National Academy of Sciences takes a stand

[jakee 1,259]

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WHAT??? I really do not know where you got this. I am saying it is not the states job. It is mine.

So if you're going to teach them anyway, why are you so mad about schools doing it?

And you still haven't said why you think it's a morality issue?

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Again, just the off topic argument to make you feel better about your position, but in a broader sense, yes, parents SHOULD have complete control of the non three R's taught in school at a local level, as was inteneded

Intended by who?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,259]

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...which is why they shouldn't be taught religion in science class.

If the parents in that school think is should then it should. (which gets back to the OP of this thread).

In a school which gets government funding?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[christelsabine 1]

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.....
Again, sex ed classes aren't telling your kids to do things you don't want them to do. They are not aying 'go out and have sex'. They're telling them about how to reduce the dangers of sex if they go out and have it. Would you simply never let your kids know about condoms?

If you want to have complete control over what is taught to your kids then you'd better be prepared to homeschool them, ban them from watching TV or reading the newspaper and never let them out of the house.

Exactly that. And that's also exactly what our kids here are taught in sex ed classes - parents know what they're talking about, know books etc. - nobody is complaining about "taking parents' rights away". We always were in close contacts with teachers of our kids and knew what was going on in that subject, as well as talking about sex with the kids as soon as they started to ask.

Simple as that.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[rushmc 18]

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WHAT??? I really do not know where you got this. I am saying it is not the states job. It is mine.

So if you're going to teach them anyway, why are you so mad about schools doing it?

And you still haven't said why you think it's a morality issue?Just the fact you have to ask this is the very reason somebody else should not be allowed to do it.

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Again, just the off topic argument to make you feel better about your position, but in a broader sense, yes, parents SHOULD have complete control of the non three R's taught in school at a local level, as was inteneded

Intended by who?

Our founding fathers

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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...which is why they shouldn't be taught religion in science class.

If the parents in that school think is should then it should. (which gets back to the OP of this thread).

In a school which gets government funding?

Yes,

Again, seperation of church and state is used in a bogus context to help a minority use courts to push thier agenda.
You dont have to believe me (which I am sure you do not) read the Federalists Papers on the topic of church and state

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jakee 1,259]

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And you still haven't said why you think it's a morality issue?Just the fact you have to ask this is the very reason somebody else should not be allowed to do it.

Why is teaching about how STD's, pregnancy and condoms work a morality issue?

Is teaching about the reproductive system in Biology a morality issue? Is teaching about gunpowder and explosives in Chemistry a morality issue? Is teaching about wars in History a morality issue?

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Our founding fathers

Show me where they said that?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rushmc 18]

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.....
Again, sex ed classes aren't telling your kids to do things you don't want them to do. They are not aying 'go out and have sex'. They're telling them about how to reduce the dangers of sex if they go out and have it. Would you simply never let your kids know about condoms?

If you want to have complete control over what is taught to your kids then you'd better be prepared to homeschool them, ban them from watching TV or reading the newspaper and never let them out of the house.

Exactly that. And that's also exactly what our kids here are taught in sex ed classes - parents know what they're talking about, know books etc. - nobody is complaining about "taking parents' rights away". We always were in close contacts with teachers of our kids and knew what was going on in that subject, as well as talking about sex with the kids as soon as they started to ask.

Simple as that.

If you choose to give up your rights that is YOUR choice. The problem comes when you want to make the choice for me and others using some silly arguments

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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And you still haven't said why you think it's a morality issue?Just the fact you have to ask this is the very reason somebody else should not be allowed to do it.

Why is teaching about how STD's, pregnancy and condoms work a morality issue?

Is teaching about the reproductive system in Biology a morality issue? Is teaching about gunpowder and explosives in Chemistry a morality issue? Is teaching about wars in History a morality issue?

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Our founding fathers

Show me where they said that?

You twist the context of my post here . State rule and seperation of church and state issues are in the Fed papers. But I guess they are my countries papers, not yours

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[christelsabine 1]

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...
Exactly that. And that's also exactly what our kids here are taught in sex ed classes - parents know what they're talking about, know books etc. - nobody is complaining about "taking parents' rights away". We always were in close contacts with teachers of our kids and knew what was going on in that subject, as well as talking about sex with the kids as soon as they started to ask.

Simple as that.

If you choose to give up your rights that is YOUR choice. The problem comes when you want to make the choice for me and others using some silly arguments

Wrong. Parents do have the right to say NO, if they do not agree to contents of sex edu as taught in school! In case they dislike it/disagree, the kid will be excempted from class.

Simple as that.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[jakee 1,259]

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You twist the context of my post here . State rule and seperation of church and state issues are in the Fed papers. But I guess they are my countries papers, not yours

Eh? 1st I asked you to explain why you think teaching kids about how STD's, condoms and pregnancy work is a morality issue. "Nobody has a right (under any law) to teach my children what is moral or not moral."

2nd I asked you to show me what the founding fathers wrote concerning schools and the 3R/ non-3R subjects. "parents SHOULD have complete control of the non three R's taught in school at a local level, as was inteneded"

No twisting or re-contexting required.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rushmc 18]

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...
Exactly that. And that's also exactly what our kids here are taught in sex ed classes - parents know what they're talking about, know books etc. - nobody is complaining about "taking parents' rights away". We always were in close contacts with teachers of our kids and knew what was going on in that subject, as well as talking about sex with the kids as soon as they started to ask.

Simple as that.

If you choose to give up your rights that is YOUR choice. The problem comes when you want to make the choice for me and others using some silly arguments

Wrong. Parents do have the right to say NO, if they do not agree to contents of sex edu as taught in school! In case they dislike it/disagree, the kid will be excempted from class.

Simple as that.



In this case I have no problem. But, I do know where the schools leave it to the kids to tell the parents. That does not work. The school needs to take direct face to face action to get permision to teach this, not let it happen by default

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[nerdgirl 0]

Thanks.

Well done.

In whole, it’s not an evolutionary biology or cosmology text/monograph.
Chapter 1 & 2 are science (e.g., biology, genetics, cosmology) with social science sidebars.

Chapter 3 presents -- & debunks thoroughly -- the Creationist/intelligent design/young earth argument *in a scientific context* (nothing about religious context).

I’m not sure if I understand the reasoning behind the inclusion of the chapter on creationism/‘young earth’/‘intelligent design’ (but no Flying Spaghetti monster ) critiques of evolution – as it may lend validation to the “teach the controversy” argument,

Chapter 3 and the other sidebars are, nonetheless, very respectful and *not* at all dismissive.
E.g., pp. 13-15 includes comments by Pope John Paul II, the Central Conference of American Rabbis, the Presbyterian General Assembly, and the Clergy Letter Project disputing the assertion that evolution is inherently in conflict with religious belief. I’m glad to see that minister at my church has signed.

VR/Marg

p.s. Don’t take my word for. While it can be fun to argue on principle alone, look for yourself: the booklet is available free in pdf form at the NAS site. It does ask for an email addy, altho’ I strongly suspect that one could submit a contrived one.

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[freethefly 6]

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And, YOU, as a parent should teach your kids about STD's in the context YOU belive it correct and right.

If most parents knew the facts about STD's and honestly taught their children the facts, then fine, they should teach them. Most parents, most likely, do not know the facts and are not able to teach their children about the many STD's. I don't know you but, I'll near guarantee that you, yourself and many others, know very little about syphylis, gonnorhea and HIV. I am still shocked to the number of people I have met who do not even know what the letters H.I.V. and A.I.D.S. stand for. I, myself, was ignorant of the facts until I contracted HIV. I knew nothing about it. I never even heard of HIV but heard of AIDS and only thought that gay people could catch it. I wasn't aware that AIDS was actually the end stage of HIV. Most people are ignorant about these subjects and have never done intense research on it, therefore they are not equipt to teach anyone, let alone their children, about STD's.

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I do not want others teaching my kids about these issues in any context.

What qualifies you to teach anyone about STD's? What research have you done and what are your qualifications concerning the matter? Where have you gone to learn the neccasary subject materiel to be able to correctly inform another person? Are you equipt with subject materiel such as books, visual aids and demonstration equipment? Will you be testing your child to see if he or she as absorbed the materiel? I doubt it. The vast majority of people would give a 5 minute talk that would consist of "Don't have sex and you'll be safe". When the kid comes home pregnant or with an STD it would be the fault of the ill informed parent. The birds and bee talk just doesn't cut it.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[nerdgirl 0]

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On top of that, back when I had sex ed in health, parents could opt of out their students being involved.

Your description resembles my recollections – including the mandatory parental permission.

Parents were always able & *encouraged* to review the material covered. Wonder how many did? I’m sure some did. I also remember being one of the few who had had “Are You There God? It’s Me, Margaret” talk with my mom (an RN) *before* the first class.

Semi-tangential:
Between the ‘subtle’ (or not so) sex of Britney Spears, etc. marketed to ‘tweens;’ thongs for pre-teen girls (while Abercrombie & Finch did get rid of the 'wink-wink’ and ‘eye-candy’ on the pre-pubescent and adolescent thongs “sales of thongs to tweens {a market now defined ridiculously broadly as ages 7 to 12} have quadrupled since 2000, from a modest $400,000 to $1.6 million, according to NPD Fashionworld, a market-tracking firm”); and the explicit sex (soft core porn to bdsm) of the internet, I’d be scared to *not* have sex education for my kids (future). For me (& owned very much as my perspective), it’s about education over ignorance.

I also might be persuaded to the wisdom (?) of my father & start teaching girls to shoot at 16, 14, 12 …? (Of course, first I’d need to re-learn to do so safely myself …) And Krav Maga … I dunno. Saving the world from WMD terrorism seems so much easier & more straight-forward than the prospect of raising kids in the 21st century!

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[rushmc 18]

One more time my point is made. YOU want to take away my rights as a parent and insert your beliefs, teaching methods, what is taught and morality when it comes to teaching my children.

YOU have decided that I have have my children taught what you beleive and by whom.

Talk about taking power away from the people.

Parents teaching thier children about these supjects worked for years. It is only different today because?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jakee 1,259]

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YOU want to take away my rights as a parent and insert your beliefs, teaching methods, what is taught and morality when it comes to teaching my children.

What 'morality' are you talking about?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Amazon 7]

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Parents teaching thier children about these supjects worked for years. It is only different today because?

So basically.... the old tried method is there

The Wages of Sin is death.


Yup that about covers it.

[freethefly 6]

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Parents teaching thier children about these supjects worked for years.

Wrong, parents have failed and sex ed has not done enough. The numbers show that both are at fault for not doing enough. But, consider that people will be people and no amount of information will completely stop the spread. Only an individual using the proper information given can stop the spread.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchstp/dstd/Stats_Trends/Stats_and_Trends.htm

I have no problem with a parent teaching their children, providing that they give the right information. Most people are not equipt nor properly informed to teach a person about STDs. I am only properly informed due to having lived with HIV for, come february, 13 years. I've gone to a large number of classes and listened to siminars as well as read a vast amount of materiel on the subject. How many people do you know who have done this? Have you taken the time to be properly informed? How many hours have you spent informing yourself? Do you have any background qualifications to teach another about STDs? If not, you're most likely giving out improper information and that is just as dangerous as giving out no information at all.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[kallend 1,648]

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Compltelty off point. This is about a nanny state, some one else telling me as a parent what and how it should be taught to my children and then to top it off, teach them what they can do to help reduce the risk a bit when they do something I teach them they shouldnt do while telling me they will do it anyway.

Again, sex ed classes aren't telling your kids to do things you don't want them to do. They are not aying 'go out and have sex'. They're telling them about how to reduce the dangers of sex if they go out and have it. Would you simply never let your kids know about condoms?
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WHAT??? I really do not know where you got this. I am saying it is not the states job. It is mine. To take the debate to the point of saying "but but, some parents dont" is just an excuse used to be able for you to teach my kids what they are to be taught and how.
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If you want to have complete control over what is taught to your kids then you'd better be prepared to homeschool them, ban them from watching TV or reading the newspaper and never let them out of the house.

Again, just the off topic argument to make you feel better about your position, but in a broader sense, yes, parents SHOULD have complete control of the non three R's taught in school at a local level, as was inteneded

"Logic" and "spelling" are also without "R", which might explain something about your posts here.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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Compltelty off point. This is about a nanny state, some one else telling me as a parent what and how it should be taught to my children and then to top it off, teach them what they can do to help reduce the risk a bit when they do something I teach them they shouldnt do while telling me they will do it anyway.

Again, sex ed classes aren't telling your kids to do things you don't want them to do. They are not aying 'go out and have sex'. They're telling them about how to reduce the dangers of sex if they go out and have it. Would you simply never let your kids know about condoms?
====================================
WHAT??? I really do not know where you got this. I am saying it is not the states job. It is mine. To take the debate to the point of saying "but but, some parents dont" is just an excuse used to be able for you to teach my kids what they are to be taught and how.
====================================
If you want to have complete control over what is taught to your kids then you'd better be prepared to homeschool them, ban them from watching TV or reading the newspaper and never let them out of the house.

Again, just the off topic argument to make you feel better about your position, but in a broader sense, yes, parents SHOULD have complete control of the non three R's taught in school at a local level, as was inteneded

"Logic" and "spelling" are also without "R", which might explain something about your posts here.

Well well, introduce yourself back into the debate with something stupid and insulting. And all in one line!!!!

the kallend we all know and love is back

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,434]

> This is about a nanny state, some one else telling me as a parent
> what and how it should be taught to my children . . .

That's the definition of "public school." You can homeschool your children if you choose. If not, then the public school will teach your kids per its curriculum, not yours.

>the argument is still removing parents rights and giving it to the state.

Absurd. It is providing a service that you can choose not to avail yourself of.

[rushmc 18]

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> This is about a nanny state, some one else telling me as a parent
> what and how it should be taught to my children . . .

That's the definition of "public school." You can homeschool your children if you choose. If not, then the public school will teach your kids per its curriculum, not yours.

>the argument is still removing parents rights and giving it to the state.

Absurd. It is providing a service that you can choose not to avail yourself of.

Sorry, but I do not agree. (it may be the definition you want) Public schools are still supposed to be guided by the community they are in. What has happened is the Feds and teachers unions have stepped in to change that.

As a group, you and others agrue about the rights of people being removed. But yet you support this. I find the inconsistancy very troubling

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,434]

>Public schools are still supposed to be guided by the community they are in.

So if most of your community wanted to teach Islamic Shari'a, you'd be OK with that? I wouldn't be.

Public school is not there to force your values on other children. It is to teach the basics of reading, math, history, health, science etc to prepare children to function in the real world and prepare them for jobs/college. Knowing how their bodies work is part of knowing how to function in the real world.

>What has happened is the Feds and teachers unions have stepped in to
>change that.

Good for them. Choose a basic curriculum based on what they need to know and not what each community thinks, and implement it. If you don't like it, pull your kids out and teach them what YOU want.

>As a group, you and others agrue about the rights of people being removed.

Offering an optional service removes no one's rights. Indeed, it INCREASES your rights by giving you a choice - free public education or your own education.

[rushmc 18]

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>Public schools are still supposed to be guided by the community they are in.

So if most of your community wanted to teach Islamic Shari'a, you'd be OK with that? If you want to be extreem you can do that with yourself I wouldn't be.

Public school is not there to force your values on other children.Exactly, and that is what you are supporting here whether you admit it or not It is to teach the basics of reading, math, history, health, science etc to prepare children to function in the real world and prepare them for jobs/college. Agreed Knowing how their bodies work is part of knowing how to function in the real world.To a degree

>What has happened is the Feds and teachers unions have stepped in to
>change that.

Good for them. Choose a basic curriculum based on what they need to know and not what each community thinks, and implement it. If you don't like it, pull your kids out and teach them what YOU want.Then dont bitch about the Feds pushing things and removing rights you deem important

>As a group, you and others agrue about the rights of people being removed.

Offering an optional service removes no one's rights. Indeed, it INCREASES your rights by giving you a choice - free public education or your own education.

a blantent twist of what I said at best

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[nerdgirl 0]

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Public schools are still supposed to be guided by the community they are in. What has happened is the Feds and teachers unions have stepped in to change that.

As a group, you and others agrue about the rights of people being removed. But yet you support this. I find the inconsistancy very troubling

Marc,

I'm genuinely trying to understand better your position because you know that I adore you and am confident that you have strongly-based reasons behind your position.

What do you see as the role of publicly-elected school boards, which have to approve curricula? Do you see examples where that has failed?

Are there really public schools in the US that don’t require parental permission or have an opt-out option for kids to attend sex ed classes? {I’m genuinely asking because I don’t know; my speculation is that in our litigious society, no school board would approve a curriculum that did not include parental permission … but I’ve been wrong before.}

Thanks.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying