NCclimber 0 #501 August 22, 2007 QuoteWhy is it a cop out? You don't believe he exists so you will disallow everything he can do to show you he does exist, just as a fundy christian disallows everything science shows him that the earth is older than 6,000 years. no? Excellent analogy. Some people seem to operate exclusively from the position of trying to misunderstand others or focusing on ways to discount/discredit other's points. I'm guilty of doing this, especially with those less civil. But generally speaking I prefer to get what the other person is saying and see it how it jibes with my worldview. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #502 August 22, 2007 If you came up with something that actually made sense then there would be no misunderstanding. There still is no evidence of any gods much less the Christian God. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #503 August 22, 2007 Quote The simple truth is that I have never, ever heard an explanation of why Jesus' sacrifice was either a) required or b) effective that did not, at some point, involve a variation of the phrase "You can't understand unless you believe" or "God's logic doesn't make sense to humans". You have never studied soteriology either. It explains it quite well. But you'd rather have it in a snippit that while fits in a forum thread that doesn't do it justice. Rather it is simply compared to "fairyology" Not an intellectually honest approach. IMHO. It is the same way many fundies ignore science. As far as making sense to humans I beg to differ. About 80% of humans are open to the idea of God according to a recent survey I read. Of the remaining 20% that do not belief in a diety of any form, 16% are simply agnostic, and about 4% are claiming to be atheist. If those stats are "close" to being true, I'd say humans have a great capacity to accept the idea that having faith in the existence of God is key to understanding him makes a lot of sense. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #504 August 22, 2007 God is a throw back to ancient times when nearly everything was attributed to a god. I can understand why people want to believe in a god. It still is not logical to believe there is a god. The belief in gods is not logical at all. For you to analyze the Bible assuming that it was written by God is an excercise of your imagination. God is something you want to believe so you believe despite the logical fallacies involved in believing. The way the Bible was written it has convenient catch alls for everything. When you ask hard questions, well that is God's way and who are we to question God. Faith is what is used to keep people from thinking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,259 #505 August 22, 2007 QuoteYou have never studied soteriology either. It explains it quite well. But you'd rather have it in a snippit that while fits in a forum thread that doesn't do it justice. Rather it is simply compared to "fairyology" Not an intellectually honest approach. IMHO. It is the same way many fundies ignore science. I'd rather have an explanation that makes sense. Point me to a website that explains it? QuoteIf those stats are "close" to being true, I'd say humans have a great capacity to accept the idea that having faith in the existence of God is key to understanding him makes a lot of sense. Huh? No, that just doesn't follow. All it shows is that humans have a predisposition to believe in something, it says nothing about 'understanding'.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #506 August 22, 2007 QuoteAs far as making sense to humans I beg to differ. About 80% of humans are open to the idea of God according to a recent survey I read. Of the remaining 20% that do not belief in a diety of any form, 16% are simply agnostic, and about 4% are claiming to be atheist. Depends on the group of humans. From Larson et al "Leading Scientists Still Reject God." Nature, 1998; 394, 313. Larson and Witham present the results of a replication of 1913 and 1933 surveys by James H. Leuba. In those surveys, Leuba mailed a questionnaire to leading scientists asking about their belief in "a God in intellectual and affective communication with humankind" and in "personal immortality". Larson and Witham used the same wording [as in the Leuba studies], and sent their questionnaire to 517 members of the [U.S.] National Academy of Sciences from the biological and physical sciences (the latter including mathematicians, physicists and astronomers). The return rate was slightly over 50%. The results were as follows (figures in %): BELIEF IN PERSONAL GOD 1914 1933 1998 Personal belief 27.7 15 7.0 Personal disbelief 52.7 68 72.2 Doubt or agnosticism 20.9 17 20.8 BELIEF IN IMMORTALITY 1914 1933 1998 Personal belief 35.2 18 7.9 Personal disbelief 25.4 53 76.7 Doubt or agnosticism 43.7 29 23.3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #507 August 22, 2007 QuoteYou have never studied soteriology either. It explains it quite well. But you'd rather have it in a snippit that while fits in a forum thread that doesn't do it justice. Rather it is simply compared to "fairyology" Not an intellectually honest approach. IMHO. It is the same way many fundies ignore science. As far as making sense to humans I beg to differ. About 80% of humans are open to the idea of God according to a recent survey I read. Of the remaining 20% that do not belief in a diety of any form, 16% are simply agnostic, and about 4% are claiming to be atheist. If those stats are "close" to being true, I'd say humans have a great capacity to accept the idea that having faith in the existence of God is key to understanding him makes a lot of sense. If lots of people believe then it must true? Is that what you are trying to say? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #508 August 22, 2007 QuoteQuoteYou have never studied soteriology either. It explains it quite well. But you'd rather have it in a snippit that while fits in a forum thread that doesn't do it justice. Rather it is simply compared to "fairyology" Not an intellectually honest approach. IMHO. It is the same way many fundies ignore science. I'd rather have an explanation that makes sense. Point me to a website that explains it? Honestly, my studies in theology have been more academic in nature, not internet surfing. Therefore, I don't know any websites that adequately instruct soteriology. If you'd like I can get into my attic and unbox some books from my studies and point you into that direction. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #509 August 22, 2007 QuoteQuoteYou have never studied soteriology either. It explains it quite well. But you'd rather have it in a snippit that while fits in a forum thread that doesn't do it justice. Rather it is simply compared to "fairyology" Not an intellectually honest approach. IMHO. It is the same way many fundies ignore science. As far as making sense to humans I beg to differ. About 80% of humans are open to the idea of God according to a recent survey I read. Of the remaining 20% that do not belief in a diety of any form, 16% are simply agnostic, and about 4% are claiming to be atheist. If those stats are "close" to being true, I'd say humans have a great capacity to accept the idea that having faith in the existence of God is key to understanding him makes a lot of sense. If lots of people believe then it must true? Is that what you are trying to say? No, I was debunking the statement "God's logic doesn't make sense to humans". steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,259 #510 August 22, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteYou have never studied soteriology either. It explains it quite well. But you'd rather have it in a snippit that while fits in a forum thread that doesn't do it justice. Rather it is simply compared to "fairyology" Not an intellectually honest approach. IMHO. It is the same way many fundies ignore science. As far as making sense to humans I beg to differ. About 80% of humans are open to the idea of God according to a recent survey I read. Of the remaining 20% that do not belief in a diety of any form, 16% are simply agnostic, and about 4% are claiming to be atheist. If those stats are "close" to being true, I'd say humans have a great capacity to accept the idea that having faith in the existence of God is key to understanding him makes a lot of sense. If lots of people believe then it must true? Is that what you are trying to say? No, I was debunking the statement "God's logic doesn't make sense to humans". It's not my statement, it comes from born again christians on this very website, so again, your conclusion doesn't follow from the numbers you presented.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #511 August 22, 2007 You didn't do a very good job. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #512 August 22, 2007 Quotewait is that sarcasism? ;) jk Would you concede that many, if not even a majority of those who are highly religious do? (Use your own judgement as to what is *highly*) Would you concede that many, if not even a majority of those who call themselves "atheists" consider those that aren't are 'lesser' in some way? It's certainly true here. (I believe that there is a small element in any group that will always feel that way (to an extent beyond 'normal' as every single individual likely has some element of this). To assume that "even a majority" of religious types are that way is goofy. Especially when you see the self righteousness and condescending attitudes of the "religiously" atheistic types here. But, even there, I don't consider them representative of atheists as a whole. They are just the outspoken that make the rest look like judgmental weirdos. Just like the religious minority they base their stereotype on.) Or, one could just continue to refine what they call "highly" (religious or non-religious) until that term is defined by "self righteous" participants in their belief system. Then we can say the 'majority' are self superior asswipes and it would be true. Of course, 1 in every 10 human beings is like a self superior asswipe, so it's not a difficult exercise. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #513 August 22, 2007 Quote You didn't do a very good job. Eh, I will not be able to sleep at night now. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #514 August 22, 2007 "just as a fundy christian disallows everything science shows him that the earth is older than 6,000 years. no? " There s a huge difference here. The evidence presented by science is testable and verifiable. That is not the same fore religion so you cannot make that comparison. "I realize according to scripture true atheists will never see God unless they change their world view and core belief to open themselves up for the "possibility" of God's existence. Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" This argument is idenitcal to: "if you start with your conlcusion you will get you conclusion." Of course if you start off assuming god exists you will conclude he does. But why should we start there? because of faith? faith is just intellectual laziness. can you seriously not see your circular reasoning? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #515 August 22, 2007 Actually, I didn't say you had to believe in God to see Him, I said you must be open to the possibility of his existence or you will dismiss any evidence he gives of his existence. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #516 August 22, 2007 If there were actual evidence of God then I would believe in God. There isn't any evidence of any god at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #517 August 22, 2007 QuoteIf there were actual evidence of God then I would believe in God. There isn't any evidence of any god at all. So are you saying you are open to the possibility of the existence of God? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #518 August 22, 2007 If there is evidence that can be tested and verified then yes. Any logical person would have to believe. Faith is for people who don't question. If it makes sense then I will believe in it. So far nothing you have said has made any sense and nothing I have read about any religion makes me believe in them or their gods. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #519 August 22, 2007 Then I suppose you are agnostic, not an atheist steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #520 August 22, 2007 I grew up around Christianity and was brought up to believe. It never really made sense to me, but being that it was what I was taught from birth I went allong and didn't start questioning till I got older. When I did start questioning I stopped believing. It didn't make sense. I couldn't find any evidence or reason to believe a god exists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #521 August 22, 2007 QuoteThen I suppose you are agnostic, not an atheist Whatever. I really don't see the difference. Atheists believe in what can be proven by science. If God could be proven by science then Kallend would probably believe in God. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #522 August 22, 2007 Quote If God could be proven by science then Kallend would probably believe in God. He'd deny it unless the science was there AND god was a socialist. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #523 August 22, 2007 QuoteI really don't see the difference. Atheists believe in what can be proven by science. I thought that athiests believe there is no god. Agnostics believe that the possibility exists of god, but have no proof of it, so don't really believe in one. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #524 August 22, 2007 The possibility is so remote that it isn't even a consideration. Not only that if there were an actual god, I find it highly unlikely that he would resemble any described by any religion. I can't really say that there is no possibility of god, but that the possibility is so remote and unlikely considering the evidence available. Also taking into account human psychology, I believe gods are a construct of the human mind. It is a way to explain what cannot be explained. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #525 August 22, 2007 QuoteFrom Larson et al "Leading Scientists Still Reject God." Nature, 1998; 394, 313. Larson and Witham present the results of a replication of 1913 and 1933 surveys by James H. Leuba. In those surveys, Leuba mailed a questionnaire to leading scientists asking about their belief in "a God in intellectual and affective communication with humankind" and in "personal immortality". Larson and Witham used the same wording [as in the Leuba studies], and sent their questionnaire to 517 members of the [U.S.] National Academy of Sciences from the biological and physical sciences (the latter including mathematicians, physicists and astronomers). The return rate was slightly over 50%. The results were as follows (figures in %): BELIEF IN PERSONAL GOD 1914 1933 1998 Personal belief 27.7 15 7.0 Personal disbelief 52.7 68 72.2 Doubt or agnosticism 20.9 17 20.8 BELIEF IN IMMORTALITY 1914 1933 1998 Personal belief 35.2 18 7.9 Personal disbelief 25.4 53 76.7 Doubt or agnosticism 43.7 29 23.3 I wonder how these studies are done. Here's one with dramatically different results. http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/050811_scientists_god.html QuoteAbout two-thirds of scientists believe in God, according to a new survey that uncovered stark differences based on the type of research they do.... In separate work at the University of Chicago, released in June, 76 percent of doctors said they believed in God and 59 percent believe in some sort of afterlife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
