What would you have done?

[Bill_K 0]

Here is my question and what I did, I would like to hear what others might have done or how you might have reacted if you had been in my shoes.

On Saturday the winds were up, I think somebody said 15-20 Knots. Mostly steady but with some gusts as well.

With that back ground here is what happened. I came in on a normal landing, made a good stand up landing. With all the wind my canopy stayed inflated and as started pulling my right brake line down to collapse it while at the same time trying to turn and run down wind it pulled me onto my face. It happened so fast that I was stunned. I kept pulling the right brake line until it stopped. That got one side down, then as I started pulling the left brake line once it got more or less even with the right one the whole thing re-inflated and I was being drug along again.

When this all started I was a good 25-30 feet off to the side of the runway in the grass. At the same moment that I decided to cut it away I saw the jump plane on very short final and was afraid that if I did it might end up on the runway and might cause an accident; also I needed to release my RSL first, which is what I was doing with my right hand when I spotted the plane. So instead, I grabbed my lines on the right side and started pulling like hell until I got a corner of the canopy and I was then able to start pulling it under my body until I was on top of it. At the same time this was all happening the pilot was very heads up and did a go around.

Looking back on it, one thing that I should have done and did do on the next jump was have the RSL released much sooner (I did this while setting up my next pattern. I.e. once I knew I had a good canopy over head). Second is I should have cut it the instant that it started to drag me. I understand now that it would have collapsed without my weight to act as a kite anchor.

Anyway, I'm thankful for having learned the lesson and was wondering if any others have had this sort of thing happen and if so what you would have or did do? By the way on the same load 3 other jumpers got drug too, I just happened to be the closest to the runway due to where I ended up in the landing pattern. In then end, I learned a valuable lesson and was unhurt and went right back up 2 loads later and the next landing was fine with no issues.

[Tonto 1]

Firstly, not jumping in conditions you can't handle is the right answer. The fact that you got drug all over the place means that you couldn't handle it. Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.

Having said that, dropping one toggle and pulling in the other one has always worked for me, but you need to do it, not play like you're doing it. If the wind is so strong that it continues to drive the now inverted canopy further downwind, I step on the PC and tightrope down the bridle to the attachement point, then gather the canopy.

Wrestling a canopy is just stupid. It stops a terminal freefall in a couple of seconds. No one has the strength to wrestle a canopy that has no desire to be wrestled.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Bill_K 0]

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Firstly, not jumping in conditions you can't handle is the right answer. The fact that you got drug all over the place means that you couldn't handle it.

Well considering this was my 3rd jump of the day in the same winds; I don't think the right answer was to just not be jumping. I think this was a fluke gust and based on the fact that some other very experienced jumpers (2000+ jumps) were also caught off guard and drug means it was very sudden and unexpected. I was in the process of doing everything I've been trained and coached to do when I got hit. I had dropped one toggle and was pulling the other in while trying to get down wind, I had no sooner turned then I got slammed to the ground.

Trust me when I say that I'm very safety minded and try to learn from everything as I want to do this for many, many years to come. If I had felt the winds were to much I would have been watching from the side lines and have many, many times.

[Peej 0]

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Firstly, not jumping in conditions you can't handle is the right answer. The fact that you got drug all over the place means that you couldn't handle it.

Well considering this was my 3rd jump of the day in the same winds; I don't think the right answer was to just not be jumping. I think this was a fluke gust...

I currently jump a 129sqf canopy. A 109 would be too much for me to handle, but that's not to say i couldn't get it to the ground safely on two occasions the day i started jumping it before it bites me on the third try...

I'd go back and read Tonto's post again, i almost guarantee that with roughly 4920 more skydives and landings than you, it's the right info.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[Bill_K 0]

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Firstly, not jumping in conditions you can't handle is the right answer. The fact that you got drug all over the place means that you couldn't handle it.

Well considering this was my 3rd jump of the day in the same winds; I don't think the right answer was to just not be jumping. I think this was a fluke gust...

I currently jump a 129sqf canopy. A 109 would be too much for me to handle, but that's not to say i couldn't get it to the ground safely on two occasions the day i started jumping it before it bites me on the third try...

I'd go back and read Tonto's post again, i almost guarantee that with roughly 4920 more skydives and landings than you, it's the right info.

I agree. At the same time if every time the wind blows more than 5 knots I never jump, I'll never learn either... right?

[Bill_K 0]

As a quick follow up, my rule of thumb has been, if it's to windy for the AFF's to go, then it's to windy for me. AFF level 4's and higher were jumping all day in the same winds. As a matter of fact I had just spent a considerable amout of time with an S+TA doing my B test and going over EP's, etc. He and I had talked about winds, landing patterns, etc. Everybody felt that the conditions were ok. They were fine when we took off and myself and others on that same load had no idea that we would get a gust at landing.

I think many times it's easy to just point to low jump numbers and just say, well you just should not have been jumping. There was nothing in my mind that gave me pause to think I was in over my head. I think this was a freak thing with the gust.

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[wmw999 2,141]

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I kept pulling the right brake line until it stopped. That got one side down, then as I started pulling the left brake line once it got more or less even with the right one the whole thing re-inflated and I was being drug along again.

Your mistake was pulling the second brake line down. When you come in from a landing where you had to collapse your canopy because of winds, you just have to expect it to be a mess. Because the best way to control it is to keep one brake line fully pulled in and the other one fully out.

Gather the canopy up starting at the side rather than all together, and make sure that you have most of the open fronts of the cells trapped. Otherwise they'll begin to inflate.

It's only a good landing if you control the whole thing, not just the initial touchdown.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jakee 1,257]

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I kept pulling the right brake line until it stopped. That got one side down, then as I started pulling the left brake line once it got more or less even with the right one the whole thing re-inflated and I was being drug along again.

I'm curious, once you'd collapsed the canopy by pulling one brake line, why did you then start pulling the other one instead of just gathering up the canopy?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Bill_K 0]

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I kept pulling the right brake line until it stopped. That got one side down, then as I started pulling the left brake line once it got more or less even with the right one the whole thing re-inflated and I was being drug along again.

I'm curious, once you'd collapsed the canopy by pulling one brake line, why did you then start pulling the other one instead of just gathering up the canopy?

You know, I'm not sure what I was thinking (other than oh shit here comes the plane ). That's the honest truth, in looking back, I wish that I had just kept pulling the lines in after I got the brake line to the stop and left the other toggle alone as I think it would have saved a lot of the mess from happening like Wendy said.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Id listen to the ones on here about the conditions. You state your safety minded yet you state

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I think somebody said 15-20 Knots

Which means .....

You dont know what the wind was for yourself, at my jump numbers (104) there is a HUGE difference between 15 knots and 20. Theres also a huge difference between 15 knots of steady to 15 knots with gusts. Your refrence on it being okay to jump was the ones with 2000 jumps, we cant compare in anyway to those numbers. There should be a wind sock at your DZ somewhere that you yourself should be able to look at and know the winds.

I cant advise on anything other then know your weather conditions for yourself because when it comes down to it, the person who "thinks" its 15 to 20 knots could be wrong. At 50 jumps we shouldnt be jumping in 23 mph winds with gusts. Sometimes its better to just stay on the ground and be humble.

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In then end, I learned a valuable lesson and was unhurt

Good, but you wont always have that if you continue to jump out of your element.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[Reginald 0]

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On Saturday the winds were up, I think somebody said 15-20

In conditions that are marginal you should KNOW what the winds are not “think”.

20 knots is about 23 MPH, well above limits for any AFF, so I wonder why AFF were still jumping. And 23 is above what I would recommend a person with 50 jumps be out in.

Were these winds the average or the high gusts? You really should have known. If these were the average (which is unfortunately how some people like to quote them) with gusts above this the winds were way too high for you to be jumping in the first place. So everything that follows, you getting dragged, is to be expected.

I know you said you talked to other people that thought it was okay. But you are a licensed skydiver and you need to make calls for yourself too. You got yourself in a bad situation. It is always okay to be more conservative than people recommend.

Many recently licensed skydivers (myself included back in the day) jump in marginal winds because they want the jumps. It takes a few bad situations like this to make one say “no” on a marginal wind day. You might be okay 2 out of 3 times or even 9 out of 10 but those are not good odds at all. I guess my risk of a minor injury like a broken ankle are maybe 1 in 1,000 or 2,000 on a average jump. Jumping in marginal winds moves that to maybe 1 in 50ish. These are just wild guesses on the numbers but winds add a LOT of risk. I have maybe 10 friends that broke ankles, etc on days with winds that were marginal.

The more jumps I get the lower my wind limits go. If the winds were 23MPH with higher gusts there is no way I’d be in the air.

I know you weren’t asking for advice on winds but it may be the root cause of this near incident.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[Bill_K 0]

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Id listen to the ones on here about the conditions. You state your safety minded yet you state

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I think somebody said 15-20 Knots

Which means .....

You dont know what the wind was for yourself

The winds were:
47 out of 290 at 15k
35 out of 280 at 10k
27 ouf of 280 at 5k
15 and steady on the ground during the briefing and on the weather board... I knew what the winds were!

My comment above was based on what I gathered/learned afterward while asking others trying to determine what had changed. I.e. trying to learn. If the weather board had said 20, I would have been enjoying a coke and chatting, I trusted manifest and the pilot and did not go get my own weather briefing from FIZDO. However I should not have to get briefing between every jump all day either.

[mangledspoon 0]

I didn't look what country you are from, but in Aus (APF), A licence & students are not allowed to jump with 15 knots or more wind, B licence 20 knots, etc, so I wonder why you were even allowed?
I like these limits at the moment as I myself have my A licence, so I'm not hugely confident yet with stronger winds... which makes me wonder why you are confident... 50 jumps isn't much canopy experience.
But anyway, in my situation, I would have just pulled the toggle in as far as it would go, then start gathering canopy.

[Tonto 1]

I'm not trying to be difficult. I do struggle with people who ask for advice and then choose to ignore answers until they get the one they already like.

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I had dropped one toggle and was pulling the other in while trying to get down wind,

There is no point in pulling in one to create asymetry, and then pulling in the other.

Why were you trying to get down wind? You know the wind is 23+ mph. (20 kts) Can you run at 23+ mph with a rig on your back? You must know how easy it is to get pulled onto your face when you're running as fast as you can and the wind is faster.

Land. Turn. Drop one, pull the other in. You need to be the anchor for the now collapsed canopy. If you give it slack, it will take it and use it against you.

"Running around the canopy" worked on round canopies, but they were seldom jumped in the conditions you were in when this event occured.

As for being able to handle it, "fluke gust" etc, if that's all true, why are you asking what you could have done differently? If people with 2000+ jumps were also drug about, it was too much for them too. The ground, wind etc don't care about your jump numbers. If it were a "fluke" then you're just a victim, and there is no changing that.

The only way to deal with this is to

1)accept that you could not deal with the situation and
a) Set out to gather the skills you need, or
b) Set out to gain the judgement required not to find yourself in a situation where your skills are overwhelmed.

or

2)accept that there are just flukes that will compromise you every now and then.

"Murphy is always looking for the low guy."

When faced with a choice of great skill or great judgement, choose judgement. If you have the judgement, you'll never need the great skills.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Bill_K 0]

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I'm not trying to be difficult. I do struggle with people who ask for advice and then choose to ignore answers until they get the one they already like.

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I had dropped one toggle and was pulling the other in while trying to get down wind,

Why were you trying to get down wind? You know the wind is 20+ mph. Can you run at 20+ mph with a rig on your back? You must know how easy it is to get pulled onto your face when you're running as fast as you can and the wind is faster.

Land. Turn. Drop one, pull the other in. You need to be the anchor for the now collapsed canopy. If you give it slack, it will take it and use it against you.

"Running around the canopy" worked on round canopies, but they were seldom jumped in the conditions you were in when this event occured.

As for being able to handle it, "fluke gust" etc, if that's all true, why are you asking what you could have done differently? If people with 2000+ jumps were also drug about, it was too much for them too. The ground, wind etc don't care about your jump numbers. If it were a "fluke" then you're just a victim, and there is no changing that.

The only way to deal with this is to

1)accept that you could not deal with the situation and
a) Set out to gather the skills you need, or
b) Set out to gain the judgement required not to find yourself in a situation where your skills are overwhelmed.

or

2)accept that there are just flukes that will compromise you every now and then.

"Murphy is always looking for the low guy."

When faced with a choice of great skill or great judgement, choose judgement. If you have the judgement, you'll never need the great skills.

t

Thanks T, I'm not sure I ever got to the point of trying to run downwind. I just know I had been coached and taught that at some point. I was on the ground to fast. I'm learning from all the answers here and I'm not 'looking' for one that I like or don't like. At least that's not my intent. The part that scared me more than anything was looking up and seeing the plane on short final. Something about those things that spin out front...

As for being in a situation that I could not handle, yep, I think that's pretty clear based on the outcome. As for learning from it though, I'm trying, and will.

Thanks all for the great advice, please don't think that I'm trying to be difficult either as that's not my intent at all.

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[Tonto 1]

As long as we're learning it's all good. I recall being a student and having people who never made mistakes telling me all about mine. That really upset me.

A couple of threads below yours is Ron's "Stupid things I have done" thread. You can read a small sampling of the stupid things I have done there. If it were not for those mistakes I would not have the insight I have now. I was simply lucky to survive then, and I'm a lot more cautious now.

Yesterday, after 4 nice AFF L1's, there was a bit of turbulence developing. I stood down while others continued to jump. (If there is no point in me swooping the gates, there is no point in me jumping, and my AFF stays safe.) About and hour and a bit later, a 600ft dust devil came through over our new (yet to be filled) swoop pond while the plane was climbing to altitude. I've attached a pic. I could not have told anyone what was coming an hour before - but I knew enough to know I didn't want me or my students to be up there.

The sky is always there. No weather lasts longer than it takes to mend a femur.

Blue SKies,

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[jeremy_o 0]

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The only way to deal with this is to

1)accept that you could not deal with the situation and
a) Set out to gather the skills you need, or
b) Set out to gain the judgement required not to find yourself in a situation where your skills are overwhelmed.

I quickly learned my wind limits a couple of weeks ago. Ground winds at about 15-17knots. I turned for final, which was the same place on the previous 4 jumps and ended up landing 30 ft behind my turn..I guess that wind picked up while we were in the air. Good landing though Anyway, I just wanted to point out that you should always be learning and I learned that I shouldn't be jumping in 15+ wind especially if gusty.

http://planetskydive.net/ - An online aggregation of skydiver's blogs.

[jeannier 0]

Bill was probably still walking in from the landing area when an announcement was made by the pilot when he got back into the hangar. He said "winds are steady at 11, gusting to 18, use your own judgement whether you think you should be jumping or not". They did ground AFF for a few loads after this load landed, then resumed when the winds were considered acceptable.

The numbers on the board are the same as those on skydivingweather.com and usairnet.com, both of which use MPH, not KPH. I've checked those sites at home and checked the board when we arrived at the dz. and the numbers have been the same, so far.

[Bill_K 0]

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Bill was probably still walking in from the landing area when an announcement was made by the pilot when he got back into the hangar. He said "winds are steady at 11, gusting to 18, use your own judgement whether you think you should be jumping or not". They did ground AFF for a few loads after this load landed, then resumed when the winds were considered acceptable.

The numbers on the board are the same as those on skydivingweather.com and usairnet.com, both of which use MPH, not KPH. I've checked those sites at home and checked the board when we arrived at the dz. and the numbers have been the same, so far.

Thx, I guess that would explain part of it...
Was I even up from balling up my mess yet when the word went out?
In any case, I sat out the next 3 loads I think it was.

[billvon 2,421]

A note about this -

If you are getting dragged towards something that will hurt you (like a runway or a highway) I'd recommend cutting away. Don't worry about disconnecting your RSL. If you leave it attached, the reserve PC will launch, but unless you're jumping in a category-2 hurricane the reserve will not deploy.

The result will be an expensive jump (i.e. you will need a repack) but still be much cheaper than the hospital bill you'd incur by getting hit by a car (or an airplane!)

[Bill_K 0]

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A note about this -

If you are getting dragged towards something that will hurt you (like a runway or a highway) I'd recommend cutting away. Don't worry about disconnecting your RSL. If you leave it attached, the reserve PC will launch, but unless you're jumping in a category-2 hurricane the reserve will not deploy.

The result will be an expensive jump (i.e. you will need a repack) but still be much cheaper than the hospital bill you'd incur by getting hit by a car (or an airplane!)

Hey Bill,

I was actually more worried about the damage to the plane and pilot to be frank. I was afraid that if I cut it that it would end up in his line of flight and possibly cause a major incident. It was not until afterward that somebody told me that when you cut away the main would go limp and just fall to the ground because my weight was not there to hold it inflated.

BK

[tuffyjensen 0]

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If you leave it attached, the reserve PC will launch, but unless you're jumping in a category-2 hurricane the reserve will not deploy.

Thanks Bill, I was waiting to see how long it would take for someone to recognize that. My understanding is that it takes 60mph+ for a PC to do it's job (damn sure better not be jumping). Many people have that fear of the RSL not being disconnected and waste what could be valuable time to take care of the situation. As for posted winds, at most DZ's I've seen it is a forecast only and not actuals that are continually being updated. I recommend every DZ have a wind meter available for any jumper to walk up and look at it and check the peak gusts over the last X amount of time (only 100-200 USD, very cheap safety insurance)

Be Safe and have Fun in that order.

Be Safe and Have Fun, in that order!
Tuffy

[billvon 2,421]

>I was afraid that if I cut it that it would end up in his line of flight
>and possibly cause a major incident.

That's possible, but keep in mind:

1) You hitting the plane will likely damage it a lot more than the parachute hitting the plane

2) if it's that windy, the cutaway parachute will likely cross the runway quite quickly.

All in all, of course, it's preferable to control the parachute without cutting it away - which it sounds like you accomplished.

[fcajump 153]

Bill,

I agree with most of what has been said here...

The wind board is forcast and actuals from some time past. Keep aware of changes. Stand down when questionable.

Each of us has found ourselves in conditions more than expected, therefore...
1. collapse (ONE toggle until holding canopy, then gather under you until all in).
2. cut-away if necessary, but rare.
2b. if time/situation permits, disconnect RSL before cutaway, but even rarer.
3. under canopy, watch others for indications of increased/changing conditions. Adjust. AVOID down wind of anything that will make the air turbulant.

BTW - early on someone pointed out the best indicator of weather conditions... I was gearing up for a windy load. He took me asside and asked who else was jumping... All those gearing up had A,B or C license... He asked where the D's were. I pointed them out as the folks NOT jumping... He then asked the question "why do you think those with the MOST experience are NOT jumping in these winds?" I learned alot from that question... while sitting on the ground watching "my load" backin up under canopy...

Question, learn, live...
You've done #1.
Good luck on #'s 2 and 3.

Jim

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[Bill_K 0]

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Bill,

I agree with most of what has been said here...

The wind board is forcast and actuals from some time past. Keep aware of changes. Stand down when questionable.

Each of us has found ourselves in conditions more than expected, therefore...
1. collapse (ONE toggle until holding canopy, then gather under you until all in).
2. cut-away if necessary, but rare.
2b. if time/situation permits, disconnect RSL before cutaway, but even rarer.
3. under canopy, watch others for indications of increased/changing conditions. Adjust. AVOID down wind of anything that will make the air turbulant.

BTW - early on someone pointed out the best indicator of weather conditions... I was gearing up for a windy load. He took me asside and asked who else was jumping... All those gearing up had A,B or C license... He asked where the D's were. I pointed them out as the folks NOT jumping... He then asked the question "why do you think those with the MOST experience are NOT jumping in these winds?" I learned alot from that question... while sitting on the ground watching "my load" backin up under canopy...

Question, learn, live...
You've done #1.
Good luck on #'s 2 and 3.

Jim

I like your wind/condition indicator Jim.
I was actually on a 5 way the load that this happened with two guys who were both D's. I'm pretty sure the tandem's and AFF's where with D's as well, so we had a few on that load.
Anyway we had been working on my fall rate control and me flying my slot, trying to get me to relax more and just be in my place. I tell you what there are some really, really great people in this sport that will take time out to help and teach. That said, I generally do error on the side of caution and sitting it out is not un-common for me. Many a day I've sat and driven senior jumpers nuts with questions.
I'm the guy that showed up for AFF level one with a 2006 SIM and two other books on skydiving already in hand if that gives you any indication.
Thanks again for all the kind words and great advice by all. The poll in interesting too.