National Academy of Sciences takes a stand

[pirana 0]

Interesting posts here. Might I suggest that a parent's relationship with their child be driven by a need to have um, . . . a uh, . . . . , what's the word I'm looking for, . . . . . RELATIONSHIP!

Yes, that's it! Rather than define who can do what, or parental and child rights set in terms of laws written by a bunch of stuffed shirt legislators (does anybody really want their behavior towards their kids ruled by legal precedents), maybe try just talking to them.

Instead of screaming about nobody has a right to this or right to that - just talk to them a lot and trreat them fairly and as the precious and impressionable little humans they are. Things might just go well enough that we can ignore all the stupid laws telling us not to do what only a fucking moron would do anyway.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[beowulf 1]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Most of this I can agree with except, the default should be the kid is NOT in class. Express consent should be given for them to attend by the parent

I'll disagree. You need to make the 'active' response be on the responsible parents. The irresponsible just won't do anything no matter what. And making it an elective would result in making it a class that 'costs' extra. Maybe correct in principle, but it doesn't help the kids that would need it for the same reason - parents that don't care enough to sign up for it sure wouldn't do it if they had to pay. As always, those that are responsible will always pay for those that aren't.

The schools only need to be VERY clear to all the parents what the content of such a class includes. I see most objections from parents who work with schools that take a presumptive stance on the issue. Rightly so.

Or, forced sterilization of irresponsible parents and retroactive abortion of kids up through the 200th month of kids of same would also work.

You want me to by default give up my rights.

You do not have the right to deprive your kids of sex education.

umm I think he does, at least I remember having to get consent from my parents to attend Sex Ed class in middle school.

[billvon 2,434]

>the default should be the kid is NOT in class.

Definitely not. The default should be to make sure the kid knows that unprotected sex can result in pregnancy or even HIV infection. If the parents are so poor that they can't be bothered to explain sex to the kid OR sign a piece of paper to keep her out of that class - then the school should teach the kid the information that might keep her from being a mother at age 13, or even save her life. HIV isn't just a moral issue; it kills people.

I am all for parents being responsible and taking an active role in their children's education. But when it comes to lousy parents, the default should be education, not ignorance.

[beowulf 1]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Most of this I can agree with except, the default should be the kid is NOT in class. Express consent should be given for them to attend by the parent

I'll disagree. You need to make the 'active' response be on the responsible parents. The irresponsible just won't do anything no matter what. And making it an elective would result in making it a class that 'costs' extra. Maybe correct in principle, but it doesn't help the kids that would need it for the same reason - parents that don't care enough to sign up for it sure wouldn't do it if they had to pay. As always, those that are responsible will always pay for those that aren't.

The schools only need to be VERY clear to all the parents what the content of such a class includes. I see most objections from parents who work with schools that take a presumptive stance on the issue. Rightly so.

Or, forced sterilization of irresponsible parents and retroactive abortion of kids up through the 200th month of kids of same would also work.

You want me to by default give up my rights.

You do not have the right to deprive your kids of sex education.

And you do not have any rights to teach my kid a dam thing about sex that I dont approve of.

You insinuation is just plain stupid

I find your posts pretty amusing. You seem to be one of those people with a severe case of false sense of control over your kids. You kids will learn lots of things with out your consent and unless you as a parent take a very active role in their lives they will learn many things you don't want them to learn. The taking an active role is what makes a responsible parent responsible, to what degree is up to you as a parent. If you don't like what public schools teach then don't send your kids to public schools.

[wmw999 2,148]

What in particular are you concerned about your kids learning? And why is the concern in sex education (aka "health class" when I was a kid) so much greater than in other topics, that probably have a lot more to do with their overall success in life? Like math, and science, and language.

Your kids are probably aware that other kids "do it." They probably talk with some of those kids, and they might even ask about it. "Just say no" has not been an effective preventive for teenaged sex in the past, and it's not likely to be in the future. Yes, abstinence does work. The problem is that you're expecting teenagers to do the abstaining?

When would it be OK for them to learn? On their marriage night? Before? When they turn 18? Or should (as an example) Catholics never learn about the existence of birth control?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

You want me to by default give up my rights.

Nonsense, my preference is to completely eliminate a "default" position either pro or con.

Quote

As I have stated before one of the attempts of a school here was to send the permission forms home with the child. If they did not get it back it was inferred you agreed to let them attend.

This is what's messed up. The school should communicate directly with the PARENT, not by proxy through the kid. Fix that, and then the parents get to choose - as they should. Then there is no 'default' position at all.

In retrospect, "no signed permission form?" = the kid takes study hall. But there shouldn't be a case of no form. It takes a phone call.

I see absolutely NO REASON why the school can't call those parents where they don't have a permission slip signed that indicates either yes or no clearly.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Channman 2]

I've just gotten back to this thread and apologize for not having all the details that have gotten this thread to were it is.

After reading several of the post and responses, I have a couple of question that maybe Lawrocket could answer.

If a minor child was to go to their school clinic and advise the nurse they were pregnant and wanted to seek advice on terminating the pregnancy. (1) Can the school without the parents involvement / notification transport said minor to a clinic where the abortion could be preformed?

(2) If said child was to develop serious complications during the night and fearing to inform their parents died of blood loss during the night. Could the school district, Nurse, Clinic be held responsible for the death as well as civil libility for providing medical treatment to a minor without parential consent?

Just one more thing, I would like to apologize to Kallend for Hi-jacking this thread. I would just like to say, "It's not my fault".

[rehmwa 2]

Both of those questions are seriously frightening.

If the parent is notified, then they go away. Rightly so.

In terms of right vs wrong (not legal which is your question).

1 - I really hope not.
2 - I really hope so.

that's also why all the decisions leading up to that scenario also needed to be in the hands of the parents who are responsible for the kid

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[christelsabine 1]

Quote

.....
And you do not have any rights to teach my kid a dam thing about sex that I dont approve of.
...

(He surely does not want to do that damn thing!)

So, in order to prevent any influence on your kids from outside:

Remove TV, radio, every single DVD, lock the doors, close the windows, drive away neighbours' kids, stomp every comic into the can....

Perhaps that might prevent your kids to get into contact with anyone else (instead you) telling/showing them anything regarding sex. I doubt that.

You will lose ground, dear. Anyhow. There ALWAYS will be another one teaching your kids infos about sex, if you like it or not. And that's a good thing. They have their own understanding, give them the chance to decide. Just stay beside, listen, watch and LET THEM THINK!

Damned.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

If a minor child was to go to their school clinic and advise the nurse they were pregnant and wanted to seek advice on terminating the pregnancy. (1) Can the school without the parents involvement / notification transport said minor to a clinic where the abortion could be preformed?

(2) If said child was to develop serious complications during the night and fearing to inform their parents died of blood loss during the night. Could the school district, Nurse, Clinic be held responsible for the death as well as civil libility for providing medical treatment to a minor without parential consent?

That's a creature of state law, and each state may be different.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rushmc 18]

You dont know me, and you have proven this by your post

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

Quote

What in particular are you concerned about your kids learning? And why is the concern in sex education (aka "health class" when I was a kid) so much greater than in other topics, that probably have a lot more to do with their overall success in life? Like math, and science, and language.

Your kids are probably aware that other kids "do it." They probably talk with some of those kids, and they might even ask about it. "Just say no" has not been an effective preventive for teenaged sex in the past, and it's not likely to be in the future. Yes, abstinence does work. The problem is that you're expecting teenagers to do the abstaining?

When would it be OK for them to learn? On their marriage night? Before? When they turn 18? Or should (as an example) Catholics never learn about the existence of birth control?

Wendy W.

Hi Wendy,

It is not so much as what, (which is what I have tried to convey here) as how.

I have no problem with the kids getting the information but how and in what context is huge to me.

For everyone else on this thread my kids, both my boys DID attend those classes. That still does not give somebody (besides me) the right to choose how they get the info.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Quote

.....
And you do not have any rights to teach my kid a dam thing about sex that I dont approve of.
...

(He surely does not want to do that damn thing!)

So, in order to prevent any influence on your kids from outside:

Remove TV, radio, every single DVD, lock the doors, close the windows, drive away neighbours' kids, stomp every comic into the can....

Perhaps that might prevent your kids to get into contact with anyone else (instead you) telling/showing them anything regarding sex. I doubt that.

You will lose ground, dear. Anyhow. There ALWAYS will be another one teaching your kids infos about sex, if you like it or not. And that's a good thing. They have their own understanding, give them the chance to decide. Just stay beside, listen, watch and LET THEM THINK!

Damned.

Different thread and context and not the point. Did you run out of intelligent things to post?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,648]

Quote

Quote

Quote

.....
And you do not have any rights to teach my kid a dam thing about sex that I dont approve of.
...

(He surely does not want to do that damn thing!)

So, in order to prevent any influence on your kids from outside:

Remove TV, radio, every single DVD, lock the doors, close the windows, drive away neighbours' kids, stomp every comic into the can....

Perhaps that might prevent your kids to get into contact with anyone else (instead you) telling/showing them anything regarding sex. I doubt that.

You will lose ground, dear. Anyhow. There ALWAYS will be another one teaching your kids infos about sex, if you like it or not. And that's a good thing. They have their own understanding, give them the chance to decide. Just stay beside, listen, watch and LET THEM THINK!

Damned.

Different thread and context and not the point. Did you run out of intelligent things to post?

Irony score 9.8

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[beowulf 1]

Quote

You dont know me, and you have proven this by your post

lol your posts are pretty funny. Very defensive.
If you read what I wrote I specifically stated that I was basing my opinion on what you wrote. I never said I knew you.

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Quote

You dont know me, and you have proven this by your post

lol your posts are pretty funny. Very defensive.
If you read what I wrote I specifically stated that I was basing my opinion on what you wrote. I never said I knew you.

What YOU posted would take first hand knowlege, which you do not have.........

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[livendive 8]

Quote

For everyone else on this thread my kids, both my boys DID attend those classes. That still does not give somebody (besides me) the right to choose how they get the info.

You chose to let them attend "those classes". If you want to dictate how each lesson is presented, you can pull your student out of the class and home-school them. Do you want to write every lecture your kid has to sit through or only those that relate to sex?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Quote

For everyone else on this thread my kids, both my boys DID attend those classes. That still does not give somebody (besides me) the right to choose how they get the info.

You chose to let them attend "those classes". If you want to dictate how each lesson is presented, you can pull your student out of the class and home-school them. Do you want to write every lecture your kid has to sit through or only those that relate to sex?

Blues,
Dave

You really expect any kind of answer to this?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[livendive 8]

Quote

Quote

Quote

For everyone else on this thread my kids, both my boys DID attend those classes. That still does not give somebody (besides me) the right to choose how they get the info.

You chose to let them attend "those classes". If you want to dictate how each lesson is presented, you can pull your student out of the class and home-school them. Do you want to write every lecture your kid has to sit through or only those that relate to sex?

Blues,
Dave

You really expect any kind of answer to this?

Not really.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 2,434]

>both my boys DID attend those classes.

Why did you choose to have them attend those classes?

[n23x 0]

A couple of questions and a couple of comments:

1.) Did your boys go to Sex Ed or health class in their school BECAUSE they didn't bring in a permission slip to you, and by default attended the class?

2.) If YES to 1, doesn't that make your boys the irresponsible ones rather than the school?

*Now comments time*

All of the people that think "getting the parent's consent isn't that hard", apparently haven't really been involved with their public schools. The sheer quantity of students crammed into schools these days, combined with irresponsible or over-worked parents that WON'T answer or return calls, makes this impossible. The resources of public schools are typically strung out so thin that the above concept is just ridiculous.

All that, combined with parents that don't give a fuck, or are working 3 jobs, or just can't find the time, produces a NEED to educate these young people with regard to what can happen if/when they have sex. Not in moral terms. Not how to start off with the chinese swing into acrobatic sex. Not to go for the ass the first night (only sometimes ok). Just the facts, Marc.

If you want to be pissed at your kids because they weren't responsible enough to bring home a permission slip, so be it. But to expect unavailable resources to be used to guarantee parents the option to keep their kids from receiving basic health education is a little over the top. If responsible parents comprised 100% of all parents, I might agree with you. They don't. Be proud that you're a good parent, and are involved with your kids. But don't punish a young person who WON'T receive the kind of love and education you provide your kids. It's a social issue, that's all.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[jakee 1,259]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

For everyone else on this thread my kids, both my boys DID attend those classes. That still does not give somebody (besides me) the right to choose how they get the info.

You chose to let them attend "those classes". If you want to dictate how each lesson is presented, you can pull your student out of the class and home-school them. Do you want to write every lecture your kid has to sit through or only those that relate to sex?

Blues,
Dave

You really expect any kind of answer to this?

Not really.

Blues,
Dave

I'm still waiting to hear why sex-ed is 'anti-religious'. I can only think it's because it deals with stuff that actually happens in the real world. Of course that would be silly, 'cos then science classes would be 'anti-religious' too and... oh wait, yeah I guess that is the reason.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rushmc 18]

Quote

>both my boys DID attend those classes.

Why did you choose to have them attend those classes?

Because I knew who was teaching it and how it was taught

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

Quote

A couple of questions and a couple of comments:

1.) Did your boys go to Sex Ed or health class in their school BECAUSE they didn't bring in a permission slip to you, and by default attended the class?No

2.) If YES to 1, doesn't that make your boys the irresponsible ones rather than the school?

*Now comments time*

All of the people that think "getting the parent's consent isn't that hard", apparently haven't really been involved with their public schools. The sheer quantity of students crammed into schools these days, combined with irresponsible or over-worked parents that WON'T answer or return calls, makes this impossible. The resources of public schools are typically strung out so thin that the above concept is just ridiculous.There were 50 in my sons class

All that, combined with parents that don't give a fuck,I am not one and it is still not excuse or are working 3 jobs, or just can't find the time, produces a NEED to educate these young people with regard to what can happen if/when they have sex. Not in moral terms. Not how to start off with the chinese swing into acrobatic sex. Not to go for the ass the first night (only sometimes ok). Just the facts, Marc.

If you want to be pissed at your kids because they weren't responsible enough to bring home a permission slip, so be it. But to expect unavailable resources to be used to guarantee parents the option to keep their kids from receiving basic health education is a little over the top. If responsible parents comprised 100% of all parents, I might agree with you. They don't. Be proud that you're a good parent, and are involved with your kids. But don't punish a young person who WON'T receive the kind of love and education you provide your kids. It's a social issue, that's all.

.jim

I am only bothered by your araogance regarding the topic of parental rights

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

For everyone else on this thread my kids, both my boys DID attend those classes. That still does not give somebody (besides me) the right to choose how they get the info.

You chose to let them attend "those classes". If you want to dictate how each lesson is presented, you can pull your student out of the class and home-school them. Do you want to write every lecture your kid has to sit through or only those that relate to sex?

Blues,
Dave

You really expect any kind of answer to this?

Not really.

Blues,
Dave

I'm still waiting to hear why sex-ed is 'anti-religious'. it is not if taught in the right context. One of responcibiltiy and consequensesI can only think it's because it deals with stuff that actually happens in the real world. Of course that would be silly, 'cos then science classes would be 'anti-religious' too and... oh wait, yeah I guess that is the reason.nice twist but not the point I make

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln