Union Reps in Front of the Local Grocery Store

[ACMESkydiver 0]

...pouncing on everyone as they walk out the doors. "Sign these letters to Kroger Management to show support for all of these employees to earn a living wage."

"What's a 'living wage'?"

.

"Ma'am! MA'AM! Don't you think these employees deserve better?"

"Better than what?"



I simply looked at their information, handed it back, and said, "I don't believe in unions."

Now that isn't entirely true...but it bothers me to some extent that unions main reason for existing, in the new millenium, is to forward unions.

Further, I know I'll be flamed for this, but what in the hell makes someone believe that anyone should have to pay them more than the job is worth?

I'll tell you who...employees. Any business owners here? I tell ya what...anyone with KIDS here? What do you think about paying your babysitter a 'living wage'? Edit to add: if we knew what a living wage was...apparently greater than $21/hour.

I bet nobody here is still in the first job they took. I worked in fast food as a kid...then telesales, on and on. Those jobs were adequate for what I needed, however when my family/needs expanded, holy shit I went out and got a new job.

Further, let's take a look at another situation. 'Jeff' and 'Jack' are both working for a warehouse in downtown Seattle, mid shift. They've both been there for 3 years. They both pay union dues.

Jeff takes uppers on his lunch break (because XYZ has made it CLEAR that they do not care what their workers do on 'their time' -translation, don't get caught on premises), and spends most of the shift walking around the warehouse, flirting with the women in receiving. He processes about $1000 worth of inventory per night, accept when someone important is watching...

Jack stays to task and processes about $50,000 of inventory per shift. He's an average, nose-to-the-grind stone worker.

Company XYZ can't afford both Jeff and Jack any more because for some reason, they just aren't in-processing enough inventory to turn full profit for their business model (can you guess why?) XYZ has to make some cut backs..but they're worried about the union laborers.

The union steps in for this, and negotiates a wage cut to 3/4 for both employees. They both go back to work...Jeff is still deadweight, Jack is still spot-on, but their supervisor isn't going to let Jeff go because of his contract.

Hmmm...

Anyhow, it isn't exactly a hypothetical. I worked for that company, I saw it happen.

Go ahead and tell me how big and bad corporations are because of their tax breaks, on and on, and then check out those horrible corporations that 'got what they deserved' and went out of business. That'll show 'em! Those hundreds of families are better off without those jobs, thank you. ?

Small business owners, what do you think about this?

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[ryoder 1,406]

Go to Stephen Colberts website and find the video of his commentary a few days ago about the news a union is hiring homeless people to do their picketing for them. That's right, a union is hiring non-union people. You'll love it.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

http://www.tv.com/the-colbert-report/evan-osnos/episode/1118126/summary.html

I found it!

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[mnealtx 0]

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union is hiring homeless people to do their picketing for them. That's right, a union is hiring non-union people.

Friggin hilarious, isn't it?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[shropshire 0]

They probably can 't even see the irony in it either.


Unions have their place but many have a bloated sense of their own importance.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[mnealtx 0]

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They probably can 't even see the irony in it either.


Unions have their place but many have a bloated sense of their own importance.

They probably don't, I definitely agree on that!!

To be perfectly honest, I don't see that much need for unions anymore, as a generality.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

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To be perfectly honest, I don't see that much need for unions anymore, as a generality.

Hiring is a bit stronger right now. But 2002-2004, employers knew they had all the leverage on an individual employee. Unions blunt that advantage.

As for the original question, yeah, unions probably aren't helping themselves by cajolling shoppers to support their right to a 21$/hr wage floor. And when I worked a summer at Fedco back in 1990, the Teamsters only got their employees 4.65/hr to start, and only 10 cents more after a year.

[shropshire 0]

>

Well it depends upon your location and industry.

There are still people on or below minimum wage that could benift from pooling their voices and then there are the 3rd world countries whose works are far worse offf than the marity of ours. They could do with getting together and working out that there is power in numbers.

Not all unions are power hungry, militant commies

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[rehmwa 2]

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Yep. There are a necessary result of bad management. Once they fix that, they should disband until needed later. That way they don't get an entrenched power structure that's no better than the poor management they originally formed, with good intentions, to fight.

They don't get power hungry and shiftless until later after they've served their purpose.

For bad situations, unions are absolutely necessary. For good situations, they are absolutely counterproductive for both workers and companies. I place them in the equivalent category as consultants as far as usefulness is concerned.

Lesson? If you are management, it's in your's and your employees' best interests to work with the employees to find an agreement on what's fair. If you don't, you get what you deserve and everybody will pay.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[shropshire 0]

<>

I can see the sense in that.... might not work for all cases but as a general rule of thumb , it's worth considering.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[diablopilot 2]

Most current unions have outlived their usefulness.

CNA might be an exception IMO.

Now there are some jobs that could use representation, how about Wait staff? Skydiving instructors?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ryoder 1,406]

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Most current unions have outlived their usefulness.

Agreed. They were made obsolete by labor laws.

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Now there are some jobs that could use representation, how about Wait staff? Skydiving instructors?

That would really suck to see tandem videos with an extra guy circling around the tandem holding a sign complaining about "Scab TI's".

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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>

Well it depends upon your location and industry.

There are still people on or below minimum wage that could benift from pooling their voices and then there are the 3rd world countries whose works are far worse offf than the marity of ours. They could do with getting together and working out that there is power in numbers.

Not all unions are power hungry, militant commies

-Workers in our country aren't below minimum wage; it's a federal law. -Unless they're illegals...WHOA! That's it. There should be an illegal immigrant's labor union. Washington state's fruit exports would go straight to hell.

Do they have people below whatever set minimum wage is in the UK? Who sets the 'minimum wage' & why can't they enforce it?

And I'd completely agree that unions have a place in areas of oppression...but in the US, we are hardly 'oppressed' workers. We are not required to work in one job, or even one industry. It used to be that the average US worker changed industry (or job, I don't recall which) 7 times in their lifetime.

Most of my friends and I all hit that quota by about age 17.

"Pay us enough for our high-speed internet, cable TV, and morning triple grande mocha with whip or we'll STRIKE for not having a living wage!"

LOL...

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[shropshire 0]

So, do you not think that there are anyexploited [legal] workers left in the US?

Well, I;'d hope that, that was the case, but I wouldn't put money on it.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[kelpdiver 2]

Unions are especially useful for protecting whistle blowers if they want to.

While not terribly exploited, unions are very effective for athletes. Go back to the old days where Avery Brundage could kick someone out of the Olympics because he thought they were slutty, or go back to right now where Floyd Landis is geting railroaded. (he could be guilty, but there's no doubt that every part of due process and proceedure has been violated)

[lawrocket 3]

This sort of thing shows how labor unions have got things messed up.

Labor Unions are useful when there is a scarcity of skilled labor. So when you've got workers who need a great deal of time and resources to train, the lack of these workers via collective position of the workers means that the employer cannot find suitable replacements. The bargaining power has been changed.

However, I worked at a grocery store. The job is not that difficult and does not require a great deal of skill. A person of regular skill and intelligence could learn how to bag groceries and operate the scanner fairlyu efficiently within hours or days. The market for replacement labor is there to the extent that a union strike by the UFCW would is not exactly tops on the list of powerful tools.

Unfortuantely, in matters where generally unskilled labor is involved, the free availability of scabs decreases the burden on business and a strike does nothing more that seriously strain the rank and file.

p.s. - note that unions are exempt from anti-trust laws.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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So, do you not think that there are anyexploited [legal] workers left in the US?

Well, I;'d hope that, that was the case, but I wouldn't put money on it.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that there are no exploited workers in the US...but I would say that they are few, far between, and also NOT caged and chained to their current jobs.

Company is pissing you off...find a new company.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[skymedic 0]

Jaye,

I'm a profesional firefighter/paramedic. My department runs on average 10,000 calls a year ran by 45 line personel with 15 people a shift. I work 10 to 11 24 hour shifts a month. that averages 52 hours a week. We are not eligible for overtime over 40hours like the rest of the world. A third of my life is spent at work. Nights without my wife and my daughter. I'm a union member. Do you believe that I don't have a right to bargain for safe working conditions? or the ability to take care of my family if I were to die in a fire? or the ability to take care of my family now!? What is my job worth?

Before the IAFF came around firefighters were making minimum wage and worked 15 24 hour shifts a month. Saftey and health programs were non existent. A Good union will work for both the employee and the employer. Our union does not protect bad employees but protects the working conditions of the members of our department. We even provide legeal protection for people who are NOT MEMBERS of our union that work for our department. If anyone strays from that contract they are disciplined, THAT is how a union should work.

It seems unions get knocked all the time. I'm proud to be a union member. My wife is a union member. She is an educator who attended both MIT and Washington University, has two degrees yet makes basicly mediocre wages. What is her job worth?? Obviously not very much if it were not for the NEA she's have even worse wages. The union keeps the system honest in this case.

So...what do you think a firefighter should deserve? 20,000 a year? 50,000? 100,000? Or how about a high school math teacher?

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[mnealtx 0]

Do you not get paid at all for those extra hours? I work 72 hours a week 48 weeks a year. I *do* get paid for the hours over 40 but at straight pay.

You had no insurance before the union? The union made sure you only got dispatched to 'safe' fires?

As for wages... I've got no concrete answer for that - it seems like that would be a matter for the individual cities to work out.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[AdamLanes 1]

I dislike the idea of paying a union to take away my right to negotiate my own terms of employment. I also firmly believe in performance based pay.

[sundevil777 94]

I think there should be 2 new laws regarding unions:

1) Union management should be required to get the same strike pay as any of their represented workers that are on strike.

2) Decisions on pay raises and promotions should include an evaluation of performance. Seniority should not be the only criteria.

Many years ago, the engineer's union at Boeing fought to protect a couple guys that were caught sleeping at work. They would sneak off to an out of the way location and take long naps. My friend new them and knew that it had been happening for a long time.

At the local Honda factory (non-union), many of the production jobs effectively don't even get a couple 10 minute breaks or 30 minute lunch break as required by law. This is because of the preparations needed before production restarts at the end of the break. You would think that they were union though, in that they all get paid the same regardless of the difficulty of the various jobs. Honda has thousands of temp workers (at about 1/2 the pay of the regular employees) that are required to work at least 2 years before they may be offered a regular job (I know one that worked 5 years before it was offered, and he works really hard).

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[freethefly 6]

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Honda has thousands of temp workers (at about 1/2 the pay of the regular employees) that are required to work at least 2 years before they may be offered a regular job (I know one that worked 5 years before it was offered, and he works really hard).

I just had to call an old buddy of mine whom I worked with on the railroad and ask him about this. He left the rails to go to work at the Honda plant in Marysville. I asked him about this. He says not true. He started at just above $18.00hr. He was making over $50,000 on the rails. He now makes over $24.00hr. He said they get regular breaks like everyone else. Paid vacation. Paid shutdown time in July and December. He says they are strict about being late or missing days as they should be. However, they do get bonuses for performance and for not missing work. Illness is excused. I asked him what he makes per year. He says he pulls in over $60,000. As for benefits, they have full coverage which includes dental and eye. Says it is a great place to work and that the UAW has been denied everytime they tried to organize the workers.
Even if they are bringing in temps at half the pay, $12.00hr is not to bad.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[airdvr 200]

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Jaye,

I'm a profesional firefighter/paramedic. My department runs on average 10,000 calls a year ran by 45 line personel with 15 people a shift. I work 10 to 11 24 hour shifts a month. that averages 52 hours a week. We are not eligible for overtime over 40hours like the rest of the world. A third of my life is spent at work. Nights without my wife and my daughter. I'm a union member.

Umm...is it me or does it sound like the union isn't doing much for you at all.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[sundevil777 94]

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Quote

Honda has thousands of temp workers (at about 1/2 the pay of the regular employees) that are required to work at least 2 years before they may be offered a regular job (I know one that worked 5 years before it was offered, and he works really hard).

I just had to call an old buddy of mine whom I worked with on the railroad and ask him about this. He left the rails to go to work at the Honda plant in Marysville. I asked him about this. He says not true.

I am not lying. I know exactly what I'm talking about. Everything I said is true.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[skymedic 0]

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Umm...is it me or does it sound like the union isn't doing much for you at all.

It's a federal law that we don't get OT past 40 hours.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....