livendive 8 #26 August 30, 2006 Quote1948: Israel established. US declines to press Israel to allow expelled Palestinians to return. So the US is hated for doing nothing? 1956: US cuts off promised funding for Aswan Dam in Egypt after Egypt receives Eastern bloc arms. So the US is hated for not giving Egypt money? 1956: Israel, Britain, and France invade Egypt. US does not support invasion, but the involvement of its NATO allies severely diminishes Washington's reputation in the region. So the US is hated for the actions of Israel, Britain, and France? 1967-: US blocks any effort in the Security Council to enforce SC Resolution 242, calling for Israeli withdrawal from territories occupied in the 1967 war. Somehow it seems you skipped something. What's this about a 1967 war? 1970: Civil war between Jordan and PLO. Israel and US prepare to intervene on side of Jordan if Syria backs PLO. So the US is hated because it supported a legitimate government that was opposing terrorists? 1973: US military aid enables Israel to turn the tide in war with Syria and Egypt. Wasn't that war over pretty quickly back in 1967? 1980-88: Iran-Iraq war. When Iraq invades Iran, the US opposes any Security Council action to condemn the invasion. US soon removes Iraq from its list of nations supporting terrorism and allows US arms to be transferred to Iraq. You seem to have missed something about some US hostages having been taken by Iranians in 1979. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #27 August 30, 2006 QuoteWhat do you mean the same govenment? No more than we in GB have. True. You guys haven't had any civil wars in a while. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Everon 0 #28 August 30, 2006 It goes much deeper than this short list. For those interested, pick up a copy of "Saddam Hussein: The Politics of Revenge" by Said Aburish. The U.S.'s cynicism in its actions in the Middle East is well documented in this work. After reading it, you'll see that Darius's list makes the U.S. look like Mother Teresa. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #29 August 31, 2006 Quote200-300 BC - Mohammed Mohammed who? The Mohammed who founded Islam lived 570 -632 AD. what mohammed do you mean? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #30 August 31, 2006 You know the guy who opened the first Quicky Mart in Judea, do try and keep up old boyWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #31 August 31, 2006 Follow the links supplied for each Middle-East country. There is alot to read. Does give insight to why the U.S. is dispised by those whom were once supported by the U.S. http://www.socialist.nu/middle-east/"...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #32 August 31, 2006 Quote November 28, 1947 - UN Approves Isreali Partition November 29, 1947 - Arabs kill Jews in three separate attacks. May 14, 1948 - Israel declares independence May 14, 1948 - All neighbors attack Israel. 1948 - Israel, greatly outnumbered, takes more territory. 1948-1950 - over 750,000 Jews forced to leave bithplaces in Arab countries due to Anti-Jewish animosity. 1950-present - Israel under constant attack. And people wonder why Israel is so mean.... Wow. That's a bit one sided donchathink? First, did the UN partition plan ever get implemented? The BBC says "no" but that it was proposed, not accepted and then the Brits just left. I need to check up on that one. Secondly, do you blame the resident Palestinians for resisting the land grab? Thirdly, you forgot the massive looting and killing at the hands of the Israelis while they implemented the first wave of their expansion outside of their UN mandate and before they started their decades long policy of completely disregarding everything that the UN recommended, the very body that made their existence possible in the first place. Geez, and people wonder why the Palestians (of which there are 18 less in the last two days thanks to Israel's military, who promises to look into it) are so bitter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #33 August 31, 2006 QuoteThat's a bit one sided donchathink? Yep. IT is. All facts, mind you, but that's my point.. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #34 August 31, 2006 Saudi Aramco: Summary Chronography 1933 Saudi Arabia grants oil concession to California Arabian Standard Oil Company (Casoc), affiliate of Standard Oil of California (Socal, today's Chevron). Oil prospecting begins on Kingdom's east coast. 1936 Texas Company (now Texaco) acquires 50 percent interest in Socal's concession. 1938 Kingdom's first commercial oil field discovered at Dhahran. Crude is exported by barge to Bahrain. 1939 First tanker load of petroleum is exported. 1944 Casoc changes its name to Arabian American Oil Company (Aramco). 1945 Ras Tanura Refinery begins operations. 1948 Standard Oil of New Jersey (now Exxon) and Socony-Vacuum Oil (now Mobil) join Socal and Texaco as owners of Aramco. 1950 1,700-km Trans-Arabian Pipe Line (Tapline) is completed, linking Eastern Province oil fields to Lebanon and the Mediterranean. 1956 Aramco confirms scale of Ghawar and Safaniya, world's largest oil field and largest offshore field, respectively. 1961 Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) - propane and butane - is first processed at Ras Tanura and shipped to customers. 1966 Tankers begin calling at "Sea Island", new offshore crude oil loading platform off Ras Tanura. 1973 Saudi Government acquires 25 percent interest in Aramco. 1975 Master Gas System project is launched. 1980 Saudi Government acquires 100 percent participation interest in Aramco, purchasing almost all of the company's assets. 1981 East-West Pipelines, built for Aramco natural gas liquids and crude oil, link Eastern Province fields with Yanbu on the Red Sea. 1982 Exploration and Petroleum Engineering Center (EXPEC) opens in Dhahran. 1984 Company acquires its first four supertankers. 1987 East-West Crude Oil Pipeline expansion project is completed, boosting capacity to 3.2 million barrels per day (bpd). 1988 Saudi Arabian Oil Company, or Saudi Aramco, is established. 1989 High-quality oil and gas are discovered south of Riyadh - the first find outside original operating area. 1991 Company plays major role combating Gulf oil spill, the world's largest. 1992 East-West Crude Oil Pipeline capacity is boosted to 5 million bpd. Saudi Aramco affiliate purchases 35 percent interest in SsangYong Oil Refining Company of the Republic of Korea. 1993 Saudi Aramco takes charge of Kingdom's domestic refining, marketing, distribution and joint-venture refining interests. 1994 Maximum sustained crude-oil production capacity is returned to 10 million bpd. Company acquires a 40 percent equity interest in Petron, largest refiner in the Philippines. 1995 Company completes a program to build 15 very large crude carriers. Saudi Aramco President and CEO Ali I. Al-Naimi is named the Kingdom's Minister of Petroleum and Mineral Resources. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #35 August 31, 2006 Lets not forget that some time in the mid 70's opec was formed so that oil producing countries could control the production rate of oil and therefor the price they were paid for their product. Their was also a thing called the cold war, after WW2 which led to a arms race in the middle east we supplied our enemies enemy with weapons and the soviet union did likewise. So instead of fairly primitive weapons being used in the middle east conflicts the combatents could use the state of the art high tech stuff. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #36 August 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteThat's a bit one sided donchathink? Yep. IT is. All facts, mind you, but that's my point.. Here are some more facts, in case some are interested in broadening their perspective on the debate. http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story417.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #37 August 31, 2006 QuoteAll facts, mind you, Wrong facts. You're out about 900 years if we're thinking of the same Mohammed. 2 others have pointed this out - but you seem to be ignoring them. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,259 #38 August 31, 2006 QuoteNo, but we've had the same government for over 200. The same cannot be said of any other place, can it? Any other place? Um, yepDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #39 August 31, 2006 Not ignoring, Sir. I'm just not acknowledging that certain facts are not what I represented them to be. So, what I did was put out "facts." All were one-sided. Some of the facts were not quite correct. The casual observer wouldn't know this. Others DO know it and point it out. I simply don't acknowledge it. I had a point to make, so I bent my facts a bit. It so happens that this is par for the course in discussing middle east politics. So I didn't point out that Arabs were getting killed while Israelis were getting killed. So I didn't point out thay while Jews were being kicked out of Arab countries, Arabs were being kicked out of Israel. So I didn't point out that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are the primary basis for the claims of a Jewish conspiracy any more than I pointed out that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion were a forgery. So I got facts wrong. I didn't acknowledge it. Why would I acknowledge anything the opposition says? They are just out to destroy me. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #40 August 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteThat's a bit one sided donchathink? Yep. IT is. All facts, mind you, but that's my point.. Here are some more facts, in case some are interested in broadening their perspective on the debate. http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story417.html I think it's fair to apply the "consider the source" rule to this website. In another thread, you recently pointed out that the author of an opinion piece was from an American Zionist organization, implying (probably correctly) that she was not neutral. Certainly www.palestineremembered.com website is not neutral, either. Each side cherry-picks, and molds, the facts that they want to play up, and ignores, or minimizes, the facts that don't help their agenda. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
racer42 0 #41 August 31, 2006 You're an Aramco brat right? I lived in Dhahran and Abqaiq in the early 80's. My Dad designed the pipeline in the Ghawar field. My parents were there when terroists took over the Grand Mosque in Mecca. What the Saudi Royal family did to the Shia in the Eastern province is little known. It is estimated they murdered about 5,000 people in the al Hasa region. Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States, Kuwait, Syria...these aren't countries, they are family businesses.L.A.S.T. #24 Co-Founder Biscuit Brothers Freefly Team Electric Toaster #3 Co-Founder Team Non Sequitor Co-Founder Team Happy Sock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #42 August 31, 2006 QuoteYou're an Aramco brat right? I lived in Dhahran and Abqaiq in the early 80's. My Dad designed the pipeline in the Ghawar field. My parents were there when terroists took over the Grand Mosque in Mecca. What the Saudi Royal family did to the Shia in the Eastern province is little known. It is estimated they murdered about 5,000 people in the al Hasa region. Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States, Kuwait, Syria...these aren't countries, they are family businesses. Just answering the question about what contributions the US has made to the M.E. Although I do agree with you about family businesses. The better question IMO is what have these oil rich families done for their own people? Why is it that the Palestinians live in such poverty, yet Arafat was worth over $300 million? Perhaps before people start casting stones at their neighbors, they should look in their own backyards. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #43 August 31, 2006 Quote I think it's fair to apply the "consider the source" rule to this website. In another thread, you recently pointed out that the author of an opinion piece was from an American Zionist organization, implying (probably correctly) that she was not neutral. Certainly www.palestineremembered.com website is not neutral, either. Each side cherry-picks, and molds, the facts that they want to play up, and ignores, or minimizes, the facts that don't help their agenda. I agree to a certain extent and replied to your other post on this here, realistically in the wrong thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2411960;#2411960 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #44 August 31, 2006 Educate, eh? You've left out a few important facts in your timeline. Even without the missing events, it's pretty one sided. If you'd care to answer the embedded questons... 1948: Israel established. US declines to press Israel to allow expelled Palestinians to return. Why did the US do that? 1949: CIA backs military coup deposing elected government of Syria. Why? Include the US-Soviet Power struggle in your answer. 1953: CIA helps overthrow the democratically-elected Mossadeq government in Iran (which had nationalized the British oil company) leading to a quarter-century of repressive and dictatorial rule by the Shah, Mohammed Reza Pahlevi. Seizing the assets of a key US ally's company should equate to US support because.... The US had which indications that Pahlavi and his evil SAVAK would act as they did prior to supporting him? The US should have allowed the Soviets to expand their influence in the Middle East because... 1956: US cuts off promised funding for Aswan Dam in Egypt after Egypt receives Eastern bloc arms. The US should reward Egypt for getting friendly with US cold war enemies because... 1956: Israel, Britain, and France invade Egypt. US does not support invasion, but the involvement of its NATO allies severely diminishes Washington's reputation in the region. Ahhhh...the US does nothing and is therefore culpable. Would that the mullahs in Iran would feel responsible when their Hezbollah surrogates blow up innocents...instead they stand by and do nothing - except fund said surrogates even more, that is 1958: US troops land in Lebanon to preserve "stability." Why? What were the reasons troops were committed? early 1960s: US unsuccessfully attempts assassination of Iraqi leader, Abdul Karim Qassim. Why? 1963: US reported to give Iraqi Ba'ath party (soon to be headed by Saddam Hussein) names of communists to murder, which they do with vigor. the US should have allowed Soviet influence in the Middle East to expand during the cold war because... 1967-: US blocks any effort in the Security Council to enforce SC Resolution 242, calling for Israeli withdrawal from territories occupied in the 1967 war. The US should tick off its strongest Middle Eastern ally and force Israel to withdraw from territories it captured AFTER IT WAS ATTACKED by aggressors because... 1970: Civil war between Jordan and PLO. Israel and US prepare to intervene on side of Jordan if Syria backs PLO. The same PLO cowards who assassinated Israeli athletes? The same PLO cowards who beat the US ambassador and charge d'affairs to death in Sudan? Hmmm... 1972: US blocks Sadat's efforts to reach a peace agreement with Egypt. Why? 1973: US military aid enables Israel to turn the tide in war with Syria and Egypt. The US should not give its allies military assitance because... 1973-75: US supports Kurdish rebels in Iraq. When Iran reaches an agreement with Iraq in 1975 and seals the border, Iraq slaughters Kurds and US denies them refuge. Kissinger secretly explains that "covert action should not be confused with missionary work." Denies them refuge - how? 1978-79: Iranians begin demonstrations against the Shah. US tells Shah it supports him "without reservation" and urges him to act forcefully. Until the last minute, US tries to organize military coup to save the Shah, but to no avail. 1979-88: US begins covert aid to Mujahideen in Afghanistan six months before Soviet invasion in Dec. 1979. Over the next decade US provides training and more than $3 billion in arms and aid. Lots of history embedded into that time period. Characters such as Najibullah, Hekmatyar, Abdul Haq, Pakistani ISI, the Saudis, Massoud, et al all play roles in that era. 1980-88: Iran-Iraq war. When Iraq invades Iran, the US opposes any Security Council action to condemn the invasion. US soon removes Iraq from its list of nations supporting terrorism and allows US arms to be transferred to Iraq. At the same time, US lets Israel provide arms to Iran and in 1985 US provides arms directly (though secretly) to Iran. US provides intelligence information to Iraq. Iraq uses chemical weapons in 1984; US restores diplomatic relations with Iraq. In light of 444 days, the US action here is illogical how? Remember. Minor thing called the cold war going on then. 1987 US sends its navy into the Persian Gulf, taking Iraq's side; an overly-aggressive US ship shoots down an Iranian civilian airliner, killing 290. Perhaps Iranian gunboats shouldn't have attacked the Vincennes that morning, eh? Or the Iranians shouldn't have mined the Gulf in the first place? Or allowed civilian aircraft to operate out of military airports and fly towards US warships with anti-aircraft missiles on the same day Iranian gunboats attack the same warship? Vincennes shot the missile - no denying it. How about the rest of the circumstances for the whole story? 1981, 1986: US holds military maneuvers off the coast of Libya in waters claimed by Libya with the clear purpose of provoking Qaddafi. In 1981, a Libyan plane fires a missile and two Libyan planes shot down. In 1986, Libya fires missiles that land far from any target and US attacks Libyan patrol boats, killing 72, and shore installations. When a bomb goes off in a Berlin nightclub, killing two, the US charges that Qaddafi was behind it (possibly true) and conducts major bombing raids in Libya, killing dozens of civilians, including Qaddafi's adopted daughter. One of Reagan's great deeds - shutting that terrorist supporting sonofabitch the the hell up. 1982: US gives "green light" to Israeli invasion of Lebanon, killing more than 10,000 civilians. US chooses not to invoke its laws prohibiting Israeli use of US weapons except in self-defense. Israel always follows US direction? Some sailors aboard the USS LIBERTY might disagree with you. 1983: US troops sent to Lebanon as part of a multinational peacekeeping force; intervene on one side of a civil war. Withdraw after suicide bombing of marine barracks. This was not a good Reagan move 1984: US-backed rebels in Afghanistan fire on civilian airliner. And Iranian backed terrorists have killed a lot of people over the years. Is the Iranian gov't responsible? 1988: Saddam Hussein kills many thousands of his own Kurdish population and uses chemical weapons against them. The US increases its economic ties to Iraq. Yep, he sure did use chemical weapons...now where did they go, I wonder...where... 1990-91: US rejects any diplomatic settlement of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait (for example, rebuffing any attempt to link the two regional occupations, of Kuwait and of Palestine). US leads international coalition in war against Iraq. Civilian infrastructure targeted. To promote "stability" US refuses to aid post-war uprisings by Shi'ites in the south and Kurds in the north, denying the rebels access to captured Iraqi weapons and refusing to prohibit Iraqi helicopter flights. Linking the occupation of Kuwait and some nation people call Palestine (where are its borders, capital, history, etc again?) is ludicrous. Want to link the annexation of TX to Hawaiian statehood too? 1991-present: Devastating economic sanctions are imposed on Iraq. US and Britain block all attempts to lift them. Hundreds of thousands die. Though Security Council had stated that sanctions were to be lifted once Saddam Hussein's programs to develop weapons of mass destruction were ended, Washington makes it known that the sanctions would remain as long as Saddam remains in power. Sanctions in fact strengthen Saddam's position. Asked about the horrendous human consequences of the sanctions, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright declares that "the price is worth it." Why were the sanctions put in place? Why, exactly? 1993: US launches missile attack on Iraq, claiming self-defense against an alleged assassination attempt on former president Bush two months earlier. The US should allow state supported assassination attempts against its citizens to go unpunished because... 1998: US and UK bomb Iraq over the issue of weapons inspections, even though Security Council is just then meeting to discuss the matter. The US/UK should not enforce UN sanctions and resolutions without further UN authorization because... 1998: US destroys factory producing half of Sudan's pharmaceutical supply, claiming retaliation for attacks on US embassies in Tanzania and Kenya and that factory was involved in chemical warfare. US later acknowledges there is no evidence for the chemical warfare charge. This was a sad thing and a dumb move.Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #45 August 31, 2006 >US later acknowledges there is no evidence for the chemical warfare >charge. This was a sad thing and a dumb move. Remember them good old days? When we admitted our mistakes? If that happened today, we'd claim they were supplying terrorists with aspirin, and besides, it was probably a double use facility. Besides, it's all part of the war on terra! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #46 September 1, 2006 Ahhh. I think I'll read it again. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #47 September 1, 2006 My favorite "fact" is: 1979-88: US begins covert aid to Mujahideen in Afghanistan six months before Soviet invasion in Dec. 1979. Over the next decade US provides training and more than $3 billion in arms and aid. I was in SF in 77-80 and yes, we were helping not only the Mujahideen, but also the regular Afghan Army expel the "godless" soviets. I can see why the members of the former USSR din't like this, but please tell me -- why does this make us hated by the Muslim/Arab world??? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #48 September 1, 2006 > why does this make us hated by the Muslim/Arab world??? Perhaps because we are now systematically exterminating the islamic extremists we once funded? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #49 September 1, 2006 QuotePerhaps because we are now systematically exterminating the islamic extremists we once funded? Did anything happen or were we just fickle? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #50 September 1, 2006 >Did anything happen or were we just fickle? They stopped being "the enemy of our enemy" mainly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
