I would like to tell you a bit more about God

[philh 0]

Of course Im open to the possibility that god exists. You forget I was brought up Jewish and believed quite strongy when I was younger. I would love it if there were an after life, but there is no evidence. I rejected the claims of religion becuase I realised that they were unfounded. There is no evidence for god. present the evidence and ill accept it, but so far youve presented nothing. I remember my Rabbi telling me he could prove god existed, I eagerly awaited his response and all he came up with was the lame old William Paley design argument. It was so pathetic.

"You have never studied soteriology either. It explains it quite well. But you'd rather have it in a snippit that while fits in a forum thread that doesn't do it justice. Rather it is simply compared to "fairyology" Not an intellectually honest approach. IMHO. It is the same way many fundies ignore science. "

Why should I study soteriology? What justifies such authority you vest in it? If someone says you dont understand Quanutm mechanics you should just accept it. Well i could have some sympathy with that for two reasons:
1) Physicists can rightly point to huge achievements that have been made because of understanding of quantum mechanicss. Nuclear power, the laser, polaroid sunnglasses, modern computers etc etc . alll of these arise from ou understanding of quantum mechanics. So there is some justification in investing some authority in the study of quantum mechanics.
2) Conclusion firmly drawn upon in QM are subject to very thorough testing and repeatability. Look at the LEC at CERn they are spending millions on builidng not one detector but two so that they can get independent checks on their reuslts. Following the scientific method gives conclusion credibility that no theology can ever have.

So no ignoring science is not the same as ignoring theology. Science has evidence and concrete results to back it up. Theology has no such grounds for respect and so the analogy with fariology is a legitimate one.

[steveorino 7]

I suggested you study soteriology (or whoever questioned the purpose of JC's death on the cross) because it explains it better than some simple sentence or two in skydiving forum.

I have no problem with you having little or no desire to pursue the possibility of God. I seldom try to convince atheists/agnostics of God, but usually try and spend my energy pointing out what I see are incomplete understandings of christianity, scripture and theism in general.

I wish you well, Phil!

steveOrino

[favaks 0]

I wouldn't call doctors "scientists".

[Derekbox 0]

A survey can be made to give nearly any results wanted. Purposely or not. All it takes is one biased question, one biased interviewer, poor wording, selective sampling... etc etc

What is interesting about the first survey though, is they mimiced the first survey, so at least a trend is being developed even if the numbers may be skewed.

[kallend 1,640]

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About two-thirds of scientists believe in God, according to a new survey that uncovered stark differences based on the type of research they do....

In separate work at the University of Chicago, released in June, 76 percent of doctors said they believed in God and 59 percent believe in some sort of afterlife.

"Those in the social sciences are more likely to believe in God and attend religious services than researchers in the natural sciences, the study found."

So now "social scientists" are scientists

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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So now "social scientists" are scientists

Sure, there's professionals everywhere

Engineering: Domestic Engineers
Engineering: Train Engineers
Engineering: Sanitation Engineers (and not Civil E's either)
Physics: Physical Therapists
Medicine: Doctor of Philosophy
Medicine: Doctor of Theology
Medicine: Doctor of Humanities


ad nauseum
very 'nauseum'


let's not even get into Art, Education, etc....

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NCclimber 0]

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About two-thirds of scientists believe in God, according to a new survey that uncovered stark differences based on the type of research they do....

In separate work at the University of Chicago, released in June, 76 percent of doctors said they believed in God and 59 percent believe in some sort of afterlife.

"Those in the social sciences are more likely to believe in God and attend religious services than researchers in the natural sciences, the study found."

So now "social scientists" are scientists

Okay - throwing "social scientists" out of the equation how do you account for one study saying 38% of "natural" scientists do not believe in God, while the other says 72% of "natural" scientists do not believe in God?

Or is the difference between 72% and 38% insignificant?

[beowulf 1]

Surveys are not all that reliable.

[JackC 0]

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I wonder how these studies are done.

That was in the blurb I quoted, perhaps you would like to go back and read it? You could even look up the original article, the citation was included in my post.

[br0k3n 0]

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Also, while it is fun at times to debate I realize according to scripture true atheists will never see God unless they change their world view and core belief to open themselves up for the "possibility" of God's existence. Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him

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So what happens to the millions of people that have never heard of Christianity or JC, the aboriginal people here in Australia, obscure tribes in Africa, and other nations… they just burn in hell do they??? as there never going have faith in your god as theve never heard of him, or heard of your religion.. and to not accept your god comes with a hot poker up the ass from a angry red man with horns..

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

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[stayhigh 2]

in reply to very first post of this thread..

Do you need comfort? God is the Comforter.
Do you need guidance? He sends His Holy Spirit to show us the way.
Do you need righteousness? He provided it through the blood of Jesus Christ.
Do you need wisdom? He is our wisdom. Trust Him. He will always give you what you need. Always.


so your god is male???

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[steveorino 7]

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Also, while it is fun at times to debate I realize according to scripture true atheists will never see God unless they change their world view and core belief to open themselves up for the "possibility" of God's existence. Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him

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So what happens to the millions of people that have never heard of Christianity or JC, the aboriginal people here in Australia, obscure tribes in Africa, and other nations… they just burn in hell do they??? as there never going have faith in your god as theve never heard of him, or heard of your religion.. and to not accept your god comes with a hot poker up the ass from a angry red man with horns..

A cursory knowledge of scripture would let you know that is not true. God will judge manking based on the knowledge they had. God is fair and merciful in his judgment.

steveOrino

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[funkcanna 0]

This question has been asked a few times in this thread but it keeps getting sidestepped...

To the Christians:
Why does god allow people to starve to death?

To know requires proof
To believe requires evidence
To have faith requires neither.
If you stick with that, we'll never be confused again

[steveorino 7]

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This question has been asked a few times in this thread but it keeps getting sidestepped...

To the Christians:
Why does god allow people to starve to death?

Why is God responsible? Over 22 billion dollars is spent on makeup -- think that might feed a few people?

steveOrino

[maadmax 0]

To the Christians:
Why does god allow people to starve to death?
____________________________________________

This question has be asked in many different ways.
The obvious answer is God has His own thoughts about how things should go. All we can ever see is small parts of the picture. As a Christian, I have faith that all things will work together for good for those who love God. If God had consulted with me, I definitely would have lobbied for an easier time for all of us. But I take great comfort in knowing God
is in control and that indeed ALL THING HAPPEN FOR A PURPOSE AND ULTIMATELY WILL WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD.

[pirana 0]

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So if you want to know how science will disprove god the answer is it most probably can't. If you want to know how science will all but disprove god, the answer is by continuing to fill in the gaps in our knowledge where god still finds refuge.

He then said that no one would listen anyway.

Those gaps are all but gone already. About the only realm left now is the one that will most likely always be there - the first small fraction of a second after the expansion we call the Big Bang, plus any time cycles that might have ocurred prior to the Big Bang.

Everything after that is understood at least well enough to not require divine intervention; and most of said previously or currently claimed intervention appears downright silly given the evidence.

So yeah, God's realm is now the brief period of time following the Big Bang (approximately 1 X 10 to the negative 30th power seconds) for which we can most likely never expect to explore.

Let's also remember that science does not have proving God does not exist as an agenda. Science just seeks information about the world. It is simply a consequence of the knowledge gained that religion looks to be more of a political sham than anything else. Sometimes knowledge takes people, or groups of people where they did not expect to go. That is one of the cold, unswerving, uncaring characteristics of real research.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[beowulf 1]

The biggest problem with religion/Belief in God is that it starts with a conclusion and then fits every thing to it. You will never be open to any other possibility. I am certainly open to the possibility of the existence of a god, but to date there has been no evidence to support it. You on the other hand are not open to the possibility that there is no god. You already have your conclusion.

[pirana 0]

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26 for a couple more months.

Whats that have to do with anything? I know plenty of old perverts who enjoy the hedonistic life.

Old pervert here - if you are using the term in a loose and good-humored fashion. (50's guy). Life (as in all of life, the composite of all living things) has no purpose. It has no intent as a whole; not even to propogate. It simply propogates as a matter of mechanism. That which is best suited (again, not with intent) to leave copies behind propogates best. It is what it is. Anything more is just reading in your own hopes and desires.

Individual lives however, do have purpose. You get to choose that. And therein lies THE dichotomy of Life.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[philh 0]

"Why is God responsible? Over 22 billion dollars is spent on makeup -- think that might feed a few people? "

Maybe god didnt install a universal morality in us after all eh ?
Maybe people assume god is responsible for suffering in the world becuase it says so in the bible:

Isaiah 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Now Ive heard some Christian apologists give the argument that the Hebrew word rah can just easily refer to calamity but it makes no difference, its all suffering and in the bible god claims responsibility. Is god a liar?

[pirana 0]

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I think it would be incredible naive to believe that religion will stand the test of time, now I don’t say this because I think that science will prove that Gods do not exist but because we will without doubt reach a point in time where our understanding of the universe, and the origins of man is so great and the evidence we have to support that understanding through the advancement in science, is simply so overwhelming that to still hold faith in a higher power will be absurd. Now this might not be for 100 years, or it might even be 500 years from now.

So why do I think this, well first of all science is constantly evolving and our knowledge and understanding is constantly growing, whilst religious understanding is stagnant and stuck in the past. An example of this would be Creationism, whilst science continues to examine evolution and the credible evidence to support it grows, Creationist simply sticks to the blanket statement that there was a creator, however still to this day have no supporting evidence because creationist do not look for that evidence, they do not test the theory of creation.

So if we take this example lets imagine where we will be in say 200,300 years, creationist will still be making the same untested claim, however by this time the body of evidence that science will have, compared to today will be enormous and will be continuing to grow. So it is logical to assume that there will be a point in time that evidence to support evolution is SO huge this it simply can’t be refuted, so where will that leave the creationist, and the believers..

If the criteria is that we have that level of knowledge, then the time is now - not 100 or 500 years from now.

If the criteria is that the bulk of the world's population get's theri head out of the sand and quits living in denial, then I'd agree on the 500 year estimate.

My opinion is based on the fact that learned people knew the Earth was round a couple thousand years before everyone finally got on board; and other such situations. Also, as a matter of official record, it took the Vatican about 450 years to formally recognize Galileo was right and that he should not have been detained. So whether it is the huddled masses accepting information and begrudgingly changing, or the religious elite finally swallowing their pride and caving; religious beliefs and pride die very hard.

And again, this is just an aside with the cultural trainwreck of religious beliefs of human manufacture running their course on some sort of parallel track that is way way behind schedule.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[steveorino 7]

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The biggest problem with religion/Belief in God is that it starts with a conclusion and then fits every thing to it. You will never be open to any other possibility. I am certainly open to the possibility of the existence of a god, but to date there has been no evidence to support it. You on the other hand are not open to the possibility that there is no god. You already have your conclusion.

You are right. I do have a core belief there is a God. It permeates my thinking. Should I apologize for my convictions and beliefs as they apply to me and my family?

steveOrino

[pirana 0]

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That is what they should think. As to what they think ... I don't play that game. I don't know what ANYONE else thinks. Surely some act like they think they ar ebetter. they shouldn't. Galatians 6:3-4 If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else,

I think you have it backwards. What they think is what it is. It's not a game. Thinking that there is something they should think is playing a game.

It's very easy to find out what people actually think. Ask them. No game in that, just gathering information.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[steveorino 7]

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"Why is God responsible? Over 22 billion dollars is spent on makeup -- think that might feed a few people? "

Maybe god didnt install a universal morality in us after all eh ?
Maybe people assume god is responsible for suffering in the world becuase it says so in the bible:

Isaiah 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Now Ive heard some Christian apologists give the argument that the Hebrew word rah can just easily refer to calamity but it makes no difference, its all suffering and in the bible god claims responsibility. Is god a liar?

Poor exegesis. There is a world of difference between God's admonishment to the King Cyrus that He (God) can either bless the king or curse him, and God claiming that he (God) is responsible for all calamities.

Of course, if it proves your point, I can see why you cherry pick a verse out of context, but a freshman level bible student would laugh at your assertion.

steveOrino

[pirana 0]

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Why is it a cop out? You don't believe he exists so you will disallow everything he can do to show you he does exist, just as a fundy christian disallows everything science shows him that the earth is older than 6,000 years. no?

The critical thinking atheists I know are all open to possibilities; they just require something more than a request for blind faith. That is about as far on the other end of the spectrum as you can get from the fundamentalists that deny empirical evidence.

I am personally very open to all kinds of things I may not currently believe in - such as alien visitations, dieties, ghosts, and the like. Just give me something, anything, other than a request for blind faith.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[beowulf 1]

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The biggest problem with religion/Belief in God is that it starts with a conclusion and then fits every thing to it. You will never be open to any other possibility. I am certainly open to the possibility of the existence of a god, but to date there has been no evidence to support it. You on the other hand are not open to the possibility that there is no god. You already have your conclusion.

You are right. I do have a core belief there is a God. It permeates my thinking. Should I apologize for my convictions and beliefs as they apply to me and my family?

Apologize? I don't understand your reply. What I was trying to point out is that you think we should be open to the possibility of god, yet you are not open to the possibility that god does not exist.

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Actually, I didn't say you had to believe in God to see Him, I said you must be open to the possibility of his existence or you will dismiss any evidence he gives of his existence.

I submit that that makes you the close minded one in this discussion. It is apparent that religion is an emotional conclusion and not a logical conclusion. Yet you try to endow it with a certain amount of logic. You don't seem to be able to see the failure in your logic. You might consider taking a critical thinking class.