}} feeding off a system I have to pay into, and getting the same care I was hoping to get (though I gave up after 4 hours). But that's the way it is.

isn't that the very definition of socialized medicine?

No, in socialized medicine everyone has the opportunity to get the same help. No one is turned down because they dont have insurance.

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[Butters 0]

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It's funny understandable that most of the extremely self-centered rational individuals posting here were also beneficiaries of a taxpayer subsidized education and are now paying taxes to support subsidized education but do not want to pay more taxes for subsidized health care (which they were not beneficiaries of).

Fixed it for you.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[lawrocket 3]

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Ah yes.. I got mine.. and fuck everyone else.

Are you actually say, "Ah yes. You paid for yours. Now pay for everyone else's."

Or are you saying, "Ah yes. You paid for yours. Go fuck yourself."

Or should you really be saying, "You didn't get yours. You earned it and paid for it. You should pay for others."

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rehmwa 2]

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Yeah I was upset to see a room full of {{people}} feeding off a system I have to pay into, and getting the same care I was hoping to get (though I gave up after 4 hours). But that's the way it is.

isn't that the very definition of socialized medicine?

No, in socialized medicine everyone has the opportunity to get the same help. No one is turned down because they dont have insurance.

you missed the point (probably on purpose) - it was about everyone getting it, but only a few paying for it - just like you complained about - that damn "roomful of illegals feeding off" of "your system.

heck - you paid for it, they didn't, AND you were bumped to the back of the line. This is a great victory for social democrats everywhere. REJOICE - it works as hoped. As someone with money, your job is to pay for the public emergency, AND go off and find your own private emergency room and pay for that out of pocket. SURE - that's NOTHING like socialized medicine at all.....

but that's the way it is

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[pop 0]

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Yeah I was upset to see a room full of {{people}} feeding off a system I have to pay into, and getting the same care I was hoping to get (though I gave up after 4 hours). But that's the way it is.

isn't that the very definition of socialized medicine?

No, in socialized medicine everyone has the opportunity to get the same help. No one is turned down because they dont have insurance.

you missed the point (probably on purpose) - it was about everyone getting it, but only a few paying for it - just like you complained about - that damn "roomful of illegals feeding off" of "your system.

heck - you paid for it, they didn't, AND you were bumped to the back of the line. This is a great victory for social democrats everywhere. REJOICE - it works as hoped. As someone with money, your job is to pay for the public emergency, AND go off and find your own private emergency room and pay for that out of pocket. SURE - that's NOTHING like socialized medicine at all.....

but that's the way it is

I dont see how "heck - you paid for it, they didn't, AND you were bumped to the back of the line. This is a great victory for social democrats everywhere. " is a victory. It's simply an example of the failure of the current system.

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[lawrocket 3]

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The US postal service provides universal mail service, with pickup/delivery from your home 6 days a week, for some of the lowest prices in the world.

And the Post Office has been in trouble. You know, charging below market prices for market-level services is always a failing business model.

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In 1996 when the dollar was worth something, we charged $.32 cents when the Europeans were charging 50-100% more.

I don't give a shit how much it cost in Europe. Europe is no better or worse than the US, unless it comes to hating themselves.

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Unlike other government provided services, the US Postal service exists as a separate not-for-profit corporation with a day-to-day operation not dictated by lobbyists and healthy commercial alternatives to its premium services (like overnight mail).

So why is it contracting with other entities?

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I'd LOVE government health and retirement plans run like that.

In March, 2001, the USPS had a budget deficit of a couple billion dollars. What happened? The USPS is in, and has been in, serious financial trouble, which is continuing because of competition from FedEx, UPS and the internet.

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France and Canada provide universal health care ($2080 and $2048 respectively vs $2364 in 2005) for what we spend just to provide medicare and medicaid (with outrageous premiums compared to group plans) for a subset of the population so this is demonstrably possible.

And in France they are cutting back the benefits because of issues affording it. And in Canada, people are ding while waiting for specialists.

EVERY system rations its healthcare, including the US, where it is rationed by price.

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In practice I know it'll end up like Social security (negative to 2% return on investment) or government education (where 2 of 3 school employees aren't teachers where private industry gets by with 2 or 3 out of 10 people in administrative/support roles)

Or like the post office - in financial trouble and struggling to meet its commitments.

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the health industries lobbyists are going to keep getting their money;

That's not socialized, then.

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the insurance will just come from the government which then taxes the people instead of directly from the people paying for it.

Interesting point. If people directly paid for it, health care would be cheaper. Why, if you take out 12 people in bureacracy to make the payment, and it is a one to one transaction, it's amazing what can happen.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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To all:

Where does it stop? We pay enough tax as it is. I have no problem sustaining the existing (albeit too heavy) tax burden, but...

When the people paying for it get fed up, renounce their citizenship (America is one of the only countries which charges its citizens income tax regardless of where they live), and leave the country for a tax haven (some nice central American countries have 15% top tax rates, houses for $40K, live in household help for $200 a month, and are getting medical systems which match ours since we can't afford to retire here and bring our doctors with us when we leave). As of 2005 the top 10% of the wage earners were paying 70% of the income tax bill, 5% 60%, and 1% 40%.

We live in a time when ideas are the most valuable property, we can communicate instantly between continents, and you can be anywhere for business within a day or two.

Or when the total tax burden (we have the highest corporate tax rate in the developed world) and resulting cost of living (people have estimated that our money would go 8X farther without taxes taken out at each step) renders us uncompetitive with countries that have labor costs 1/3 - 1/10th ours and the economy collapses with mass unemployment and hyper-inflation.

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When does all this socialist bullshit stop? Healthcare would dwarf most any other social program.

Taking the profit out of health care and introducing quantities of scale would let us do it for less than we're spending now. The French and Canadian governments spend less for universal health care than we do on medicare and medicaid; the later which we charge people more for than private group plans.

Unfortunately about half the tax payers have little incentive to be efficient since as of 2005 they were only covering 3% of the costs supported by income tax.

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Take care of your own fucking needs.

The 50% of the population not paying for government is going to use your money to take care of their wants. The best you can do is influencing an implementation which hurts less than the alternatives.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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the health industries lobbyists are going to keep getting their money;

That's not socialized, then.

Sure it is just like defense. Although the government writes the checks for defense, all our weapons and up to half our soldiers come from private companies which add their own markups.

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Interesting point. If people directly paid for it, health care would be cheaper. Why, if you take out 12 people in bureacracy to make the payment, and it is a one to one transaction, it's amazing what can happen.

Right. Low cost services require low overhead.

Cutting the profit out of it couldn't hurt either - I get better interest rates on CDs and paid less on my mortgage from my not-for-profit credit union than I would at for-profit bank like Wells Fargo.

Of course, a group which existed solely to provide health coverage for its members wouldn't be legal.

[mirage62 0]

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The system in the USA ain't all it is cracked up to be - neither is Canada, but I will take the socialized system over the crap I have today......

TK, not trying to be an ass but how did you come out when you broke your neck? I believe you were in surgery pretty quick. Did you have insurance at the time? How did that work out? You don't have a very safe job and people that do what you do get hurt a bit..........but $750.00 a month??

Perhaps I'm wrong and you got screwed when you broke your neck, but I'd like to hear about that. Perhaps it would have been BETTER up North. As we all sat around watching the video you seem to have been getting pretty good health care.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[rehmwa 2]

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I dont see how "heck - you paid for it, they didn't, AND you were bumped to the back of the line. This is a great victory for social democrats everywhere. " is a victory.

My apologies, I forgot how tediously difficult swapping posts was with you.

Not seeing that connection is a big reason why so many people think socialized health care is some kind of panacea.

Sorry you had a bad time at the ER

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[livendive 8]

Yes, the USPS is one of the few examples of where the government has gotten something right. It fits in my model of what government should be (a provider of basic infrastructure to facilitate commerce). Somehow, I doubt that univeral healthcare (especially of the mandated variety) would be so customer-oriented and cost-effective.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[tkhayes 126]

The broken neck cost about $80,000. About $5000 out of my pocket, a trashed credit report and literally 5-6" of paperwork that I had to manage.

back then I was paying about $180/month for insurance. Now I pay $750 in a group plan because I could not get a private plan if I wanted one (they would exclude ANYTHING to do with my spine as a pre-existing condition). So I will be in a group plan for the rest of my life, paying whatever they ask, since shopping around has produced NO relief.

last year our rates went up by 22% 'just because'. My doctor thinks I am fully recovered. obviously the insurance companies think i am still some sort of risk since I am 'fully recovered'

I bet the overhead that the insurance companies produce outweighs the government bureaucracy that would exist in a govt run system. just my guess.

10 years ago, I would have (and did) chosen the US system over the Canadian system. Today it has broken down into a pay-more-for-less system that does not work. Today i choose a govt run universal healthcare system for the simple fact that what we have IS ACTUALLY BROKEN. politicians talk about fixing it, but no one does.

At least in a universal system, EVERYONE would have access to it, less fighting, and probably no less level of service than we are receiving now. I am even for a dual system, keep private hospitals as well - the ich are going to use them anyway, regardless of the free stuff.

Canada is so afraid of going to a 2-tier system, they think is will be a problem, which makes no sense, since they effectively already have one - the rich Canadians fly to the USA and pay cash for procedures rather than wait in Canada.

Finland has a 2 tier system that appears to work pretty well - I hear no one going out to the world to see what else is there - everyone only compares the US to Canada.

And so many americans think the Canadian system is a complete failure, but like I said earlier, NO canadians would give it up (except those that can afford private care already on their own.)

TK

[tkhayes 126]

and there is an easy fix for that - in a 'Canadian' system, the rules can change too - i.e. we don't do pregnancy tests, especially in ER's - you can buy one at rite-aid.

Just like in Canada, they do not do plastic surgery, dentistry, eyeware, etc under the health plans than exist.

I am not suggesting a universal system that covers everything all the time. I am not even against co-pay s and deductibles. I am tired of paying HUGE FUCKING AMOUNTS OF MONEY and getting fuck-all for it.

TK

[tkhayes 126]

As far as Canada goes and how they would have handled my surgery - here's an approximation of what would have happened.

I would have received the same priority service in ER with a broken neck- a X-Ray & CT scan probably, but I doubt I would have gotten an MRI without a long wait, perhaps weeks.

I would have received the same surgery in the same timely fashion, the problem is that the doctors would have performed it without seeing an MRI - some would argue that this is a huge problem, but MRI technology is fairly recent and spinal fusions were done before MRI's too.

I would have received good hospital care and be sent home in the same amount of time.

Physical therapy would probably have been sparse, many clinics are private and the gov't spends only so much money, but at least they would have taught me the exercises to do, and sure, I might have to go to the YMCA if i really want to help in my own recovery. (which I did here anyway)

I would have received follow-up care as well, but in the USA, I got a set of X-rays every month for the first 3 months - in Canada, i expect that might have been less - perhaps one set during the healing process to make sure the grafts were taking.

What I would NOT have had to do is:
- receive bill from a company saying I owe them money and that my insurance company denied my claim. Like the ambulance, the radiology, the surgeon, and several from various businesses that operate at the hospital. All of which are actually covered under my plan.
- then I would NOT have to write the insurance company and ask why they denied my claim (referencing the time/date of service, the company name, the invoice number, reference number, the amount and the line item)
- receive a reply from the insurance company in 30 days stating that they had reveiwed my claim and decided that it was correctl processed and they do NOT have to pay.
- then write a SECOND letter asking them to show me WHERE in my policy did it states that they did not cover said service or fee (again referencing the time/date of service, the company name, the invoice number, reference number, the amount and the line item)
- then wait 30 days again to receive a letter stating that they had gone ahead and paid the claim.

I did this process so many times for so many bills that rolled in that i actually created my own 'letter 1' and 'letter 2' form letters with blanks so I could easily just write in all the numbers, dates etc.

I had to create a filing system sorted by both vendor and claim numbers to keep track of it all, and in the process, sure a couple things got dropped. a $300 radiology bill and a $65 bill got through the cracks and I did not find out until I went to buy a stove at Best Buy (3 years later) and was denied due to bad credit.

I got a credit report the other day, and depending on what company, those items are still there, FUCKING ME EVERY TIME I GO TO GET A MORTGAGE OR LOAN, even though i have now paid them, and contacted the credit reporting agencies with the correct information.

But I am not able to sue the credit agnecies for getting a high interest rate on a mortgage - they would say it is 'my problem'

Now ask yourself if everyone out there is able to follow such a process.

everyone is capable of having an accident, few are capable of dealign with the consequences.

The current system is the USA is fucked beyond - and radical change for the 'good of the people' might be a start. God knows this government has done NOTHING for the people - but loads for large corporations. - which by the way is seldom 'good for the people'

TK

[georgerussia 0]

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Ah yes.. I got mine.. and fuck everyone else.

I'd say it is different in most posts - I worked hard to earn mine, and others should work hard to get theis. It's fine to provide it for free for those who are truly unable to work hard, but not for those who consider themselves taumatized for life because they were called an idiot once in the elementary school.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Lefty 0]

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The Preamble:

“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

I think the Framers were very precise with their language. Providing for the common defense and promoting the general welfare do not carry the same level of involvement or priority. See the difference?

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[livendive 8]

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Of course, a group which existed solely to provide health coverage for its members wouldn't be legal.

I've never thought of a "medical co-op" before. Why wouldn't it be legal?

Edit to add: And if it were legal, why couldn't it require a waiver similar to what we have in skydiving, protecting the healthcare providers from all but the most serious lawsuits, thereby reducing the cost of insurance paid by the membership?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[warpedskydiver 0]

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Move out of the country ASAP.

Next time you complain about "Illinoistan" or "Crook County" or Chicago and Fuhrer Daley, remember your own advice.

I would rather stay and fight, I was born and raised here, left briefly to serve my country,
and returned to live here, unlike you and Pop.

[ExAFO 0]

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Move out of the country ASAP.

Next time you complain about "Illinoistan" or "Crook County" or Chicago and Fuhrer Daley, remember your own advice.

I would rather stay and fight, I was born and raised here, went and served my country,
and returned to live here, unlike you and Pops.

Ditto, and thru the marvel of Contracting law, I contracted with the Federal Government to receive an education for services rendered, not a handout simply because I exist and breathe.

Quid pro quo, not quid pro nihilum.

Edited to add alternate latin phraseology, lest nitpicking ensue:

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do ut des, not quid pro nihilum.

That's my complaint-people who want something for nothing.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[warpedskydiver 0]

And mine as well, I have many gripes about how things are done, but deserving something is entirely different that demanding something.

When I got out of the service I was entitled to 12 more years of schooling, unfortunately the president who was in office from 1992-2000 saw fit to remove those benefits from me and many others.

During my period of active duty, there was no GI Bill or any other program to make sure that there was an opportunity for continuing education, I was merely the recipient of a few programs that helped disabled veterans.

Unfortunately for me, the people who were charged with running those programs never saw fit to actually pay any of my tution, subsistance, or any other cost incurred, I paid for everything out of my own pocket and was never reimbursed.

You see to them I was the wrong color, that was not the rules, but rather their own opinions.

Nice huh?

[Richards 0]

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I was merely the recipient of a few programs that helped disabled veterans.

Unfortunately for me, the people who were charged with running those programs never saw fit to actually pay any of my tution, subsistance, or any other cost incurred, I paid for everything out of my own pocket and was never reimbursed.

You see to them I was the wrong color, that was not the rules, but rather their own opinions.

WTF? Can you elaborate? Sounds pretty fucked up.

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[lawrocket 3]

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WTF? Can you elaborate? Sounds pretty fucked up.

Otter from Animal House could be a spokesman for the government. "You fucked up! You trusted us!"

Ask freethefly about how valid promises to take care of him turned out to be.

My wife is hotter than your wife.