Remster 24 #26 September 8, 2007 I think we're talking stars.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #28 September 8, 2007 Quote Who pizzed in your wheaties this morning. Some people like that! But not me, I don't know why thinking about it kinda arouses me, BUT NOT ME!Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #29 September 9, 2007 QuoteWhile the major dropzones continue to entertain the hard core team jumpers i.e., Deland etc. dozens of smaller DZ's on which the majority of people in this sport depend have turned almost totally to the profit making operation of tandems to the detriment of fun jumpers on their way up to hard core. How's that for a good argument? Now that is a better statement than your original post and the other two threads I mentioned. The problem I have isn't what what you say doesn't have merit or a grain of truth to it, but that it comes across as whining by the older skydivers (to which I consider myself a part of of. (I'm almost 53) I don't want my generation (boomers) to be seen as a bunch of whiners that sit around and complain about entitlement generations and tandem factories. I'd prefer us to do something far more positive about it than whining on a forum thread. if we can't "do" anything about it but whine, I'd say let's shut up. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #30 September 9, 2007 QuoteWhile the major dropzones continue to entertain the hard core team jumpers i.e., Deland etc. dozens of smaller DZ's on which the majority of people in this sport depend have turned almost totally to the profit making operation of tandems to the detriment of fun jumpers on their way up to hard core. How's that for a good argument? Maybe you just go to the wrong DZ. I jump at a major DZ that isn't overwhelmed by teams or tandems (although it has both). Fun jumpers have no trouble at all getting on a load, high quality free coaching and load organizing is available...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hymandd732 0 #31 September 9, 2007 Freefall Hall Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #32 September 9, 2007 Quote In all sincerity I must disclose skydiving's downfall as a sport and emergence as a profit making industry. Dropzones are little more than tandem factories at the present time. I never cared if a DZ was a tandem factory as long as I could still jump there. Outside of a few DZ's that refused fun jumpers I've never seen how allowing the DZ to pay its bills was a bad thing. As Kallend said, teams and tandems never got in the way of me jumping at my home DZ. Nor did it ever get in the way of my jumping in my travels. That being said, is it me or is there a massive drop off of 4-way teams at Nationals this year from previous years? I remember the last time it was at SDC there were over 40 teams in the low end bracket._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hymandd732 0 #33 September 9, 2007 Perhaps you should learn the difference between constructive criticism and "whining" Did you graduate from high school? If not go for a GEDFreefall Hall Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hymandd732 0 #34 September 9, 2007 Good for you.Freefall Hall Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #35 September 9, 2007 Quote Good for you. Yes, it isAnd I forgot to mention - it has flush toilets too... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hymandd732 0 #36 September 9, 2007 Well, we now know about your DZ but how about the hundreds of others that have morphed into tandem factories.Freefall Hall Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,255 #37 September 9, 2007 QuotePerhaps you should learn the difference between constructive criticism and "whining" No, I think you should. Here's a hint, constructive criticism generally involves suggesting a way of making things better. Have you?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #38 September 9, 2007 QuoteWell, we now know about your DZ but how about the hundreds of others that have morphed into tandem factories. Pretend they don't exist, they are now outside your universe. Give your business to the DZs that provide what you want.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #39 September 9, 2007 QuoteGive your business to the DZs that provide what you want. Best advice of the thread Let the Tandem Factories pretend they are family dropzones etc.. but when they no longer can find staff because of thier policies that have driven away anyone with experience.. then they will find that all that greed has bitten them in the ass. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #40 September 10, 2007 Quote Perhaps you should learn the difference between constructive criticism and "whining" Did you graduate from high school? If not go for a GED I have a few advanced degrees. I simply don't like it when people whine. When guys my age whine it embarasses me. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #41 September 10, 2007 QuoteThe only Bay Area tandem factory is suffering. Which is that? Cloverdale is NOT suffering, but growing. There is even a King Air parked that we hope gets used someday. They have 10 tandems scheduled for Monday, so I'm heading up there tomorrow to get in a jump or two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #42 September 10, 2007 tom....... much of your worry, must come from the fact that you have been a skydiver for so long...by that i mean, you CAN remember the days BEFORE tandem came along...( and NOT everyone can say that)and so, it's easy to jump ( no pun intended) to the hasty conclusion that tandems are bad... sorry to have to disagree with you pal... but GONE are the days of the 60's and 70's when lifts were cheap, fuel was plentiful and less costly, and DZO's could make more money tossing out 10 or 15 Static lines at 3 grand,,,than they can today..... ( remember the days at Sen Falls, when Howie could put out a whole Beaver Load of 10 static lines, in about 15 minutes?????) THAT allowed all the RW types to get the plane, and go to the screamingly high altitude of 8,500 feet,,, for the rest of the day...Not the same Now.... sorry, but times change... Tandem has allowed lots more people to safely experience a REAL skydive, with freefall,,,, and You,, Freefall Hall, should be HAPPY about that..... If that student program allows a DZO to pay his bills,,, and keep ahead of the pace... you shouldn't gripe about it..... Most places around here,,, that I know about certainly DO try their best to accomodate the old crowd, the fun jumpers from the past, and present and hopefully, future... hell many of the DZO's around your/our area, are Long time fun jumpers themselves... Your job,,, should you choose to accept it, is to GET to the DZ more frequently, stay current and join those who are looking for some fun skydives, mingle with, and congratulate those tandem students, who are just as entitled to a spot on the jump plane, as any of us are...One of them could be a person with whom you can someday skydive, and maybe share some of Your saavy and wisdom.... It's not like it was back then.....but it's NOT all doom and gloom, as you seem to feel... I know you , and Know that you're NOT a whiner,,, as some here have painted you.... but rather a nostalgic pioneer from decades ago,, still yearning for the olden days, of Accuracy meets, and get-togethers, of Spontaneous 4 way meets, which would generate 8 or 10 teams, with the snap of our fingers, and hell,,, even of the occasional 8 way meets, generating much of the same interest.....It's a new time... and as 'dinosaurs' of the sport, we need to try to find the good, and not the bad... Join in on the inevitable, go to the dz anyway,,, pleased that you'll see the happy faces of first jumpers,,,, shake their hands and offer them kind words,,,,, ask the DZO if there's any way you can pitch in... That's one of the reasons I started shooting video.. to help out... and keep pace with the changes...( certainly NOT to "make money" ) I bet there is not a DZ in the country,,, who would turn you away if you offered to Pack Tandems for them.... hell that would make you the most important person on the airport... Good Luck.. and.... as always, My best to Pat. jimmy from rochester Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hymandd732 0 #43 September 10, 2007 Jim, I couldn't have said it better myself. Certainly DZO's have to survive and that is where the rubber meets the road. Without a doubt tandems are here to stay and Super King Airs and Twin Otters have made huge contributions to the sport raising it to a new level. Perhaps these big birds would not be possible without the income generated by the tandem operations so we will find a way to co-exist. In the meantime I am off to the Ranch at Gardiner to make my birthday jump (81) Last year I made it at Cross Keys. The day before my jump, September 11th a tandem pair became mortalities. Into each life some rain must fall.Freefall Hall Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #44 September 10, 2007 Quote Quote In all sincerity I must disclose skydiving's downfall as a sport and emergence as a profit making industry. Dropzones are little more than tandem factories at the present time. SKydiving has, in your opinion, experienced a downfall. Was the pun intended? ALL sports have profit as a motive. ALL of them. When you get to the upper levels, PROFIT dominates. If a DZO couldn't make any money, do you think a DZO would stay a DZO? Nope. How many people nowadays are satisfied with a 182? The modern skydiver demands aircraft that can get to altitude quickly, thus to make more jumps during the time they have available. How many want covered packing areas? Video rooms? Gear stores? tHE FIRST 6-way star was 1964. By 1973, it was a 27-way. And a 32-way by 1975. In 1995, the 62-way took a record, with a 100 way in 1997. Yes, things change. It was not a huge stress to get some beat up plane, some old ratty canopy held together with duct tape to cover the holes from a cow chewing it being trained by some dude with 6 jumps to his name. (Ask bill booth about this). So, when you've got demands for alternate landing areas, swoop ponds, turbine aircraft, etc., the costs tend to increase. Tandem factories? They serve a legitimate purpose. Sport jumpers go elsewhere and THOSE places serve a purpose. It aint' the good old days. But it also ain't the "bad new days." They are just different, as is everything. Absolutely agreed. Without the tandems, we'd have no all-summer Otter. Mind you, I don't mind riding the Cessna or Beaver at times; but the speediness of the Otter is my preference. And the tandem traffic seems to be a necessity to the DZ's longer term financial viability. It appears they are now an integral part to keeping us all jumping in the manner and with the frequency we love." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hymandd732 0 #45 September 10, 2007 You know Jim, it is difficult to explain how when hundreds of thousands of people show up for the tandem jump the USPA is declining in membership. Well, the tandems sure put a crimp in bungee jumping. Freefall Hall Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #46 September 10, 2007 Quote You know Jim, it is difficult to explain how when hundreds of thousands of people show up for the tandem jump the USPA is declining in membership. Well, the tandems sure put a crimp in bungee jumping. You are preoccupied by a single variable in an equation that has a multitude of variables. There are many more places people can put their discretionary time and money than there were 40 years ago.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #47 September 12, 2007 QuoteWhat is it with all this whining from skydiving's senior citizens? Seriously, it's YOUR peers and contemporaries that established the huge DZ's that pull a ton of tandems. All other DZ's have no choice but to put tandems first or else not fly."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #48 September 12, 2007 Quote Quote What is it with all this whining from skydiving's senior citizens? Seriously, it's YOUR peers and contemporaries that established the huge DZ's that pull a ton of tandems. All other DZ's have no choice but to put tandems first or else not fly. Well, it appears whining is not any one particular generation's habit. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 197 #49 September 12, 2007 Many great things have happened to skydiving in my 20+ years. I think the original poster may have been referring to the downward trend in USPA membership. I lay that partly in the hands of Tandem, and the USPA itself. For a long time the USPA got it in its fool head to try to make skydiving "mainstream". Actually tried to make folks think it was safe. Be careful what you wish for...Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #50 September 12, 2007 QuoteMany great things have happened to skydiving in my 20+ years. I think the original poster may have been referring to the downward trend in USPA membership. I lay that partly in the hands of Tandem, and the USPA itself. For a long time the USPA got it in its fool head to try to make skydiving "mainstream". Actually tried to make folks think it was safe. Be careful what you wish for... USPA membership is up from 1987 levels. It is down from 2001 levels.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites