Does anyone here (besides me) think this is ominous?

[base428 1]

It IS outrageous.....I work for a US military contractor.

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PS. I just started a project where the lead software engineers are in India.

That's outrageous.
Let's sue them.

(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only

[rehmwa 2]

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<>

No, that's outSourcing.... jeeeezzzz

You got that right, shame on base428 for stealing jobs from India

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[shropshire 0]

I only make light of it because it really stinks. Our company is doing it to us too.

The lads and lasses that we work with in India are great and you can't blame them, but on the otherhand............. the company makes my blood boil

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[NCclimber 0]

Is this more or less ominous than...

Global Warming?
Hubbert's Peak?
The federal debt?
The trade deficit?
The weakening dollar?
The healthcare crisis?
The future of Social Security?
Washington's culture of corruption?
The meth epidemic?
The AIDS epidemic?
Ultra-Fundie Christians controlling the White House?
Internet predators?
Low ratings for last night's Oscars?
Britney's mental health?

Some times I don't know how I can face a new day.

[shropshire 0]

Dark room and lots of deep breaths...... off you go and dont come out 'till you're called

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Lucky... 0]

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Well, it seems many of us DZdotcommers are tired of the USA being a world power. This looks like it might help, unless the Indians come over here lik ethe Germans did.

Just becuase we point things out doesn't mean we advocate them.

[Lucky... 0]

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Is this more or less ominous than...

Global Warming?
Hubbert's Peak?
The federal debt?
The trade deficit?
The weakening dollar?
The healthcare crisis?
The future of Social Security?
Washington's culture of corruption?
The meth epidemic?
The AIDS epidemic?
Ultra-Fundie Christians controlling the White House?
Internet predators?
Low ratings for last night's Oscars?
Britney's mental health?

Some times I don't know how I can face a new day.

Well, we try talk those subjects and all we get is rhetoric, so we think that starting small and working up might help.

[NCclimber 0]

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Well, we try talk those subjects and all we get is rhetoric,

You am wrong.

[TheAnvil 0]

I most definitely do. I think the status of education in this country is abominable, and that we as a nation need to make it a national priority. Sadly, neither party has the political drive to do so, so it seems.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[sundevil777 94]

After getting completely fed up with being a mechanical design engineer after 18 years with aerospace and automotive OEMs, I really can't recommend it to my kids - at least not design engineering.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[wmw999 2,129]

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after 18 years
...
I really can't recommend it to my kids - at least not design engineering

What didn't you like about it? What would make it better?

In the 1950's, my dad did a survey of engineering graduates of Northeastern (where he went). Already, I think about 50% of them were out of engineering, but most of them were in technical management.

There are (a few) folks here who have been doing the same kind of technical work for nearly 30 years (it's an old system). But most move into other directions, but most of those directions make some use of the analytical skill that their engineering degree gives them.

How many people want to do the same thing for 30 years (well, except for college professors ). Note: When I say "the same thing" I mean job description. There is nothing monotonous about being a college professor, and he loved it.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[crwtom 0]

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See the attached graph.

only marginally familiar with engineering careers - but as far as I
know it is quite non-trivial for example for a civil engineer trained
in one country to do work in another country. Even between
countries in the EU and the US standards are different enough
to send a transfer engineer back to school for a few semesters.

To get a feel for the differences in standard between first and
third world engineering look at some recent earth quakes and
their effects in terms of collapsed buildings and casualties at the
same strength on the Richter scale.

Another example that come to mind is not in engineering but
quite similarly coding. Recently I had to look around for PHP
coders which was quite educational in terms of outsourcing.
On the one hand you had domestic coders who asked for up
to $300/hr (domestic average was around $50/hr). On the other
hand you had coders from India who advertised over the web
for as low as $5/hr.

Then you ask yourself - why are the domestic ones even still in
business at these price differences. What I learned soon
after was that there are huge differences in quality. Many people
simply cannot afford that a program maybe works, is maybe
efficient, that the coder maybe communicates well with you etc.

My impression is that thus far the technology outsourcing to the
third world on a larger scale is still restricted to a things that
require only a rather mediocre/low level of quality and reliability.
The high reliability/quality end still belongs to the first world but
can, of course, also be lost by negelegt of domestic education.

Cheers, T

*******************************************************************
Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[kallend 1,635]

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How many people want to do the same thing for 30 years (well, except for college professors )

Wendy W.

You know better than that, Wendy. I bet your dad had a varied and interesting career.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[davedlg 0]

It means job security for me (an engineer)

There are a lot of things that can be taken from that. Some people blame the education system. I think it is more of a societal thing.

It was explained to me (by an Indian engineer) like this: Most American parents dream of their kids becoming a quarterback in the NFL, while most Indian parents dream of their kids becoming a doctor or engineer.

The fact is, engineering school is tough and there is a lack of motivation for kids to go through with it. Why spend 4 years working your brains out in college, when you could be a psych major and party every night? Parents simply aren't bringing their kids up in a way that makes them want to study difficult subjects, and that is a product of our society. Sure, spending more on education might help push a few more kids in that direction, but it would take a major change of society to change those numbers.

This does open up another debate though...given that we aren't graduating enough engineers, and other countries are, we have a demand for engineers in this country. One of the surest ways a to get a work permit in this country is to major in engineering.

[Lucky... 0]

Well, some people have…..

THE CLINTON LEGISLATIVE PACKAGE FOR EDUCATION:
Bills enacted by the 103rd Congress


http://www.ed.gov/PressReleases/10-1994/legis.html

THE GOALS 2000:

- EDUCATE AMERICA ACT
- THE SAFE SCHOOLS ACT
- THE EDUCATIONAL RESEARCH, DEVELOPMENT, DISSEMINATION AND IMPROVEMENT ACT
- THE SCHOOL-TO-WORK OPPORTUNITIES ACT
- THE IMPROVING AMERICA'S SCHOOLS ACT
- THE NATIONAL SERVICE TRUST ACT
- THE STUDENT LOAN REFORM ACT



http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/Accomplishments/additional.htmlEducation: Largest Investment in Education in 30 Years

- Opening the Doors of College to All Americans. President Clinton proposed and enacted the HOPE Scholarships and Lifetime Learning tax credits, which in 1999 were claimed by an estimated 10 million American families struggling to pay for college. The HOPE Scholarship helps make the first two years of college universally available by providing a tax credit of up to $1,500 for tuition and fees for the first two years of college. The Lifetime Learning Tax Credit provides a 20 percent tax credit on the first $5,000 of tuition and fees for students beyond the first two years of college, or taking classes part-time (in 2003, this increases to $10,000 of tuition and fees). In his FY 2001 budget, the President has proposed expanding the Lifetime Learning tax credit with a College Opportunity tax cut, which will give families the option of taking a tax deduction or claiming a 28 percent credit for the first $5,000 of college tuition and fees until 2002, and $10,000 thereafter. [Education Department, 4/2/99; Treasury Department; FY 2001 Budget, p. 49]

- Expanding Work Study and Pell Grants. One million students can now work their way through college because of the President's expansion of the Work Study Program, and nearly four million students will receive a Pell Grant of up to $3,300, the largest maximum award ever. The maximum award has increased 43 percent under the Clinton-Gore Administration. This year President Clinton proposed a $77 million increase in Work Study to continue to support one million awards, and a $200 increase in the Pell Grant maximum award, to raise it to $3,500. [Education Department, Office of Student Financial Assistance, Interim Performance Objectives, Final Report FY99; FY 2001 Budget, p. 50]

- Making College More Affordable. The Clinton-Gore Administration has cut student fees and interest rates on all loans, expanded repayment options including income contingent repayment, and improved service through the Direct Loan Program. Students have saved $8.7 billion since 1993 through the reduction in loan fees and interest rates. [Department of Education, Statement by Secretary Riley, 10/5/99]

- More High-Quality Teachers with Smaller Class Sizes. The Clinton-Gore Administration won a second installment of $1.3 billion for the President’s plan to hire an additional 100,000 well-prepared teachers to reduce class size in the early grades, when children learn to read and master the basic skills. Already, 29,000 teachers have been hired through this initiative. This year's budget provides $1.75 billion, a $450 million increase -- enough to fund nearly 49,000 teachers. [Education Department, Local Success Stories - Reducing Class Size, 11/99; FY 2001 Budget, p. 44]

- Turning Around Failing Schools. 11 million low-income students in 13,000 school districts now benefit from higher expectations and a challenging curriculum geared to higher standards through Title I-Aid to Disadvantaged Students. The FY 2000 budget provides a $134 million accountability fund to help turn around the worst performing schools through such measures as overhauling curriculum, improving staffing, or even closing schools and reopening them as charter schools. This year, the President is proposing to nearly double investment in this fund to $250 million to help ensure all children receive a quality education. [Education Department, Challenging the Status Quo: The Education Record, 1993-2000, 4/00; FY 2001 budget, p. 42]

- Providing Safe After-School Opportunities for 850,000 Students Each Year. The 21st Century Community Learning Centers program will provide enriching after-school and summer school opportunities for 850,000 school-age children in rural and urban communities in FY 2000. Extended learning time has not only been shown to increase achievement in reading and math, but to decrease youth violence and drug use. Funding for this program more than doubled from FY 1999 to FY 2000. For FY 2001, the President's budget calls on Congress to invest $1 billion in 21st Century Community Learning Centers and to ensure that all children in failing schools have access to quality after-school and summer school opportunities. This proposal will double funding and triple the number of students served to 2.5 million. [FY 2001 Budget, p.44]

- Expanding Choice and Accountability in Public Schools. The Clinton-Gore Administration has worked to expand public school choice and support the growth of public charter schools, which have increased from one public charter school in the nation when the President was first elected to 2,000 today. More than 250,000 students nationwide are now enrolled in charter schools in 30 states and the District of Columbia. The President won $145 million in FY 2000 -- and has proposed $175 million in his FY 2001 budget -- to continue working toward his goal of establishing 3,000 quality charter schools by 2002. [Education Department Press Release, 8/28/99; FY 2001 Budget, p. 47]

- Teaching Every Child to Read. The President challenged Americans to commit to the effort to ensure that every child can read well and independently by the third grade -- 1,400 colleges and universities took up his challenge, and 26,700 college work-study students now serve as reading tutors to help every child learn to read. [Education Department, Challenging the Status Quo: The Education Record, 1993-2000, 4/00]

- Expanding Access to Technology. With the Vice President's leadership, the Clinton-Gore Administration has made increasing access to technology a top priority. The President and Vice President created the Technology Literacy Challenge Fund to help connect every school to the Internet, increase the number of multimedia computers in the classroom and provide technology training for teachers. They increased overall investments in educational technology from $23 million in 1993 to $769 million in FY 2000, and tripled funding for Community Technology Centers to reach at least 120 low-income communities. Through the E-rate program, they secured low-cost connections to the Internet for schools, libraries, rural health clinics and hospitals, benefiting more than 80 percent of America's public schools. They also increased investment in education research to ensure all children benefit from educational technology. In 1999, 95 percent of public schools were connected to the Internet -- up from just 35 percent in 1994. [FY 2000 Budget, p. 67; National Center for Education Statistics, Stats in Brief NCES 2000-086, 2/00]

- Supporting Local Education Reform Efforts. The President signed the Education Flexibility Partnership Act of 1999 (Ed-Flex) into law in April 1999, giving all states greater flexibility in the use of federal education funds in exchange for greater accountability for helping all students reach high academic standards. [PL 106-25, 4/29/99]

- Established the GEAR UP Mentoring Program for Middle School Children. President Clinton and Vice President Gore created and expanded GEAR UP, a nationwide mentoring initiative, to help over 750,000 low-income middle school children finish school and prepare for college. The President's FY 2001 budget would expand services to 1.4 million students. [Education Department; FY 2001 Budget, p. 237]

- Providing Early Education to Nearly 900,000 Children with Head Start. The President and Vice President have expanded Head Start funding by 90 percent since 1993. Head Start will reach approximately 880,000 low-income children in FY 2000 and, with the President's proposed increase for the program, will be on the way to reaching the President's goal of serving 1 million children and their families by the year 2002. The Administration also created Early Head Start, bringing Head Start's successful comprehensive services to families with children ages zero to three, and set high quality standards for both programs. [HHS, Administration of Children and Families]

[wmw999 2,129]

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You know better than that, Wendy. I bet your dad had a varied and interesting career

That's what I mean -- he loved it the whole time. Was proud of having taught at least one college class in each decade from the 40's to the 00's.

When I say "same thing" I guess I mean "same title." Because no, it's never the same.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kelpdiver 2]

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My impression is that thus far the technology outsourcing to the
third world on a larger scale is still restricted to a things that
require only a rather mediocre/low level of quality and reliability.

If you mean successful outsourcing, yes. But many attempts are made in spite of this apparent truth.

[steveorino 7]

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Well, it seems many of us DZdotcommers are tired of the USA being a world power. This looks like it might help, unless the Indians come over here lik ethe Germans did.

Just becuase we point things out doesn't mean we advocate them.

Personally, I'm tired of USA being the "super power" Let someone else nanny the world.

steveOrino

[warpedskydiver 0]

Personally, I'm tired of USA being the "super power" Let someone else nanny the world.

[Richards 0]

Now is education fully funded in India and China (I honestly do not know)? I would be curious to see if it just relates to engineering or if this pattern persists in other feilds, and if so how much is due to the rising cost of education in the west? Are those countries simply investing more in their human capital than us or is it purely a function of them having a more motivated population?

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[marcandalysse 0]

Doesn't bother me...someone creative has to manage those engineers, who usually can't see past their laptops!

I am sure plenty of gardeners got depressed when all the mexicans started toting lawnmowers, then they realized they could get the business, drive those laborers to a neighborhood, and then drink soda until they came back.....and make far more money without working up a sweat....

marc

"The reason angels can fly is that they take themselves so lightly." --GK Chesterton

[kallend 1,635]

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Doesn't bother me...someone creative has to manage those engineers, who usually can't see past their laptops!


marc

Creative managers - there's an oxymoron right up there with honest lawyers.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JerryBaumchen 1,050]

Hi wendy,

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How many people want to do the same thing for 30 years (well, except for college professors ). Note: When I say "the same thing" I mean job description. There is nothing monotonous about being a college professor, and he loved it.

I have a degree in Mech Engr. I spent 30 yrs in the same job. I loved the work I did & got to travel all over the USA and a very large chunk of the world; Asia, South America & Europe.

'Some' of us like the work that we do,

Jerry

PS) Now retired, the best job I've ever had.

[wmw999 2,129]

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'Some' of us like the work that we do,

Those are the people who can see the variety in the job that they do. Some can't it seems; just look at folks even in this thread who already left engineering.

I like job-hopping. If I could do that for a living I would. But who wants to pay you to be a quick study?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[BikerBabe 0]

Let me tell a little story.

A college graduate, american, female, etc etc...decided to apply for grad school at a major US university. Now, this grad's undergraduate degree was in aeronautical engineering, but she wanted to get a masters in electrical engineering. She had ONE EE class during her undergrad education. She was missing many fundamentals that every other EE grad student would be expected to have.

She applied, but didn't think she'd get in.

She did.

When she attended the orientation session, the EE department head said that over 600 people applied that year, and only 35 got in.

How the hell did she make it, as unqualified as she was?

Because out of the 600 applicants...wait for it...only FIVE (yes, i said FIVE) were american citizens. FIVE. Those five got an automatic slot.

Five. Out of 600.

Yes...it's ominous.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!