Buying biofuel for your car could be more devastating to the planet than traditional fossil fuels.

[Erroll 49]

From Sky

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Environmentalists claim that an area of forest the size of Wales was cleared last year as Indonesia cashes in on the new "green gold" and plants miles of palm oil trees to meet surging demand.

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I found a zircon mine that had turned the forest into a desert. How on earth could the authorities not have noticed the moonscape left behind?

Everything comes at a price, eh?

[labrys 0]

Biofuel isn't bad for the planet. Greedy people making irresponsible choices about where to plant palm trees is bad for the planet.

Owned by Remi #?

[Misternatural 0]

There is absolutely the potential to mis-manage and abuse ANY technology. Wisdom and intelligent decision making has to be applied to insure that the bio fuel movement proceed in a sustainable manner. This includes the use of agricultural, forest, and wilderness areas to produce fuel raw material. What is most worrisome is the switch from food crops to fuel crops- Imagine the use of pesticides, herbicides and GMOs for NON food crops.

It's good that people are aware of this danger and are concerned about it, However, the biofuel movement can take hold and eventually be a substantial replacement for fossil fuels. If Govt. scientist, producers, and consumers proceed responsibly the biofuel movement will take humanity in a more sustainable and sane direction.

For those people that don't care about the environment- consider a lower fuel bill.

We as skydivers should be especially excited about the new diesel engines and jets for aircraft which may be able to burn biodiesel. Imagine a DZ that smells like popcorn instead of petro exhaust.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[JackC 0]

It all boils down to one thing. There is a finite amount of resources and we have an exponential increase in demand. The green movement is a response to the fact that people have noticed that the ecosystem is starting to give way. As soon as we plug one hole, another one appears to take it's place. Unless we address the underlying problem, ie too many people, all we can hope to achieve is a stay of execution. Party on dudes, party on.

[lawrocket 3]

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Unless we address the underlying problem, ie too many people

How would you propose that we solve this problem of too many people? Who should live and who should die? Who should be allowed to breed and who should not? And how many kids should people behaving?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 2,400]

>How would you propose that we solve this problem of too many people?

Education, availability of birth control and financial incentives. (i.e. "two kids or less" tax break.)

Bill's Ultimate Solution (tm) -

A change to our genome that prevents conception unless you do something unusual (i.e. pull on your nose or whatever.) Would prevent accidental pregnancies and help ensure that children are wanted.

[JackC 0]

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How would you propose that we solve this problem of too many people?

The only way you can do it. Through birth control, education programs and tax breaks. It'll never happen though.

[lawrocket 3]

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How would you propose that we solve this problem of too many people?

The only way you can do it. Through birth control, education programs and tax breaks. It'll never happen though.

Okay. Seeing as how it will never happen we can eliminate this as an option.

Now, what is another solution that is grounded in pragmatism?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[JackC 0]

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Now, what is another solution that is grounded in pragmatism?

I am not aware of any other acceptable solution.

[kallend 1,623]

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How would you propose that we solve this problem of too many people?

The only way you can do it. Through birth control, education programs and tax breaks. It'll never happen though.

Okay. Seeing as how it will never happen we can eliminate this as an option.

Now, what is another solution that is grounded in pragmatism?

Ever read Jonathan Swift?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,400]

>Seeing as how it will never happen we can eliminate this as an option.

It already HAS happened here in the US. Without immigration we're at zero population growth. And we didn't need forced sterilizations to do it either! (at least since 1960 or so.)

[NCclimber 0]

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>Seeing as how it will never happen we can eliminate this as an option.

It already HAS happened here in the US. Without immigration we're at zero population growth. And we didn't need forced sterilizations to do it either! (at least since 1960 or so.)

Most of the population growth is occurring in Third World or Emerging Economies.

Tax breaks aren't really an option.

I doubt we could promote education and birth control to stop growth in those areas.

[billvon 2,400]

>I doubt we could promote education and birth control to stop
>growth in those areas.

Why couldn't we? Remove restrictions on teaching birth control in such places and fund family-planning clinics.

Yes, it would be expensive, but that's a choice we make - not an inherent reason it won't work.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>I doubt we could promote education and birth control to stop
>growth in those areas.

Why couldn't we? Remove restrictions on teaching birth control in such places and fund family-planning clinics.

Yes, it would be expensive, but that's a choice we make - not an inherent reason it won't work.

You have to fight the Catholic Church, the Reaganites, the Mormons, the ... ok, I'm getting less serious.

Birth rates go down as the society gets more affluent. Or when you start forcibly aborting the second child (China) and putting in strict reprisals.

But are there any success stories for family planning really putting a dent in birth rates in third world nations?

AIDS will probably 'solve' the population problem for Africa, and one of these avian flus (or disasters like the bursting of the 3 Gorges Dam) might do the same in Asia.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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AIDS will probably 'solve' the population problem for Africa

*** no it won't.

anyway, the problem is not as simple as "too many people"

Speed Racer
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[JackC 0]

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anyway, the problem is not as simple as "too many people"

Sure it is. If the worlds population were a fraction of the size it is now, you could burn as much fossil fuel as you wanted and it wouldn't make a dent in the atmospheric concentration of CO2 because the carbon sinks could handle it. There wouldn't be the problems of deforestation to clear farm land because it wouldn't be needed. The whole green agenda is fueled by the fact that natural resources can't cope with the demand they are being put under. Remove some of the demand and the strain is releived. Fookin simple really.

[skinnyflyer 0]

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However, the biofuel movement can take hold and eventually be a substantial replacement for fossil fuels. If Govt. scientist, producers, and consumers proceed responsibly the biofuel movement will take humanity in a more sustainable and sane direction.

No biofuels will never even come close to being a substanteal replacement for fossil fuels. Most of the biofuels produced in north america require more fossil fuel energy to produce than energy that they yield. The only thing that ethanol is accomplishing is raising the price of corn.

"Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives."
A. Sachs

[nerdgirl 0]

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No biofuels will never even come close to being a substanteal replacement for fossil fuels. Most of the biofuels produced in north america require more fossil fuel energy to produce than energy that they yield. The only thing that ethanol is accomplishing is raising the price of corn.

If we assume that no technical progress will be made to improve efficiency, from a domestic security and North American energy independence perspectives is what you described an overall negative scenario?

What will be the impact of rising domestic corn prices in a market economy? Particularly on farm subsidies and trade? There's A LOT of open land in Nebraska & Alberta. BP (once British Petroleum, now 'Beyond Petroleum') began investing in biofuels 5+ years ago.

What if instead of corn-based biofuels, one looks to sugar beets or canola? How does that impact the energy burden, notwithstanding technical improvements in biofuel use?

Does anyone have good, comparable estimates on the overall energy burden associated with extracting, transfering, and refining fossil fuels from Middle East or FSU-stans?

OTOH, if tar sand and shale oil can be extracted efficiently from Alberta (as well as the US Rockies), the biofuels issue will be pushed off another 25-50 years.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Gawain 0]

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anyway, the problem is not as simple as "too many people"

Sure it is. If the worlds population were a fraction of the size it is now, you could burn as much fossil fuel as you wanted and it wouldn't make a dent in the atmospheric concentration of CO2 because the carbon sinks could handle it. There wouldn't be the problems of deforestation to clear farm land because it wouldn't be needed. The whole green agenda is fueled by the fact that natural resources can't cope with the demand they are being put under. Remove some of the demand and the strain is releived. Fookin simple really.

One line of logic could then say that one way to alleviate that, is to increase speed limits, and expand infrastructure by a major factor to decrease automobile density per square mile. Faster moving vehicles increases space between vehicle, and dilutes the exhaust over any given measurement.

The green movement money, control and socialism. Just ask VP Gore as he's getting off his private jet writing checks to his own company that buys useless carbon credits...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[johndh1 0]

There is a guy up the road from me who deals in used (pre-1990) Mercedes-Benzes and parts. He runs the waste oil from a local steak-and-fries restaurant in several of his personal cars which were manufactured diesel (the bigger, long-wheelbase body styles), and they all have at around 350,000 miles or more.
They run well, and are very definitely reliable, as expected, BUT, the thought of getting behind he or his wife in those cars driving across the bridge into town for several miles (the only road) for closer than at least 2 miles repulses me. The smell is so nauseating, and not one I think I could ever get used to, like bananas or cat shit.

I like what one of my best friends did - he traded his 2005 Honda Element (Thank God) for a new 2006 Hummer H3 last year. I almost passed out when he told me he had traded his 2004 Wrangler for the Element.

Driving 40 miles to work one-way was very taxing on the Hummer, as you can imagine, so he bought a used 2001 Diesel Jetta. This car had 169,000 miles on it, and runs like anything new, everything about the trim is solid, the doors close like a vault, and it gets 42mpg. If he drives the car just back-and-forth to work 75% of the time, the fuel savings along will pay for the car in a year and two months ($7,000).

Roll Tide Roll

[Coreece 190]

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Everything comes at a price, eh?

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The annual production of antiprotons at CERN was several picograms at a cost of $20 million. This means to produce 1 gram of antimatter, CERN would need to spend 100 quadrillion dollars and run the antimatter factory for 100 billion years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter

We're almost there....

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Royd 0]

How would you propose that we solve this problem of too many people?

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The only way you can do it. Through birth control, education programs and tax breaks. It'll never happen though.

I know, I know, ask me. We could let the Catholic Church refuse to tell everyone to use a rubber, and everyone would die of AIDS.

[vortexring 0]

What an excellent topic to bring up.

The Sarawak government's irresponsibiltiy is an outrage. Not just for the native Penan people who're facing the destruction of their natural environment, but for all of us.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Misternatural 0]

<
Most of the machinery used is diesel powered- Tractors and Semi trucks are diesel powered, they can run on biodiesel, which closes that loop, lubricants can be made out of plant oils. Now- if you are talking about fertilizer production, yes that is petroleum intensive but there are ways to fertilize crops using waste material such as processed sludge- another problem solved.

<
True story- ethanol production greatly increases the cost of corn, a principal feed crop for all meat and farmed fish products. it is a bad idea to pit fuel production against food production- guess who looses- the poor.

Thats why I make biodiesel, though biodiesel requires ethanol or methanol to esterify the raw oil it is only 25% of the ingredients used.
Also I am looking into ethanol production using Jerusalem artichokes and other non food staples.

All these problems have practical solutions.

Where's jumpinfarmer, I'm sure he has some good info on all this.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[Misternatural 0]

<
Yes- right now canola is the crop with the most potential, it has one of the highest oil yields per acre and does not greatly impact food prices. Sugar beets are another good one for ethanol. Additionally biodiesel scientists are exploring oil extracted from algae which can be grown using wastewater, Hemp is another alternative, also being explored is the potential for cracking cellulose to make fuel... very promising, I'm sure you've heard GWBush talk about switchgrass.

If you think about it, petroleum is actually just modified plant products or concentrated ambient solar energy- we're just skipping the underground by millions of years step through technology.

let's just say all of the eco energy freaks from the 70's are no longer just cooking this stuff up in the back yard, they're going mainstream and it's catching on.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415