"Who Killed the Electric Car"

[tdog 0]

I just watched this DVD tonight thanks to Netflix.

I was shocked - not trying to make this a speakers corner conversation, but instead a recommendation to rent the movie... The movie documents the history of the EV1 electric car.

Basically in a time line:

California mandates a certain % of cars to be electric.

GM Makes the EV1 - and leases it in California to consumers.

Electric car charging stations are installed thru cities using tax payer money.

A new battery technology is invented that will outlast the life of the car - that GM buys.

The marketing person for GM has a waiting list of customers.

Then


A group funded by the oil companies and car manufactures protests the electric car mandates.

The car manufactures sue California.

The federal government sues California.

The government committee removes the mandate for cars to be electric under political pressure.

GM immediately stops making the EV1.

Lease holders of the EV1 are not allowed to purchase their autos at the end of the lease or renew the lease. GM repos all remaining EV1s.

All the EV1s get shipped off to the back country in Arizona - hidden from view - to be crushed - while a GM representative says "All cars will be recycled or given to universities, none will be crushed." Only a helicopter is able to get in to see the crushing.

Texaco purchases the battery company from GM that has the new promising battery technology - and closes the plant and stops making the batteries.

The remaining 90 fully working cars repossessed by GM in a Burbank lot are blocked in by protesters who have millions of dollars in cash asking to buy them. 28 days later they are crushed.

A few EV1s are disabled and sent to museums.



I would highly recommend this documentary.

[bps 0]

Interesting. I'm going to watch it now.

Like tens of thousands of others, I'm driving a Toyota Prius, and it is one of the smartest decisions I have ever made. It's not the answer to everything, but it is an important step in the right direction.

I don't think the oil companies will be able to stop the movement now. They'll try, but eventually, things have to change.

Bryan

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

Who Killed the Electric Car

Blame Canada!!! or was that Blame Alberta!!!

Quote

Like tens of thousands of others, I'm driving a Toyota Prius

I just had a vision in my head of a circus clown getting out of a miniature car with the thought of Bryan driving a Prius. LOL ... for those of you who don't know BPS, while I wouldn't call him a monsterous person, he's not exactly a small man. So yes Bryan, I'm sorry. But I can't help but think of funny circus clowns when I think of you driving your Toyota Prius.

Are you still in Idaho, back in Colorado or somewhere else? I unfortunately am no longer in Colorado.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[mrGuy 0]

You know who killed the electric Car??? It was the Public! People like to drive...and the electric car is like a toaster. Non-Exciting to drive. Maybe someday, but not yet.


Give me a fuel burning real car.

[akarunway 1]

Quote

You know who killed the electric Car??? It was the Public! People like to drive...and the electric car is like a toaster. Non-Exciting to drive. Maybe someday, but not yet.


Give me a fuel burning real car.

3 2 1 SC

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[kbordson 8]

Who is John Galt?

[Frenchy68 0]

Quote

People like to drive...

Doubt it. Otherwise most cars wouldn't be found in California, which is to driving what herpes is to mankind, or to put it more simply, what Keanu Reeves is to acting: a painful condition that just won't go away!
Most people don't really enjoy driving. To most, it's a social status thingie.
Life without having to be behind the wheel is quite exhilarating. Bike riding, cab riding, and this brand new concept called... walking!
Life is gooooooood

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Quote

People like to drive...

Doubt it. Otherwise most cars wouldn't be found in California, which is to driving what herpes is to mankind, or to put it more simply, what Keanu Reeves is to acting: a painful condition that just won't go away!
Most people don't really enjoy driving. To most, it's a social status thingie.
Life without having to be behind the wheel is quite exhilarating. Bike riding, cab riding, and this brand new concept called... walking!
Life is gooooooood

I enjoy driving my antique MG. I do about 300 miles a year in it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DJL 232]

Quote

I enjoy driving my antique MG. I do about 300 miles a year in it.

So you sometimes get to drive in to the end of the driveway...excellent driver...to the end of the driveway.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[freethefly 6]

Quote

Quote

People like to drive...

Doubt it. Otherwise most cars wouldn't be found in California, which is to driving what herpes is to mankind, or to put it more simply, what Keanu Reeves is to acting: a painful condition that just won't go away!
Most people don't really enjoy driving. To most, it's a social status thingie.
Life without having to be behind the wheel is quite exhilarating. Bike riding, cab riding, and this brand new concept called... walking!
Life is gooooooood

Obvious, you have never driven a Pro-Street 57 Chevy or a 500+ hp El Camino streetrod. I love to drive.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

People like to drive...

Doubt it. Otherwise most cars wouldn't be found in California, which is to driving what herpes is to mankind, or to put it more simply, what Keanu Reeves is to acting: a painful condition that just won't go away!
Most people don't really enjoy driving. To most, it's a social status thingie.
Life without having to be behind the wheel is quite exhilarating. Bike riding, cab riding, and this brand new concept called... walking!
Life is gooooooood

Obvious, you have never driven a Pro-Street 57 Chevy or a 500+ hp El Camino streetrod. I love to drive.

Here here!! Sorry Frenchy, your perception is a little off the mark. Most of us in the US like to drive, even in LA. Less than 15% of the area of the US is actually developed. Areas that are developed are for the most part done pretty well. California has a good infrastructure.

By the way, it was the ELECTRIC CAR that killed the ELECTRIC CAR. The California mandate still stands, but it was adjusted becase the "pure electric" car simply can't deliver the goods. A range less than 80 miles per charge, lack of infrastructure to plug them in, and the lack of ability to deliver the power requirements. Sure, they were good off the line, but that wasn't enough. Add the energy crisis that California got into in 2000 and that was the end of it.

The auto industry has achieved greater success, technologically, economically and environmentally, with hybrids than they ever would have if the original quotas for electric-only-systems remained in place.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[dbattman 0]

My former roomates father worked for Southern Co which leased EV1s for their fleet. Under requirements at the time a certain percentage of their fleet had to be alternative fuel, so he convinced them to lease a bunch of electric cars and than sub-lease them back to employees. This also made them available to test-drive by the general public provided you were over 25.

The EV1 absolutely, positively, ROCKED! That thing took off like a rocket with it's 137 HP electric drive and drove on rails. It was definitely NOT a glorified golf cart. It had a HUGE trunk on that thing and the batts could have been relocated to the trunk creating a four seat model that still had enough room for a few small suitcases or some groceries.

Check out this guy's real world experience.
Real world EV-1 experience

But you can't drive it longer distances! Whaaa! Quick chargers could juice you up in the time it took to walk into the Quick-E-Mart to take a leak and get a coffee. Instead of pulling into the highway rest stop every two hours or so to take a leak you stop for a leak and a ten minute quick charge. Or you pul into the station, plug in, grab coffee or stretch your legs for ten minutes and then hit the road again.

Why was it killed? I have my opinions but I was sad to see it go. Now we're all supposed to go HYBRID! That's right, buy the latest IT BURNS GASOLINE DELIVERED BY HUGE DIESEL SUCKING TRUCKS HYBRID because you care about the environment. Who cares if they don't really get the huge mileage increases? it's all your fault for driving the way you do anyways. Go in for your regular oil changes and old-technology inefficient mechanical drive train replacements that keep the car companies selling high-profit auto parts. So what if the Navy discovered the huge efficiency boosts with an electric drivetrain back in the 60s? These are cars, not boats. Everybody get ready- we'll be using FUEL CELLS in the next decade (eventually) powered by HYDROGEN (ooooooooooo!). And these HYDROGEN (oooooooooo!) IS EXPENSIVE TO PRODUCE USING LOTS OF ELECTRICITY AND VERY DIFFICULT TO STORE FUEL CELLS react in your car to produce what? ELECTRICITY FOR YOUR ELECTRIC CAR!!!

Schenanigans! Schenanigans I say! Harumph Harumph Harumph!

(Can you tell I ran out of thing to do at the job site?)

[billvon 2,400]

> You know who killed the electric Car??? It was the Public!

Hmm. How do you explain the hundreds of people demonstrating outside the impound lot, trying to get them to sell the cars to people?

If you really think that, the documentary is a great overview of what _really_ killed it.

>People like to drive...and the electric car is like a toaster. Non-Exciting to drive.

http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1

0 to 60 in 4 seconds is boring?

[tdog 0]

Quote

You know who killed the electric Car??? It was the Public! People like to drive...and the electric car is like a toaster. Non-Exciting to drive. Maybe someday, but not yet.


Give me a fuel burning real car.

The EV1 could beat a lot of gas cars off the line. 0 to 60 in 8 seconds.

This is actually slightly faster than the best selling car in 2000, the Toyota Camry - which took 8.8 seconds for 0 to 60.

So, it was more sporty than the most popular car, so your argument failed...

• Quote

[dbattman 0]

I drove it and loved it. Than I stood around for two hours and had the technical engineering discussion about the batts, the range, the charging station, the maintenance, the operating costs, plugging into your friends house to charge it up before driving home and throwing him $1 for the power, Southern Co plans for public charging stations, etc. etc.

Only hang up I saw was the higher initial cost, offset by a reduction in operating costs to about 20% of your current gas bill. But hey, after production quantity ramps up the cost will go down. Lot less maintenance as well. (Look what happened to the Prius- MSRP hovereing over $20k now.)

Than I said 'when can I buy one?'

'You can't. Lease only. No plans to change that in the future but we're working on them hard.'

Aargh!

[tdog 0]

Quote

By the way, it was the ELECTRIC CAR that killed the ELECTRIC CAR. The California mandate still stands, but it was adjusted becase the "pure electric" car simply can't deliver the goods. A range less than 80 miles per charge, lack of infrastructure to plug them in, and the lack of ability to deliver the power requirements.

90 % of all Californians could have used the electric car for their average daily business.

Assuming a family has two cars for two parents - they still could have the SUV for the weekend trips to wherever, and a EV1 for commuting to work/play.

Also, I lived in LA. I saw many "Electric Car Charging Station" signs... So there was ability to charge.

Also - think about it - in LA, when traffic stops (I was there last week, I was in bumper to bumper traffic on the 405, 101, 10 and 5 at every time of day) there is no energy consumption - so sitting in traffic does not ruin the range.

[ExAFO 0]

The lack of range and the long charging times killed the electric car for the time being.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[Mostly_Harmless 0]

Quote

Quote

By the way, it was the ELECTRIC CAR that killed the ELECTRIC CAR. The California mandate still stands, but it was adjusted becase the "pure electric" car simply can't deliver the goods. A range less than 80 miles per charge, lack of infrastructure to plug them in, and the lack of ability to deliver the power requirements.

90 % of all Californians could have used the electric car for their average daily business.

Assuming a family has two cars for two parents - they still could have the SUV for the weekend trips to wherever, and a EV1 for commuting to work/play.

Also, I lived in LA. I saw many "Electric Car Charging Station" signs... So there was ability to charge.

Also - think about it - in LA, when traffic stops (I was there last week, I was in bumper to bumper traffic on the 405, 101, 10 and 5 at every time of day) there is no energy consumption - so sitting in traffic does not ruin the range.

I agree with this kind of thinking. Right now if I could afford it I would have a hybrid for my commuting car and have a "toy" for the weekends. There is no reason to drive your 500HP Mustang to work everyday unless it's a beautiful day to do so. Does anyone know whats the average commute distance for people? As tdog said in traffic you are using barely any energy.

_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity

[billvon 2,400]

> The California mandate still stands, but it was adjusted becase the
>"pure electric" car simply can't deliver the goods.

It was adjusted because GM, Ford and Chrysler spent millions on the best lawyers in the business. Pure electrics were successfully introduced in a few cities several years back, then pulled off the streets out of fear that the CARB would see that they DO work.

After all, if there are electric cars being driven every day on LA streets, it's harder for your lawyers to claim it's impossible for them to work.

>The auto industry has achieved greater success, technologically,
> economically and environmentally, with hybrids than they ever would
>have if the original quotas for electric-only-systems remained in place.

Right. And had the PZEV mandate been struck down too, then the auto industry would have achieved greater success with gas guzzlers. Hybrids are not competitive out of the gate; they needed the incentive of the PZEV mandate to get them to the point where economies of scale took over. Electric cars - same thing.

[Zipp0 1]

If fossil fuels generate the electricity that charges the cars, isn't this whole argument rather pointless?

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[dbattman 0]

Quote

It was adjusted because GM, Ford and Chrysler spent millions on the best lawyers in the business. Pure electrics were successfully introduced in a few cities several years back, then pulled off the streets out of fear that the CARB would see that they DO work.

After all, if there are electric cars being driven every day on LA streets, it's harder for your lawyers to claim it's impossible for them to work.



Right. And had the PZEV mandate been struck down too, then the auto industry would have achieved greater success with gas guzzlers. Hybrids are not competitive out of the gate; they needed the incentive of the PZEV mandate to get them to the point where economies of scale took over. Electric cars - same thing.

Hopefully this will still change- pure electrics are still getting out there. Chattanooga has electric shuttle buses that run up and down mainstreet- great application. There was a research shop that leased building space from my grad school in Atlanta. They were working on a prototype for a pure electric school bus- another great application. Lots of stop and go, limited distances. How about FedEX or UPS, or the Postal service? Great places for pure electrics.

[tdog 0]

Quote

Does anyone know whats the average commute distance for people? As tdog said in traffic you are using barely any energy.

In LA, according to the documentary, I remember a number in the 20-30 miles range for the average daily use... Now, I don't know if that was one way or round trip. Either way, well within range. That is why the studies showed 90% of all the people could have had one with their use.

If you drive 15000 miles a year, that is 40 miles a day. 1/2 the range of the car with the generation 1 batteries, 1/3 to 1/4 the range with the generation 2 batteries.

[sundevil777 93]

GM isn't even the biggest car company anymore, their supposed legendary ability to kill new technological innovation is just not there.

Battery powered electric cars are only marketed in warm weather regions because they perform poorly when the weather is cold. I'll bet the impressive 0-60 times weren't done on a cold day.

Honda's electric car wasn't subject to the evil whims of GM execs, but they realize that it isn't ready for the mass market yet.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Quote

By the way, it was the ELECTRIC CAR that killed the ELECTRIC CAR. The California mandate still stands, but it was adjusted becase the "pure electric" car simply can't deliver the goods. A range less than 80 miles per charge, lack of infrastructure to plug them in, and the lack of ability to deliver the power requirements.

90 % of all Californians could have used the electric car for their average daily business.

Assuming a family has two cars for two parents - they still could have the SUV for the weekend trips to wherever, and a EV1 for commuting to work/play.

Also, I lived in LA. I saw many "Electric Car Charging Station" signs... So there was ability to charge.

Also - think about it - in LA, when traffic stops (I was there last week, I was in bumper to bumper traffic on the 405, 101, 10 and 5 at every time of day) there is no energy consumption - so sitting in traffic does not ruin the range.

LA is not the only city in California. Sitting in traffic will consume the battery at night (head lights), or in the summer sun running the AC or even the radio.

It was good initiative, but bad judgement. The technology isn't there yet, in fact, it still isn't there!! It wasn't viable to "jump a generation" in technology.

Also, if you lived there, then you know about the energy problems the state has been enduring since Enron went under.

Did the "traditional" industries lobby against the idea, I'm sure they did. Did they have to work too hard at it? Hell no.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[billvon 2,400]

>If fossil fuels generate the electricity that charges the cars, isn't this
>whole argument rather pointless?

Nope, still way more efficient. An electric car like the Tesla gets 135mpg (i.e. miles per gallon of fuel burned at a power plant.)

Plus which, it's easier to make electrial power some other way. I have an electric bicycle that I charge from a solar power system. No pollution/CO2 emissions whatsoever.